When did antisemitism start?

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phylo_roadking
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Re: When did antisemitism start?

#91

Post by phylo_roadking » 09 Jul 2009, 12:40

Dili -
As a constrast the heirs of Roman Empire and where the Pope lives was one of less Anti-semitic European countries in XX century, and they had Jewish people in important places, i am of course talking about Italy
...however -
It is reported that Italo Balbo as a protest against anti-semitic laws entered one of most famous Rome restaurants with some Jewish friends by arm
...would indeed argue that there was something to protest against :wink:

To return to "and they had Jewish people in important places"

- the human experience is that those with the abilities and the will to rise will do so both despite and possible BECAUSE of the adversity... :wink:

Sid Guttridge
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Re: When did antisemitism start?

#92

Post by Sid Guttridge » 10 Jul 2009, 19:12

Hi Bob,

You wrote, "I am partly referring to the pre-Christian Greeks and Romans............ I am also refering to all those other tribes, hordes, etc demonstrating a hatred to the followers of eg the Levitical decrees of allowed marriages, the strict dierary laws, the ritual of circumcision, inter alia."

However, I am still not sure to what you are specifically referring. Could you give some concrete examples?

How do these differ from general racism between other peoples? Circumcision, for example, is not simply practiced by Jews. Jews are not alone in having strict dietary laws, etc.

Cheers,

Sid.


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Saartje
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Re: When did antisemitism start?

#93

Post by Saartje » 11 Jul 2009, 00:14

I also think a really good question is antisemitism by who? Because the early Christians were just jumping on a really loooooong bandwagon when it came along. They certainly were not the original antisemites by any stretch of the imagination. The pre-Christianized Greeks and Romans had them beat by a long shot: anti-Jewish riots in Alexandria in the third century BCE; Philo of Alexandria describes a Jewish massacre in 38 CE; Suetonius mentions the expulsion of Jews from Rome on religious grounds by Tiberius, sending young Jewish men to unhealthy places deliberately, in the hopes that they would die out there; Josephus, the Jewish historian, details a long and bloody history between the Romans and the Jews in his book Antiquities of the Jews. The Roman-Jewish Wars aside (which as Bob points out very cogently, were about political unrest, not antisemitism), the Romans and the Jews had a number of go-arounds which were based not on Judaism as a political entity or religion, but as a racial or ethnic group.
Last edited by Saartje on 11 Jul 2009, 00:27, edited 1 time in total.

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phylo_roadking
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Re: When did antisemitism start?

#94

Post by phylo_roadking » 11 Jul 2009, 00:20

Ah, but the question is...were they (any of them) killing/enslaving/mistreating Jews BECAUSE they were Jews...or because they were simply NOT Roman/Greek/Egyption...etc.? 8O

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Saartje
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Re: When did antisemitism start?

#95

Post by Saartje » 11 Jul 2009, 02:51

Ah, but the question is...were they (any of them) killing/enslaving/mistreating Jews BECAUSE they were Jews...or because they were simply NOT Roman/Greek/Egyption...etc.? 8O
Good question, and one I don't have an answer to :P

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Re: When did antisemitism start?

#96

Post by Karl » 11 Jul 2009, 10:06

what does this oxymoron mean anyway?

South
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Re: When did antisemitism start?

#97

Post by South » 11 Jul 2009, 10:49

Good morning Sid,

(This is a second typing of a post. My first is lost in cyberspace. I'm typing from notes on 2 yellow stick-ons.)

For brevity and speed, let me rely on the concrete examples provided above by Saartje's post of 10 July at 17:14.

"Racism" can sometimes be a "loaded" term, especially where I write from. It is not definitive not allowing for accuracy. Plus, if Moses wife, Ziporrah, was a black women, racism wouldn't enter into the equation as we're working it here.

I quoted Sigmund Freud on his theme where he discusses - differences - contributing to hatred. Let me add the economic component. If King David's unified tribe makes economic contributions to an alien tribe(s), the antiSemitism will be minimal. The contrary case yields the contrary result.

Besides the historical research, we can test much of the themes offered in this thread by going over to "comparative studies".

Let's glance at Asia. Using the same themes on this thread (eg perceived differences, economic benefits, political antagonisms [relates to economic especially]), do we not see forms of tribal discrimination against the Hakka Chinese, especially when they are not residing within the historic China landmass? What were the dynamics of India's Dalit tribe becoming the class known as "Untouchables" in the West?

Let's return to more contemporary times. Are not these dynamics present in the relationship between ultra-orthodox Jewish enclaves and modern orthodox Jewish "tribes" (no beards)? I think so.


Warm regards,

Bob

South
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Re: When did antisemitism start?

#98

Post by South » 11 Jul 2009, 11:25

Good mrning Phylo,

I don't think that it is THE question; only a subtopic theme.

Recall my example here of the American colony of Maryland. Maryland's colonial administrators passed a Test Act allowing only Christians to hold public office. This discriminated against Jews. This can be called antiSemitism. A few years later the colony of North Carolina also passed a law prohibiting Jews from holding public office. North Carolina also prohibited Catholics from holding public office. Can we call North Carolina's law antisemitic within this context or are we drifting into semantics and rhetoric ?

My example in support of my views can be seen in an English example.

The Jews were expelled from England. Over the years England ran into economic difficulties. Oliver Cromwell invited Rabbi Menassah ben Israel to England. To make a short story even shorter, Cromwell's attorneys never even heard of any prohibition to Jews living in England. The world trade war was on and England did real good.


Warm regards,

Bob

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Re: When did antisemitism start?

#99

Post by garlock » 11 Jul 2009, 13:20

Good morning all,

I'm assiduously following along, but I need a summation every so often; many theses have been presented. Do the previous several discussions generally try to categorize different types of prejudice in general as examples to identify the reasons for prejudice against the Jews? I've noted: 1. religion; 2. behavior; 3. politics; 4. otherness; 5. and role as scapegoat, to name just some, as examples of why prejudice against the Jews has occurred.

I think antisemitism is not different than prejudices against other specific groups. It has a heightened profile and resonance because of the Holocaust and because of its ancient roots, but I don't think that as a concept antisemitism has any special qualities that make it more heinous or important than any other prejudices against groups of people.

regards,

John

Karl
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Re: When did antisemitism start?

#100

Post by Karl » 11 Jul 2009, 14:27

Who are the descendants of Shem ?

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phylo_roadking
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Re: When did antisemitism start?

#101

Post by phylo_roadking » 11 Jul 2009, 17:23

Who are the descendants of Shem ?
Well...according to Zecharia Sitchin - they are Columbia, Challenger, Discovery, Atlantis, and Endeavor :lol: :lol: :lol:

garlock
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Re: When did antisemitism start?

#102

Post by garlock » 11 Jul 2009, 17:26

Shem: son of Noah. His descendant was Abram, father of the Hebrews, Israelites, Jews.
Ham: son of Noah. His descendants were the Caananites, from whom the Hebrews wrested the Promised Land.
Japheth: son of Noah. His descendants were the Gentiles.

John

EDIT: Because Ham saw his father naked, he and his descendants were cursed to live under the rule or power of the descendants of Shem. That curse has had staying power.

Karl
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Re: When did antisemitism start?

#103

Post by Karl » 11 Jul 2009, 22:51

which son was he?

how old did he die?

did the brothers and sisters have different fathers?

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Re: When did antisemitism start?

#104

Post by David Thompson » 12 Jul 2009, 00:31

Let's get back on topic.

Karl
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Re: When did antisemitism start?

#105

Post by Karl » 12 Jul 2009, 00:47

Aren't you cutting it a bit early.

Apart from phyto's last effort, everything appears to be within the confines of this thread.

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