Genocide in Volhynia

[Manweru]

Manweru:

1) AK was officially disbanded in January of 1945. The Pawlokoma massacre happened in March of 1945. Basically you are claiming that AK is responsible for something done after it was disbanded.

- Officially disbanned on paper could mean one thing, but groups of Polish nationalists still continued to be functioning.

1) What "groups of Polish nationalists"? The Pawlokoma massacre happened after some local Poles went missing, probably murdered by UPA and/or local Ukrainians. Were are talking about local retribution here, "groups of Polish nationalists" is't justified here.

2) It's both funny and disgusting to see how Ukrainians sometimes try to smear AK by attributing the Pawlokoma massacre to it, even though it happened AFTER AK's disbandment.

2) Unlike UPA, AK never conducted a organised, widespread action of widespread of murder of civilians. In this aspect UPA can be called a criminal organisation, while in the case of AK the guilt can only be attributred to particular units.

- Polish government conducted an organized and widepsread adtion against Ukrainian population in the 30's called Pacification. In this aspect Polish governmetn can be called a criminal organization as it waged war against its own citizens.

1) It was not "an action against Ukrainian population", it was an action against the Ukrainian terrorist organisation OUN, which has previously conduct several attacks against both Polish state and also civilian property.

2) "Waged war against it's own civilians" - one more case of shameless propaganda from your side. It was not war, it was a anti-terrorist action with little civilian casualties. In reality the Pacification has been overblown by Ukrainian nationalist mythology, your accusations belong to the realm of fiction.

3) UPA was the armed force of the fascist political organisation OUN. AK on the other hands had hardly anything to do fascism, one of the reasons for that was that there was another, much more politically extreme Polish guerilla army called NSZ.

- If you compare Polish nationalism with Ukrainian nationalism they are very much a like. So I dont' see why one should be facist and the other not.

And in this I agree, but I think you miss the main point of what I wrote. Yes, Poland had it's own fascists, but they had their own armed formation - the NSZ. Basically, Ukrainians try to whitewash UPA and/or smear AK by saying these organisations were similiar, but AK was in no way a Polish equivalent of UPA, even though NSZ probably was.

]
- Yes, and Ukrainian actions were retribution for Polish crimes comminted against Ukrainian state, such as occupation, war crimes and oppression.

If you mean the massive war crimes commited by UPA, these were actually a case of organised case of deliberate ethnic cleansing.

Perhaps I should give a quick example of from where my objections to your position come from. As you might know or not know, UPA grew in power when it's ranks were strenghtened by the deserters from the auxiliary police that collaborated with the Nazis. Those men significant because they deserted together with their German-provided weapons, and they were few thousands of them. The problem is that before joining UPA, one of their tasks was helping the Germans in murdering the Jews... which de facto means that UPA absorbed few thousands of war criminals, few thousands of men who were already morally degenerated when they entered UPA's ranks.

- Your statement is falce because it assumes that every Ukrainian who joined German police would participate in round up of the jews. If we were to follow your logic, then every Polish collaborationist police peson that later joined AK would also mean that "morally degenerated ranks of AK were joined by thousands of war criminals". Lets be fare and not trow such statements around

Perhaps not every Ukrainian Nazi collaborator participated in murdering Jews, but you are still evading the core of the issue - yes, Ukrainian police did take part in the Holocaust and it's extremely unlikely that the majority of those thousands of Ukrainian policemen who joined UPA were not taking part in the Holocaust.

Of course I do know that the denial and minimization of Ukrainian participation in the Holocaust (in which Ukrainians were the second most active nation after Germans) is very popular among Ukrainians, but it's supposed to be a forum about history, not a forum for defense of national myths.

As for Poles, AK and the Holocaust, the situation was quite different than in the case of Ukrainians and OUN. First of all, Poland had been invaded and occupied by Germany and Germans were clearly identified as enemies by the Polish society. The AK itself was the armed organisation of the Polish goverment in exile (in London) which was waging war against Nazi Germany, which also has organised a special organisation devoted to helping and rescuing Jews ("Żegota"). On the other hand, many Ukrainians seen the Germans as allies and liberators, with many prominent Ukrainian nationalis activists like Bandera or Shukhevych being active Nazi collaborators.

In the light of this, it's quite logical that a patriotic and perhaps nationalistic Pole who could want to join AK and risk his life for his beliefs, would not be a willing henchman to the Nazis as the patriotic/nationalistic Ukrainians were - simply because the patriotic/nationalistic Ukrainians hoped the Nazis would help them, while the patriotic/nationalistic Poles treated Germans as a clear enemy.

BTW I do realise you probably know all of this, but continue to spread propaganda despite that.

- You are repeating the same old arguments from the older discussion on this matter. Let me clarify again:

1. Polish minority in Volyn' was very small before the influx of Polish colonists

How small exactly in your opinion?

Ukrainians killed many Poles just as Poles killed many Ukrainians. My family is of Ukrainian descent but lived for generations in present day Poland in the Carpathian Mountains. They were constantly subjugated by the Poles to the point that they were forced to defer their Orthodox church to the Roman Catholic Church and this happened hundreds of years ago. The Poles at times controlled a greater portion of Ukraine including Lviv where their prisons marked Ukrainians for genocide - see Bereza Kartuska.

Most recently , Poland conducted ethnic cleansing of Ukrianians in Operation Vistula.

http://www.lemko.org/wisla/maslej02.html

Thus, the offenses have not been unilateral.

What you wrote above is largely true, but unfrotunately it contains bits of propaganda spread by certain Ukrainian circles.

True, the offenses have not been unilateral, but such rhetoric is often used by Ukrainians wanting to hide the fact that UPA commited a widespread, organised action of mass murder of civilians, something which the Poles have NOT done.

Also, Bereza Katruska was not a place were "Ukrainians were marked for genocide", it was a prison for political prisoners, both for Poles and Ukrainians, nobody got there only for their ethnicity. Not only there was no genocide there, but even S. Bandera, a important OUN leader survived imprisonment there.

I don't buy it cause my family used to live in Volhynia region and survived only thanks to vast help of Ukrainian friends and neighbours.

Do you know they are Germans are on net who tell "their stories" how the relations between Poles and Germans during WW2 were good during occupation of Poland ?

And...?

The relations of Poles and Germany was of course horrible, but relations between Poles and Germans were very varied. My own grandmother (who was of course Polish) told me about cases in which she had good experiences with Germans in and near occupied Warsaw.

BTW, oddly, the worst opinion she had was about Ukrainian soldiers in the Red Army, she said they were cruel and savage. And she had never been anywhere close to Kresy, she lived all her life in Masovia.

[Okyzm]

How small exactly in your opinion?

To be fair it was small even after Polish colonization.

My own grandmother (who was of course Polish) told me about cases in which she had good experiences with Germans in and near occupied Warsaw.

BTW, oddly, the worst opinion she had was about Ukrainian soldiers in the Red Army, she said they were cruel and savage. And she had never been anywhere close to Kresy, she lived all her life in Masovia.

To me as a Pole from Silesia, Masovia is too dangerously close to Kresy itself, too bad it became so important due to catastrophic union with Lithuania But that means nothing, except confirming the terrible stereotypies Poles have against nation they opressed. While Germans wanted to completely exterminate Poles as untermenschen, the Ukrainians wanted them driven out of Ukrainian territory. And yet some would believe the Germans are less cruel then Ukrainians. Obviously this is terribly biased view.



A question to both Ukrainian and Polish contributors here:
Did Home Army in 1943/1944 accept that Volhyn will be free from Polish control and part of Ukrainian Republic in Soviet Union or did they held to the desire to keep the Ukrainian lands despite over 60% majority of Ukrainians living there ?

[Manweru]

How small exactly in your opinion?

To be fair it was small even after Polish colonization.

That's not the point, the point is that some Ukrainians try to quasi-justify the war crimes done by UPA by presenting the victims as "settlers from 20-30s", which is largle untrue.

BTW The overall total number of Poles in Volhyn was indeed small, about 16% or so.

While Germans wanted to completely exterminate Poles as untermenschen, the Ukrainians wanted them driven out of Ukrainian territory. And yet some would believe the Germans are less cruel then Ukrainians. Obviously this is terribly biased view.

No, not really.

At some point there was a survey about wartime experiences of Polish families (done by Gazeta Wyborcza) and the AFAR survery pointed out Ukrainians as the nation with which the Poles had worst experiences during WWII, Germans coming second, Russian third. That's our historical exprience on the level of the nation, not some kind of individual bias.

You are writing that Germans wanted to completely exterminate Poles, while Ukrainians wanted them to be driven out of "Ukrainian territory". In this, you are confusing statements of intent with actual "physical" events. Statements of intent are not the same as actual intent, and neither is the same as actual deeds. Ukrainian fascist war criminals from UPA were surrounding Polish villages and murdering every Pole, women and children included, often in a cruel manner. Sorry, but the actual deeds here are "extermination/mass murder of civilians with elements of torture", not "driving out".

A question to both Ukrainian and Polish contributors here:
Did Home Army in 1943/1944 accept that Volhyn will be free from Polish control and part of Ukrainian Republic in Soviet Union or did they held to the desire to keep the Ukrainian lands despite over 60% majority of Ukrainians living there ?

AFAIK, the Armia Krajowa (Home Army) was not a political organisation, it was an armed formation controlled by the Polish goverment-in-exile in London. As for the desire itself, I'm sure that the vast majority of Poles desired to keep the eastern pre-WW2 borders, although they also realised that the real decision makers in this case are the Soviet Union and the West.

[Kajtmaz]

The relations of Poles and Germany was of course horrible, but relations between Poles and Germans were very varied. My own grandmother (who was of course Polish) told me about cases in which she had good experiences with Germans in and near occupied Warsaw.

ok

BTW, oddly, the worst opinion she had was about Ukrainian soldiers in the Red Army, she said they were cruel and savage.

that served only to accentuate the blackness of Propaganda.

[Okyzm]

At some point there was a survey about wartime experiences of Polish families (done by Gazeta Wyborcza) and the AFAR survery pointed out Ukrainians as the nation with which the Poles had worst experiences during WWII, Germans coming second, Russian third. That's our historical exprience on the level of the nation, not some kind of individual bias.

It didn't occur to you, that perhaps t he difference is that Poles know personal stories about Ukrainians, because so many Poles survived, while personal accounts of German cruelty are not so widespread becasue majority of the victims died and the knowledge is more from scholarly and educational sources, rather then family(which of course doesn't mean that they aren't personal accounts).

You are writing that Germans wanted to completely exterminate Poles, while Ukrainians wanted them to be driven out of "Ukrainian territory". In this, you are confusing statements of intent with actual "physical" events. Statements of intent are not the same as actual intent, and neither is the same as actual deeds. Ukrainian fascist war criminals from UPA were surrounding Polish villages and murdering every Pole, women and children included, often in a cruel manner.

So UPA wanted to make an Ukrainian city out of Warsaw ? As to children and women, German forces openly murdered pregnant women; kidnapped Polish children were injected alive with poison by German doctors in Auschwitz.

Here-an witness account of pregnant Polish women being spared by Ukrainians, only to face German officer demanding her murder:
http://www.warsawuprising.com/witness/atrocities4.htm

My husband was absent, taking an active part in the Rising, and I was alone with my three children, aged 4, 6 and 12, and in the last month of pregnancy.


I begged the Vlassov's men around me to save me and the children, and they asked if I had anything with which to buy my life. I had a large amount of gold with me and gave it them. They took it all and wanted to lead me away, but the German supervising the execution would not allow them to do so, and when I begged him to let me go he pushed me off, shouting "Quicker!" I fell when he pushed me. He also hit and pushed my elder boy, shouting "hurry up, you Polish bandit".

The Vlassov men are misunderstanding and they were actually Ukrainian troops not the Vlassov army-Warsaw citizens were confusing the two.

Germans nationalists aimed at the planned extermination of whole Polish nation. For them a child, pregnant woman were enemies of German nation to be murdered. While the Ukrainians in UPA were no doubt engaging in atrocities and mass murder, they were interested in Ukrainian territories only, and had no designs on exterminating the whole Polish nation.

If there indeed exists a false view of Ukrainians as worse then Germans then I can only rationalise it as result of Kresowiak influenced negative stereotype that infected our society.

[Manweru]

BTW, oddly, the worst opinion she had was about Ukrainian soldiers in the Red Army, she said they were cruel and savage.

that served only to accentuate the blackness of Propaganda.

Blackness of what propaganda? Propaganda spread by farmers of Masovia? My grandmother had little love for Russians or the Red Army in general, but she said that Russians from the Red Army were nowhere as bad as Ukrainians from the Red Army.

It didn't occur to you, that perhaps t he difference is that Poles know personal stories about Ukrainians, because so many Poles survived, while personal accounts of German cruelty are not so widespread becasue majority of the victims died and the knowledge is more from scholarly and educational sources, rather then family(which of course doesn't mean that they aren't personal accounts).

The above fragment makes no sense.

It were exactly the Ukrainians from UPA who were conducting mass murder of Polish civilians by surrounding a village and then killing every Pole inside, even women and children. That surely reduced the number of witnesses and guaranteed that "majority of victims died".

On the other hand, Germans often conducted public executions, aimed that terrorising the Polish society, so your suggestion is that the German crimes are somehow known mostly from scholarly is completely absurd.

You are writing that Germans wanted to completely exterminate Poles, while Ukrainians wanted them to be driven out of "Ukrainian territory". In this, you are confusing statements of intent with actual "physical" events. Statements of intent are not the same as actual intent, and neither is the same as actual deeds. Ukrainian fascist war criminals from UPA were surrounding Polish villages and murdering every Pole, women and children included, often in a cruel manner.

So UPA wanted to make an Ukrainian city out of Warsaw ?

For some mysterious reason, you are again missing the point - mass murder of civilians, women and children is not exactly the same as "driving somebody out", and making statements of intent contrary to actual deeds does't actually make the deeds any less real.

As to children and women, German forces openly murdered pregnant women;

And Ukrainians from UPA did the same, which is probably why these two nations are the ones most often linked with WW2 war crimes in the Polish historical memory.

Germans nationalists aimed at the planned extermination of whole Polish nation. For them a child, pregnant woman were enemies of German nation to be murdered. While the Ukrainians in UPA were no doubt engaging in atrocities and mass murder, they were interested in Ukrainian territories only, and had no designs on exterminating the whole Polish nation.

You are speaking about your perception of somebody's intentions, instead of actual deeds.

We do know that Ukrainian fascists were mass murdering Polish civilians even though according to you they only wanted them to be "driven out". How do you know what were their real intentions, and what were untrue statements of intentions? Do you also believe that the intention of rulers of Soviet Union was to bringing happiness to the people, just because they were making such statements of intent?

Here-an witness account of pregnant Polish women being spared by Ukrainians, only to face German officer demanding her murder:
http://www.warsawuprising.com/witness/atrocities4.htm

Soon a Ukrainian approached and killed my two-year-old child like a dog - well, perhaps THAT is one of the reasons for which Ukrainians are remembered as war criminals. BTW these testimonies puts both Ukrainians and Germans in a bad light.

begged the Vlassov's men around me to save me and the children, and they asked if I had anything with which to buy my life. I had a large amount of gold with me and gave it them. They took it all and wanted to lead me away, - how humanitarian of those Ukrainians, they decided to let a pregnant woman go due to a large bribe, otherwise they would've killed her. They were't any better than the German officer, they were simply more corrupt.

If there indeed exists a false view of Ukrainians as worse then Germans then I can only rationalise it as result of Kresowiak influenced negative stereotype that infected our society.

1) Excuse me, but are you perhaps a member of the Ukrainian diaspora in Poland, or in some sort of contact with that diaspora? I'm asking because I've only heard accusations about "Kresowiak propaganda" from Ukrainians.

2) As for "negative stereotype", it's first of all an effect of negative experiences from during WW2, additionaly agravated by the stance of many Ukrainians, stance which attempts to either deny anr/or distort the issue, in order to save their national myths from the ugly truth.

3) As for the "false view of Ukrainians as worse then Germans", when it comes to cruelty itself, it's not false at all.

Also, if we were to compute some kind of "rabidity level", comparing the number of victims to the level of power of the German and Ukrainian fascists, then it'd turn out that the Ukrainian ones were worse. Germany was a powerful state, arms industry and armed forces, while the OUN had no state, no arms industry and just a lightly armed guerilla force.

To illustrate this point in a clear manner, let's suppose that we have a psychopath with a handgun and he kills 20 people. Does it mean he is a much better man than a dictator who killed tens of thousands? Not really, because we have no idea of knowing what would the psychopath do if he was the dictator. In the case of OUN/UPA, we have no idea how many Polish civilians they would kill if they had the same power as Germans did. And Polish people who survived WWII often share the impression that the Ukrainians were even worser than the Nazis.

BTW I found the link to the survey:

http://wyborcza.pl/1,75478,6956564,Sond ... aincy.html

The question asked in the survey is "What were the WW2 relations of your family with [nationality x]?"

Ukrainians got 64% "negative". Germans got 63% negative.

Ukrainians got 9% "neither good neither bad", Germans got 8%.

Ukrainians got 14% "both good and bad", Germans got 17%.

Ukrainians got 9% "good", while Germans got 11%.

[Okyzm]

It were exactly the Ukrainians from UPA who were conducting mass murder of Polish civilians by surrounding a village and then killing every Pole inside, even women and children.

They killed "every Pole inside" and yet every little Polish colony has a witness statement about supposed atrocities there, while every Pole is supposed to have bad experience from IIIWW about Ukrainians. Seems kind of strange doesn't it ?

For some mysterious reason, you are again missing the point - mass murder of civilians, women and children is not exactly the same as "driving somebody out"

You didn't answer my question. Did UPA intend to go to Warsaw and make Warsaw an Ukrainian city ? I don't deny that UPA mass murdered Polish children, women and civilians overall. But would they be murdered if for example they would escape from the area, and left Volhyn ?

We do know that Ukrainian fascists were mass murdering Polish civilians even though according to you they only wanted them to be "driven out".

I don't know of any UPA units going beyond their defined ethnic borders to continue killing Poles. If I am wrong, do correct me.

How do you know what were their real intentions, and what were untrue statements of intentions?

How do you know what were their true intentions ? Please don't tell me, you read this from Kresowiak publications.

how humanitarian of those Ukrainians, they decided to let a pregnant woman go due to a large bribe, otherwise they would've killed her. They were't any better than the German officer, they were simply more corrupt.

The sentence demonstrates that killing of Poles wasn't essential for Ukrainians(although I don't deny that they did mass murder Poles), while it was for German nationalists. And obviously a person willing to take bribe to spare a life, is more human then a person attached to the idea of murder so strongly that he will not take a bribe to close his eyes to a pregnant women escaping.

1) Excuse me, but are you perhaps a member of the Ukrainian diaspora in Poland, or in some sort of contact with that diaspora? I'm asking because I've only heard accusations about "Kresowiak propaganda" from Ukrainians.

No, I am Polish. But I seperate myself from the nationalistic propaganda of many Kresowiaks, that harmed and continue to harm Polish interests in the name of minority group interested in upkeeping a romantic view of conquering Ukrainian lands that were in truth worthless compared to real Polish territories lost in Silesia for example.

And Polish people who survived WWII often share the impression that the Ukrainians were even worser than the Nazis.

And again demonstration of negative stereotype of Ukrainians, as majority of Poles never lived in Kresy and had no contact with Ukrainians. Of course this is a distortion of historic reality, as UPA never intended for example to turn Warsaw into Ukrainian city.

As for the "false view of Ukrainians as worse then Germans", when it comes to cruelty itself, it's not false at all.

Also, if we were to compute some kind of "rabidity level", comparing the number of victims to the level of power of the German and Ukrainian fascists, then it'd turn out that the Ukrainian ones were worse.

Really ? By what statistics ? Show me the calculations.

TW I found the link to the survey:

A survey in Wyborcza ? You can't be serious.

Anyway-just continues to prove what I wrote. Most of Poles can't know about Ukrainians since only a very small minority lived in Volhyn. Another demonstration of negative Kresowiak influence that plagues our nation by distorting history.

PS:I don't of course deny that ethnic cleansing and wide scale atrocities occured in Volhyn on Polish population.

[Kajtmaz]

Blackness of what propaganda? Propaganda spread by farmers of Masovia? My grandmother had little love for Russians or the Red Army in general, but she said that Russians from the Red Army were nowhere as bad as Ukrainians from the Red Army.

do you probably think that someone find it internationalistic/clever/historically?

[JTG]

Ii see this as a continuing - LIVE - dispute: going over old ground again and again, lending nothing to any argument..

John

[Manweru]

They killed "every Pole inside" and yet every little Polish colony has a witness statement about supposed atrocities there, while every Pole is supposed to have bad experience from IIIWW about Ukrainians. Seems kind of strange doesn't it ?

Considering your severe pro-Ukrainian bias, I'm sure you'll find some kind of faulty reasoning to make it look strange in your, and only your eyes.

You didn't answer my question. Did UPA intend to go to Warsaw and make Warsaw an Ukrainian city ?

No, but it did intend to make mixed Polish-Ukrainian cities Ukrainian. What's the point?

We do know that Ukrainian fascists were mass murdering Polish civilians even though according to you they only wanted them to be "driven out".

I don't know of any UPA units going beyond their defined ethnic borders to continue killing Poles.

1) Are you capable of understanding the difference betwen "driving out" and "mass murder"?
2) What are "defined ethnic borders"?

How do you know what were their real intentions, and what were untrue statements of intentions?

How do you know what were their true intentions ? Please don't tell me, you read this from Kresowiak publications.
[/quote]

"Please don't tell me, you read this from Kresowiak publications." is a primitive attack from your side, perhaps coming from the obvious lack of arguments.

How do I know what were their true intentions? I don't. But unlike you, I understand the difference between intentions, statements of intent and actual actions.

You have't answered my question: Do you also believe that the intention of rulers of Soviet Union was to bringing happiness to the people, just because they were making such statements of intent?

how humanitarian of those Ukrainians, they decided to let a pregnant woman go due to a large bribe, otherwise they would've killed her. They were't any better than the German officer, they were simply more corrupt.

The sentence demonstrates that killing of Poles wasn't essential for Ukrainians, while it was for German nationalists.

Very silly reasoning. These Ukrainians were't UPA, they were some kind of auxiliary formation, who were sometimes mercenaries, who did indeed not care. But you write "for Ukrainians", putting opportunistic mercenaries and OUN fascists in one basket.

And obviously a person willing to take bribe to spare a life, is more human then a person attached to the idea of murder so strongly that he will not take a bribe to close his eyes to a pregnant women escaping.

Perhaps, but what's the point? You wanted to prove that Ukrainian auxiliaries were sometimes, or even usually more flexible than German officers? Very likely. But it does't automatically apply to all Ukrainians, especially to Ukrainians from OUN, who were generally not opportunistic mercenaries.

No, I am Polish. But I seperate myself from the nationalistic propaganda of many Kresowiaks, that harmed and continue to harm Polish interests in the name of minority group interested in upkeeping a romantic view of conquering Ukrainian lands that were in truth worthless compared to real Polish territories lost in Silesia for example.

The problem is that there is indeed some propaganda promoting a romantic view of the Kresy AND there is also propaganda promoting the opposite view and your views are heavily influenced by the second one. So... are you under influence of the Ukrainians, or do you receive the propaganda from some other source?

And Polish people who survived WWII often share the impression that the Ukrainians were even worser than the Nazis.

And again demonstration of negative stereotype of Ukrainians, as majority of Poles never lived in Kresy and had no contact with Ukrainians.

Nonsense. Previously in this thread there was mention of:

- Ukrainians from the Red Army
- Ukrainians serving the Germans, who were taking part in war crimes in Warsaw

They did't have to live in the Kresy to have contact with Ukrainians, you are writing in a way suggesting you don't remember what was written one or two posts ago in this thread.

Of course this is a distortion of historic reality, as UPA never intended for example to turn Warsaw into Ukrainian city, nor aimed at extermination of whole Polish nation.

People who have actually lived during WW2 often do not seem to think that this is any kind of distortion. Are you capable of considering the possibility that you might be mistaken?

As for the "false view of Ukrainians as worse then Germans", when it comes to cruelty itself, it's not false at all.

Also, if we were to compute some kind of "rabidity level", comparing the number of victims to the level of power of the German and Ukrainian fascists, then it'd turn out that the Ukrainian ones were worse.

Really ? By what statistics ? Show me the calculations.

Every semi-competent person knows that 3rd Reich was a state with significant power, while I don't know of anybody who would put OUN anywhere near the 3rd Reich in terms of (military and other forms of) power. I don't think you don't understand this, I think you raise a pseudo-objection just in order to not having the review your biased pro-OUN/pro-Ukrainian views.

A survey in Wyborcza ? You can't be serious.

No, I'm serious and you are raising one more pseudo-objection. A survery done by a well-known newspaper is a adequate source in cases like this (people asked about the experiences of their families).

Anyway-just continues to prove what I wrote. Most of Poles can't know about Ukrainians since only a very small minority lived in Volhyn. Another demonstration of negative Kresowiak influence that plagues our nation by distorting history.

1) It's really strange to see how you write about Poles having no opportunity to know Ukrainians because only some Poles lived in Volhyn. It sounds like you have a very serious lack of knowledge about several issues surrounding this subject.

2) As "negative Kresowiak influence", I don't consider battle against denial and selective treatment of war crimes as negative.

3) As for "plagues our nation by distorting history" - I have no idea what your intentions are, but it is you who are distrorting history, no matter if you are aware of it or not.

[David Thompson]

This thread is turning into a repartee exchange. If we don't get more sourced facts soon I will lock it as unproductive.

[H2HSnake]

I wonder where did You get these outstanding news that lands like (Malopolska Wschodnia with Lwow) were ethnically Ukrainian ? and belong to Ukrainians? since only, and the earliest source telling that these lands were invaded by Kievian Rus as first is - Ruthenian.There were always living a mix of nationalities of both Ruthenian and Polish origins (I don't use a term Ukrainian here cause it's kind of artificial when talking about realy old times).These lands I am talking about were called Grody Czerwienskie, and Ruthenian scribe clearly writes:
"W leto 6489 ide Wołodimer' k Liachom' i zaja grady ich: Peremyszl', Czerwien', i iny grady jeże sut' do sego dnie pod' Rusiu. W sem że letie i Wiaticzi pobiedi i wiezłożi na nia dan' ot niaouga, jakoże otci (otec) jego imasze."
in Polish
"Roku 6489 [981]. Poszedl Wlodzimierz ku Lachom i zajal grody ich: Przemysl, Czerwien i inne grody, ktore do dzis dnia sa pod Rusia. Tegoz roku i Wiatyczow zwyciezyl i nalozyl na nich dan od pluga, jaka i ojciec jego bral."
someone could translate it to english to other veiwers.
In this oldest writings about these lands it's said that Kievian Rus invaded them! so how they can be ethernal Ukrainian?
Other thing is strange thinking that if Poles were living in Volhynia Ukrainians had the right to drive them out or kill.
WTF is wrong with You? Ukrainians lived on Polish ethnic lands for centuries and no one was killing them for that fact,. That shows that You're influenced by typical Ukrainian fascist thinking and a vision of Ukraine for Ukrainians only.
All OUN-UPA actions were wrong , no patriotic (or especially nationalistic) intentions justify a murdering of innocent civilians just because they were of other nationality, that's pure racism and it's sick.
This ill thinking is more clear when comparing it to real creator of UPA- Taras Bulba Borovec.He clearly stated that OUN -UPA of Bandera are murderers, fascist trying to gain the power and create dictatorship over Ukraine.Taras said that his vision of free Ukraine is where all minorities have equal rights, his vision was really European.Bandera coudn't stand such civilised thinking so he destroyed Bulba's units and tried to kill him like he did with Borovec wife and other Ukrainian units and political individuals that didn't like the idea of Ukraine under dictatorship of Bandera.
Nowadays Ukrainians in Volhynia says that this genocide was wrong and not necesairly, they've gained NOTHING.
Whenever I go to Lwow i ask old Ukrainian ladies how was the life in pre war Poland - they NEVER say anything bad !they say oposite, so stop this stupid pro nationalistic , Bandera influenced propaganda, casual neutral Ukrainian people are more true and honest.
Most importand sources about fascist ideology and actions of Bandera's UPA are Ukrainian - Wiktor Poliszczuk's works and books."In his works, Poliszczuk clearly separates the issue of the Ukrainian Insurgent Army and the Ukrainian nation, stating that the Organization of Ukrainian Nationalists was based on terror. He explores the sources of the Organization of Ukrainian Nationalists' nationalism as based on the theories of Dmytro Dontsov. " - it's not Kresowiacs propaganda mate, it's Ukrainian knowledge, which Kresowiacks simply don't have cause they were never amongst the Ukrainian Nationalists like the author was.
http://www.amazon.com/Ukrainian-Fascism ... H9J8ZVAA82

And here on these forums there is a subject about Maksym Borovec and his letters to OUN UPA commanders.
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=113150
Ukrainian President Leonid Kravchuk admitted the OUN-UPA genocide. Kiev Professor Zaturensky condemned the OUN-UPA, and opposed its rehabilitation. Cherednychenko, another Kiev professor, condemned the OUN-UPA as nothing more than a band of cutthroats that should never be made into Ukrainian national heroes.
THERE WAS NO TRUE REASON TO DRIVE OUT OR MURDER POLES LIVING IN VOLHYNIA, NONE.It was just the act of fascist sick ideology which some people here try to defend and call "patriotic cause", I don't know if it's even legal here.

There's also more sources for gaining real knowledge about this criminal organisation of OUN-UPA (mistakenly called "national liberation movement" )
The Holocaust of Volhynian Jews: 1941-44 by Shmuel Spector
http://www.amazon.com/Holocaust-Volhyni ... _lmf_tit_1
"First the Jews, then the Poles" was a common slogan of Ukrainian nationalists. A Jewish scholar describes how Ukrainian Nazi collaborators played a major role in the Nazis' extermination of the local Jews, and then put their murderous skills to use against the Poles in a do-it-yourself genocidal project."

Ethnic Cleansing in Twentieth Century Europe by Steven Bela Vardy
"This anthology includes a fairly objective English-language chapter, by Alexander V. Prusin, on the OUN-UPA genocide of the Poles. He realizes that attempts to blame it on the Poles are falsehoods."

The Reconstruction of Nations: Poland, Ukraine, Lithuania, Belarus, 1569-1999 by Timothy Snyder
"This work, by an American historian, includes an excellent, detailed, English-language description of the OUN-UPA genocide of Poles--based on a large collection of Ukrainian, Polish, and other sources. He doesn't confuse this genocide with "the Polish-Ukrainian war", which came later."

Heroes and Villains: Creating National History in Contemporary Ukraine by David R. Marples
I'll just quote here part of the review of the book that is very ON TOPIC here ,
"There is no moral or tactical symmetry between past Polish injustices to Ukrainians and the OUN-UPA genocide, and Marples rejects any such rationalization: "One could hardly find a better example of a victimization complex being used to justify a wholesale massacre." (p. 237). AK actions followed, not preceded, the genocide. (p. 213). "

[David Thompson]

An exchange of opinion posts by H2HSnake and Kajtmaz, which added nothing of informational value to the thread, was deleted by this moderator - DT.

[michael mills]

Some histroical background from the Wikipedia article on "Red Ruthenia":

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Ruthenia

Red Ruthenia (Latin: Ruthenia Rubra or Russia Rubra, Ukrainian: Червона Русь, Chervona Rus, Polish: Ruś Czerwona, Russian: Червоная Русь, Chervonaya Rus) is the name used since medieval times to refer to the area known as Eastern Galicia prior to World War I.

Ethnographers explain that the term was applied from the old-Slavonic use of colours for the cardinal points on the compass. The ancient totem-god Svitovyd had four faces. The northern face of this totem was white (hence Byelorus), the western face red (hence Chervona Rus'), the southern black and the eastern green. This makes the placement of Black Ruthenia problematic.

Red Ruthenia was inhabited in 10th century by Lendians.[1]

This area was mentioned for the first time in 981, when Vladimir the Great, Rus Grand Prince, occupied it during his western campaign.[3][4] In 1018, it was retook by Poland, in 1031 annexed to Rus. It came under Polish control in 1340, when Casimir III of Poland recovered it.[4][5][6] Since these times the name Ruś Czerwona is recorded, translated as "Red Ruthenia", applied to a territory extended up to the Dniester River, with priority gradually transferred to Przemyśl (Peremyshl). Since the times of Władysław Jagiełło, the Przemyśl Voivodeship was called the Ruthenian Voivodeship ("województwo ruskie"), with the priority eventually transferred to Lwów (Lviv). It consisted of five lands: Lwów , Sanok, Halicz (Halych), Przemyśl (Peremyshl), and Chełm (Kholm). The city of Halych gave the name to Galicia.

Red Ruthenia passed to the Polish Crown in 1340 upon the extinction of the princely dynasty of Halycz, a branch of the Rurikid dynasty which ruled Kievan Rus. At that time, it belonged to the cultural sphere of Kievan Rus; the religion of the people was Eastern Orthodox, and their language was an East Slavonic dialect.

From 1340 until 1772, Red Ruthenia formed part of the Polish kingdom. The name "Galicia", derived from the Principality of Halycz, was bestowed on the territory by its new Habsburg rulers after the First Partition. During the period of 430 years as part of the Kingdom of Poland, Polish culture became dominant in Red Ruthenia, particularly in the towns; however, the peasantry continued to practise their Orthodox religion (albeit as members of the Uniate Church after the Union of Brest in 1596) and to speak their East Slavonic dialect, and in the 19th Century adopted a Ukrainian identity, seeing themselves as a branch of the Little Russian people inhabiting the southern provinces of Russia.

The ethnic conflict between Poles and Ukrainians in Red Ruthenia/ East Galicia goes back to the 17th Century, when Ruthenian peasants rebelled against the oppression of the Polish landlords, and continued throughout the 19th Century, when both ethnic groups competed for recognition by the Habsburg rulers.

The situation in Volhynia was different. After the disintegration of Kievan Rus, it formed part of the Principality of Halycz and Vladimir, one of the successor states. After the extinction of the dynasty of Halycz, Volhynia was absorbed into the Grand Duchy of Lithuania. In 1569, the territory was transferred from the Grand Duchy of Lithuania to the Kingdom of Poland; it continued to form part of the Kingdom of Poland until the Third Partition of 1795. Thus, Volhynia was under Polish rule for a shorter period than Red Ruthenia, 236 years as opposed to 430, and Polish culture did not become so dominant.

In Volhynia, the main cause of the ethnic conflict between Poles and Ukrainians was the program of the Polish Government after the First World War to settle ethnic Polish peasants on the land in that territory. The program involved resuming large estates of bankrupt Polish landlords, expelling the existing ethnic Ukrainian tenants, and replacing them with ethnic Polish peasants brought from Central Poland. That process created enormous ill-feeling among the Ukrainian peasantry, parts of which were rendered landless, and that is the most probable cause of the anti-Polish violence of 1943, which was directed primarily against the Polish settlers, and was more intense in Volhynia than in East Galicia, an anomalous situation since the Polish-Ukrainian political conflict that had raged since the middle of the 19th Century had been centred in East Galicia rather than Volhynia.

[Penn44]

The ethnic conflict between Poles and Ukrainians in Red Ruthenia/ East Galicia goes back to the 17th Century, when Ruthenian peasants rebelled against the oppression of the Polish landlords, and continued throughout the 19th Century, when both ethnic groups competed for recognition by the Habsburg rulers.

What you describe as "ethnic" conflict in the 17th century when Ruthenian peasants rebelled against Polish landlords would be better described as "class" conflict. Some sense of "ethnic" consciousness, at least in the "modern" sense which would lead to ethnic conflict seems to have arisen no earlier than the latter half of the 19th century and later among eastern European peasant populations.

Penn44

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