The Grand Mufti of Jerusalem-- A role in the Holocaust?
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Re: The Grand Mufti of Jerusalem-- A role in the Holocaust?
Objection about immigration in Palestine is not by itself support for Holocaust, but suggestions to leaders of European countries to send Jews to Poland is sort of collaboration in it.
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Re: The Grand Mufti of Jerusalem-- A role in the Holocaust?
Hi SloveneLiberal,
.....presuming, of course, that he knew what was happening to them in Poland. Do we know what he knew?
Cheers,
Sid.
.....presuming, of course, that he knew what was happening to them in Poland. Do we know what he knew?
Cheers,
Sid.
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Re: The Grand Mufti of Jerusalem-- A role in the Holocaust?
Yes in his written memories Mufti admitted he knew about the extermination of the Jews program. He wrote Himmler himself told him about it in Summer 1943. However Mufti was still advocating that muslims should drive the Jews out of their lands and took Nazi Germany as their allies in this struggle, claiming its goal of once and for all Save the world from Jewish problem is a noble one.
Last edited by SloveneLiberal on 28 Oct 2021, 22:05, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The Grand Mufti of Jerusalem-- A role in the Holocaust?
I should add however that there are testimonies that Grand Mufti knew about Holocaust even before summer 1943 ( 4.7. 1943 Mufti and Himmler met ). For example Dieter Wisliceny, a close collaborator of Adolf Eichmann made a written testimony about this.
In 1946, Dieter Wisliceny, a close collaborator of Adolf Eichmann in the "Jewish Affairs" division of the Reich Central Security Office, provided a written statement on the Grand Mufti to the Nuremberg Tribunal.
According to Wisliceny, at the beginning of 1942 Eichmann made a detailed presentation to al-Husaini on the "solution of the European Jewish question." The presentation took place in Eichmann's "map room" in Berlin: "where he had collected statistical graphics on the Jewish population in the various European countries." The Grand Mufti, Wisliceny recalls, was "very impressed." Furthermore, al-Husaini is supposed to have put in a request to Himmler to have Eichmann send one of his assistants to Jerusalem after Germany had won the war. The representative of Eichmann was to serve as the Grand Mufti's personal advisor: i.e. when the Grand Mufti would then set about "solving the Jewish question in the Middle East."
We can infer from other documentation that this was not just a vague idea. A declassified document on Nazi war crimes from the National Archives in Washington indicates that as of mid-1942 a special SS commando unit had plans to liquidate the Jews of Cairo following the capture of the city by German forces. Gen. Erwin Rommel was supposedly disgusted by the proposition. The head of the SS unit, Walter Rauff, had earlier been involved in developing vans that served as mobile gas chambers. It should be noted that he was a German and not a Pole, as suggested in the U.S. government document.
More here:
https://www.worldpoliticsreview.com/art ... mufti-know
In 1946, Dieter Wisliceny, a close collaborator of Adolf Eichmann in the "Jewish Affairs" division of the Reich Central Security Office, provided a written statement on the Grand Mufti to the Nuremberg Tribunal.
According to Wisliceny, at the beginning of 1942 Eichmann made a detailed presentation to al-Husaini on the "solution of the European Jewish question." The presentation took place in Eichmann's "map room" in Berlin: "where he had collected statistical graphics on the Jewish population in the various European countries." The Grand Mufti, Wisliceny recalls, was "very impressed." Furthermore, al-Husaini is supposed to have put in a request to Himmler to have Eichmann send one of his assistants to Jerusalem after Germany had won the war. The representative of Eichmann was to serve as the Grand Mufti's personal advisor: i.e. when the Grand Mufti would then set about "solving the Jewish question in the Middle East."
We can infer from other documentation that this was not just a vague idea. A declassified document on Nazi war crimes from the National Archives in Washington indicates that as of mid-1942 a special SS commando unit had plans to liquidate the Jews of Cairo following the capture of the city by German forces. Gen. Erwin Rommel was supposedly disgusted by the proposition. The head of the SS unit, Walter Rauff, had earlier been involved in developing vans that served as mobile gas chambers. It should be noted that he was a German and not a Pole, as suggested in the U.S. government document.
More here:
https://www.worldpoliticsreview.com/art ... mufti-know
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Re: The Grand Mufti of Jerusalem-- A role in the Holocaust?
Any claim made by Wisliceny cannot be accepted at face value, without corroborating evidence. In the immediate aftermath of the war, he made many claims about Eichmann's activities in a bid to save himself; he even suggested to his allied interrogators that he be released so that he could track Eichmann down.
One of his claims was that Eichmann had shown him a written order from Himmler for the extermination of all Jews in German-controlled territory. Historians tend to reject that claim, as they consider that there was no such comprehensive written order.
Wusliceny's attempts to save himself by making sensational claims were not successful. After giving his testimony before the IMT, he was extradited to Czechoslovakia, where he was tried and executed for his major role in the deportation of Slovak Jews.
As for the so-called Einsatzgruppe Aegypten, that was an idea by Himmler that was a non-starter from the outset. What is not generally realised is that the Axis forces operating in North Africa were under the political control of Italy, not of Germany, due to Hitler's agreement that the Mediterranean theatre, including North Africa and the Middle East, was an Italian Sphere of Interest in which Germany had no political or administrative role. Accordingly, if Egypt had been conquered by the Axis forces commanded by Rommel, the civilian population, including the Jews, would have come under Italian control, and as is well known, Mussolini did not permit any killing of Jews in regions under the control of his forces. In fact, regions under Italian occupation, such as southeast France or the coastal region of Croatia, became places of refuge for Jews fleeing German persecution.
The problem with most claims about the wartime activities of Al-Husaini is that they are essentially Israeli propaganda produced with the aim of delegitimising Palestinian resistance through the accusation of collaboration with Germany in the extermination of the Jews of Europe.
One of his claims was that Eichmann had shown him a written order from Himmler for the extermination of all Jews in German-controlled territory. Historians tend to reject that claim, as they consider that there was no such comprehensive written order.
Wusliceny's attempts to save himself by making sensational claims were not successful. After giving his testimony before the IMT, he was extradited to Czechoslovakia, where he was tried and executed for his major role in the deportation of Slovak Jews.
As for the so-called Einsatzgruppe Aegypten, that was an idea by Himmler that was a non-starter from the outset. What is not generally realised is that the Axis forces operating in North Africa were under the political control of Italy, not of Germany, due to Hitler's agreement that the Mediterranean theatre, including North Africa and the Middle East, was an Italian Sphere of Interest in which Germany had no political or administrative role. Accordingly, if Egypt had been conquered by the Axis forces commanded by Rommel, the civilian population, including the Jews, would have come under Italian control, and as is well known, Mussolini did not permit any killing of Jews in regions under the control of his forces. In fact, regions under Italian occupation, such as southeast France or the coastal region of Croatia, became places of refuge for Jews fleeing German persecution.
The problem with most claims about the wartime activities of Al-Husaini is that they are essentially Israeli propaganda produced with the aim of delegitimising Palestinian resistance through the accusation of collaboration with Germany in the extermination of the Jews of Europe.
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Re: The Grand Mufti of Jerusalem-- A role in the Holocaust?
Well... closer look at Italian more lenient policy toward Jews in Dalmatia would show that it was more the work of Italian army than of Mussolini and that Italian generals were more lenient many times contrary to fascist government policy. Also with Serbs, fleeing ustasha persecution. Generals had anti-German sentiments and later joined Badoglio and king of Italy in their coup against Mussolini. All this was upseting both Germans and ustasha regime of NDH. More about this was written in a study which was made by an American historian mr. James Burgwyn.
But anyway also Horthy was more lenient toward Jews and Grand Mufti proposed to his government to send large group of Hungarian Jews to Poland which was much more hostile enviroment for them, even if we believe him that at this point he did not know yet about systematic killings of the Jews.
About his protests concerning Bulgarian Jews we also have a testimony from German witness: Indeed, according to the post-War recollections of a Foreign Ministry official, “The Mufti turned up all over the place making protests: in the Minister’s office, in the waiting room of the Deputy Minister and in other sections: for example, Interior, the Press Office, the Broadcast service, and also the ss.” “The Mufti was a sworn enemy of the Jews,” the official concluded, “and he made no secret of the fact that he would have preferred to see them all killed.”
A quite simple question should be asked. If Grand Mufti by his own testimony knew from July 1943 about Holocaust and he was still advocating that muslims should drive Jews out of their lands and be close allies with Nazi Germany in its fight against Jews which are like the problem for the whole world... Why would it not be possible then that he was supporting their destruction also before July 1943?!
But anyway also Horthy was more lenient toward Jews and Grand Mufti proposed to his government to send large group of Hungarian Jews to Poland which was much more hostile enviroment for them, even if we believe him that at this point he did not know yet about systematic killings of the Jews.
About his protests concerning Bulgarian Jews we also have a testimony from German witness: Indeed, according to the post-War recollections of a Foreign Ministry official, “The Mufti turned up all over the place making protests: in the Minister’s office, in the waiting room of the Deputy Minister and in other sections: for example, Interior, the Press Office, the Broadcast service, and also the ss.” “The Mufti was a sworn enemy of the Jews,” the official concluded, “and he made no secret of the fact that he would have preferred to see them all killed.”
A quite simple question should be asked. If Grand Mufti by his own testimony knew from July 1943 about Holocaust and he was still advocating that muslims should drive Jews out of their lands and be close allies with Nazi Germany in its fight against Jews which are like the problem for the whole world... Why would it not be possible then that he was supporting their destruction also before July 1943?!
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Re: The Grand Mufti of Jerusalem-- A role in the Holocaust?
Hi SL,
You post, "Why would it not be possible then that he was supporting their destruction also before July 1943?!"
It is certainly possible, as is much else besides, but that does not mean it occurred, For that we need evidence.
And, even if true, it does not mean he had any influence over the implementation or development of the so-called Holocaust. Indeed, I would suggest that both are highly unlikely, as the Grand Mufti was a very peripheral figure in the Mazi firmament.
Cheers,
Sid
You post, "Why would it not be possible then that he was supporting their destruction also before July 1943?!"
It is certainly possible, as is much else besides, but that does not mean it occurred, For that we need evidence.
And, even if true, it does not mean he had any influence over the implementation or development of the so-called Holocaust. Indeed, I would suggest that both are highly unlikely, as the Grand Mufti was a very peripheral figure in the Mazi firmament.
Cheers,
Sid
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Re: The Grand Mufti of Jerusalem-- A role in the Holocaust?
The notion itself that Grand Mufti was not important is a wrong one. Concerning this question about his importance British historian mr. David Motadel wrote a book ''Islam and Nazi Germany's war''. Grand Mufti and his companions were not important in the decision making about the Holocaust however they were important in mobilization efforts of muslims for the cause of Third Reich. Primary focus of Grand Mufti was to recruit imams who preached to tens of thousands of muslims which fought along with German forces. Also Grand Mufti was very well paid by the Nazi regime for his job which was important. He got 90.000 Reichmarks each month. So big amount of money was available only to the richest persons in Germany at that time. We can see from the diary of Goebbles also that he considered that Grand Mufti is likely a descendant of European crusaders.
So keeping all this in mind it is not hard to understand why Grand Mufti was able to put pressure on Hungary, Romania and Bulgaria concerning their plans to allow some of the Jews in their country to go to the Middle east, instead proposing them to sent their Jews in very hostile enviroment in Nazi occupied Poland where at the time of his actions, letters and pressures just Warshaw ghetto uprising was crushed in blood during spring 1943.
So keeping all this in mind it is not hard to understand why Grand Mufti was able to put pressure on Hungary, Romania and Bulgaria concerning their plans to allow some of the Jews in their country to go to the Middle east, instead proposing them to sent their Jews in very hostile enviroment in Nazi occupied Poland where at the time of his actions, letters and pressures just Warshaw ghetto uprising was crushed in blood during spring 1943.
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Re: The Grand Mufti of Jerusalem-- A role in the Holocaust?
Hi SL.
You write, "Grand Mufti and his companions were..... were important in mobilization efforts of Muslims for the cause of Third Reich." Quite possibly, but I would suggest that they were not operating ".....for the cause of the Third Reich". They were operating in their own cause, which was essentially Arab nationalism opposed to foreign rule, represented by the British and French, and, for the Mufti in particular, an important subset of this was the immigration of hundreds of thousands of Jews into Palestine during their Mandate. These aims coincided with those of Nazi Germany during the war years. (Though not always - in the early 1930s the Nazis proposed sending German Jews to Palestine and Adolf Eichmann made a reconnaissance of Palestine with this in mind.)
Cheers,
Sid.
You write, "Grand Mufti and his companions were..... were important in mobilization efforts of Muslims for the cause of Third Reich." Quite possibly, but I would suggest that they were not operating ".....for the cause of the Third Reich". They were operating in their own cause, which was essentially Arab nationalism opposed to foreign rule, represented by the British and French, and, for the Mufti in particular, an important subset of this was the immigration of hundreds of thousands of Jews into Palestine during their Mandate. These aims coincided with those of Nazi Germany during the war years. (Though not always - in the early 1930s the Nazis proposed sending German Jews to Palestine and Adolf Eichmann made a reconnaissance of Palestine with this in mind.)
Cheers,
Sid.
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Re: The Grand Mufti of Jerusalem-- A role in the Holocaust?
I have read the book by David Motadel, and you have left out a crucial piece of information about the motivation of the Bosnian Muslims.
Motadel described how the leaders of the Bosnian Muslims asked to the Germans to permit the formation of an armed force to protect their people against the Serbs who were attacking them, both the Serb nationalist forces, the Chetniks, and Tito's partisans. The formation of the Waffen-SS Handschar Division was the result of their appeal, and was not an initiative by Haj Amin al-Husaini, who did play a role in recruitment, but only as an agent for the German Government.
Another interesting piece of information in the book was that the Bosnian Muslim leaders asked the german Government to annex Bosnia to the German Reich, so that the Bosnian Muslims would have the same status that they had had in the Austro-Hungarian Empire before the First World War.
Motadel described how the leaders of the Bosnian Muslims asked to the Germans to permit the formation of an armed force to protect their people against the Serbs who were attacking them, both the Serb nationalist forces, the Chetniks, and Tito's partisans. The formation of the Waffen-SS Handschar Division was the result of their appeal, and was not an initiative by Haj Amin al-Husaini, who did play a role in recruitment, but only as an agent for the German Government.
Another interesting piece of information in the book was that the Bosnian Muslim leaders asked the german Government to annex Bosnia to the German Reich, so that the Bosnian Muslims would have the same status that they had had in the Austro-Hungarian Empire before the First World War.
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Re: The Grand Mufti of Jerusalem-- A role in the Holocaust?
Mr. Guttridge... i must also object to the notion that muslims which were part of German forces were fighting just for Arab nationalism. First they were mostly not Arabs but Bosniaks, Albanians, Tatars, Azerbaijani etc. You had also Arab Legion yes which was used first in North Africa and later against partisans in Greece. The spiritual leader of these forces was however Grand Mufti himself and his close companions. It would be more right to say they were mostly fighting against communism than for Arab nationalism. However also that is basically wrong notion...
First i would like to look at the question if it is possible to say that units which were collaborating with Germans and were under their command could really have just independent goals of their fighting?! I would argue that this is not possible because they have to obey their masters and were obviously used for their goals also. It is clear that they were consciousness about this, because they swore allegiance to the Third Reich.
There is not so much connection with later story in Palestine and Israel. The connection is in fact mostly in this way that Grand Mufti was formed as a person also as Nazi collaborator and that he was still spreading his extreme anti-Jewish hatred after WW2. He adapted old islamic traditions about Jews which must be like subjugated under sharia law with modern antisemitic and racist conspiracy theories about the evil influence which the Jews have on the world.
First i would like to look at the question if it is possible to say that units which were collaborating with Germans and were under their command could really have just independent goals of their fighting?! I would argue that this is not possible because they have to obey their masters and were obviously used for their goals also. It is clear that they were consciousness about this, because they swore allegiance to the Third Reich.
There is not so much connection with later story in Palestine and Israel. The connection is in fact mostly in this way that Grand Mufti was formed as a person also as Nazi collaborator and that he was still spreading his extreme anti-Jewish hatred after WW2. He adapted old islamic traditions about Jews which must be like subjugated under sharia law with modern antisemitic and racist conspiracy theories about the evil influence which the Jews have on the world.
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Re: The Grand Mufti of Jerusalem-- A role in the Holocaust?
Mr. Mills... yes that was also the motivation in the case of Bosnia, however i said it would be more right to say then that they were fighting against communism, but i explained already why also this is wrong notion.
Concerning Bosnia we should realize also that ustasha regime of NDH, which was known for its persecution of both Jews and Serbs considered muslims as Croats and Aryans and made them part of their forces. There was a sentiment yes that German rule might be like old Austrian one, also in Slovenia that happened, but it was a very wrong sentiment since Third Reich was nothing like Austrian empire, even hating it.
Concerning Bosnia we should realize also that ustasha regime of NDH, which was known for its persecution of both Jews and Serbs considered muslims as Croats and Aryans and made them part of their forces. There was a sentiment yes that German rule might be like old Austrian one, also in Slovenia that happened, but it was a very wrong sentiment since Third Reich was nothing like Austrian empire, even hating it.
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Re: The Grand Mufti of Jerusalem-- A role in the Holocaust?
Hi SL,
I made no suggestion that "muslims which were part of German forces were fighting just for Arab nationalism", so I don't have to defend that. I was addressing your repeated formulation, "Grand Mufti and his companions.....", which is relevant to the subject of this thread. They were Arab nationalists for whom Anglo-French imperialism was a more immediate threat than Communism. The following text of the Hitler-Mufti meeting makes his Arabo-centric view clear: https://www.timesofisrael.com/full-offi ... to-hitler/
I have not mentioned the far more numerous Eastern Legions of Soviet minorities, for whom Soviet Communism was their immediate threat.
If any Arabs wanted to fight against British or French rule during WWII, they could only do this in Axis ranks, for which they had to take an oath to the Third Reich. They were Arab nationalists, in much the same way as the Estonians and Latvians who served in German ranks were nationalists. None of these people were fighting for German national goals but for their own national goals. Why would an Arab care about German war aims such as the Polish Corridor, or Alsace-Lorraine, or Lebensaraum in the East? For them, the route to Jerusalem went via Berlin.
Cheers,
Sid.
I made no suggestion that "muslims which were part of German forces were fighting just for Arab nationalism", so I don't have to defend that. I was addressing your repeated formulation, "Grand Mufti and his companions.....", which is relevant to the subject of this thread. They were Arab nationalists for whom Anglo-French imperialism was a more immediate threat than Communism. The following text of the Hitler-Mufti meeting makes his Arabo-centric view clear: https://www.timesofisrael.com/full-offi ... to-hitler/
I have not mentioned the far more numerous Eastern Legions of Soviet minorities, for whom Soviet Communism was their immediate threat.
If any Arabs wanted to fight against British or French rule during WWII, they could only do this in Axis ranks, for which they had to take an oath to the Third Reich. They were Arab nationalists, in much the same way as the Estonians and Latvians who served in German ranks were nationalists. None of these people were fighting for German national goals but for their own national goals. Why would an Arab care about German war aims such as the Polish Corridor, or Alsace-Lorraine, or Lebensaraum in the East? For them, the route to Jerusalem went via Berlin.
Cheers,
Sid.
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Re: The Grand Mufti of Jerusalem-- A role in the Holocaust?
Still it is the same logic which i do not agree with as i said already. No such unit which was part of German forces and swore its allegiance to Third Reich and Hitler can not claim that they were fighting Just for their own goals in complete separation from German and even Nazi goals. We should not take any such claim as realistic.
The goal of muslims in WW2 as it was defined by Grand Mufti and his companions - Nazi collaborators should be that in the alliance with Germany under Hitler they Will also drive the Jews out of all muslim countries. Jews lived there before British rule subjogated under Sharia Law, but now they should all be expelled. It May be of course that they were there even before muslim rule. This was adaptation of old islamic traditions with modern antisemitic and racist conspiracy theories as i said already and was done by Grand Mufti himself.
The goal of muslims in WW2 as it was defined by Grand Mufti and his companions - Nazi collaborators should be that in the alliance with Germany under Hitler they Will also drive the Jews out of all muslim countries. Jews lived there before British rule subjogated under Sharia Law, but now they should all be expelled. It May be of course that they were there even before muslim rule. This was adaptation of old islamic traditions with modern antisemitic and racist conspiracy theories as i said already and was done by Grand Mufti himself.
Re: The Grand Mufti of Jerusalem-- A role in the Holocaust?
1941 Grand Mufti of Jerusalem meets the Fuhrer
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File ... Hitler.jpg
2022
Grand Mufti of Jerusalem is still an Hussein
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muhammad_Ahmad_Hussein
as they say..despite the passage of time..in some places Nothing ever changes but is still the same.....
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File ... Hitler.jpg
2022
Grand Mufti of Jerusalem is still an Hussein
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muhammad_Ahmad_Hussein
as they say..despite the passage of time..in some places Nothing ever changes but is still the same.....