The Grand Mufti of Jerusalem-- A role in the Holocaust?

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Princess Perfume
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Re: The Grand Mufti of Jerusalem-- A role in the Holocaust?

Post by Princess Perfume » 03 Apr 2023 01:20

The correlation between education and irreligion is real and universal, but it typically takes several generations to become apparent. My grandparents were practising Anglicans. My parents wrote "Anglican" on their census form but never went to church except for weddings and funerals. My siblings and I all emerged from Anglican schools as non-believers.

The correlation is less apparent in the non-Western world, where religion has powerful social and institutional supports, but even in countries where adherence to religion is enforced by the state, the same forces are at work beneath the surface. The online Arabic translation of Richard Dawkins's "The God Delusion" has been downloaded 10 million times. In countries where opinion polling is possible, such as Egypt, Tunisia and Lebanon, the drift away from religion is clear

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Re: The Grand Mufti of Jerusalem-- A role in the Holocaust?

Post by CogCalgary » 03 Apr 2023 01:36

wm wrote:
03 Apr 2023 01:07
CogCalgary wrote:
02 Apr 2023 21:37
Not that large but everybody that drank from that source would be affected.Pinterest.
Biological warfare isn't that easy and requires extensive research and preparation. Germs aren't that cooperative, actually, and have lots of quirks.
It is hardly believable that Fascist Italy invested so much in a plan that was totally unrelated to Mussolini's war goals.
See posts #171 and #172 in this thread with the pdf attached.As early as 1936 the Italians were planning to poison the water."Farben" was well know to likely a very small number of Italian soldiers.
The Mufti pleaded and pledged full support during his meeting with Hitler in Nov 1941.

Hitler chickened out for round 2.

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Re: The Grand Mufti of Jerusalem-- A role in the Holocaust?

Post by Sid Guttridge » 06 Apr 2023 10:18

Hi CogCalgary,

Your link in Post #172 is very interesting. Thank you.

It is rather vague as to what the "contamination" of Tel Avi'v's water supply may consist of. From the text, it appears it may be associated with the use of oil. In any event, apart from one mention it appears to have gone nowhere.

The contamination of wells was a longstanding Arab tactic of desperation in desert warfare and, indeed, elsewhere. In fact, on a local level there have been relatively recent accusations that some Jewish settlers on the West Bank have poisoned Palestinian village wells with the carcasses of dead chickens.

It also appears that accusations of the Jews adulterating wells are one of the "blood libels" from Medieval Europe.

Cheers,

Sid.

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Re: The Grand Mufti of Jerusalem-- A role in the Holocaust?

Post by CogCalgary » 06 Apr 2023 10:36

We can see various examples where communication goes back channel with the Italians.Ciano's diaries were much sought after.Simply poisoning a communal water source would not have won any friends among the Arab population.

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Re: The Grand Mufti of Jerusalem-- A role in the Holocaust?

Post by gebhk » 06 Apr 2023 11:58

Princess Perfume wrote:
03 Apr 2023 01:20
The correlation between education and irreligion is real and universal, but it typically takes several generations to become apparent.
I would agree albeit it is important to differentiate between correlation and cause and effect. I would suggest that, like most things, ultimately religiosity boils down to security and economics - specifically religiosity tends to wane with growing affluence and security (with, I suspect issues of locus of control being involved) and, conversely, education tends to thrive better the more affluent and secure the society. As the old Polish saying goes (loosely translated) 'when afraid, they flock to God' and the well-educated are not immune to this phenomenon. It is noticeable throughout history how periods of stress (such as wars, plagues, etc) promoted overall increases in religious observance and the more extreme expressions of religious fervor (such as self-flagellation to name but one). Much the same can be said of civilisation vs barbarism (in the modern sense of the word), of course.

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Re: The Grand Mufti of Jerusalem-- A role in the Holocaust?

Post by wm » 06 Apr 2023 12:24

Sid Guttridge wrote:
06 Apr 2023 10:18
The contamination of wells was a longstanding Arab tactic of desperation in desert warfare and, indeed, elsewhere. In fact, on a local level there have been relatively recent accusations that some Jewish settlers on the West Bank have poisoned Palestinian village wells with the carcasses of dead chickens.
nach palestine.jpg
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Re: The Grand Mufti of Jerusalem-- A role in the Holocaust?

Post by Princess Perfume » 06 Apr 2023 14:42

gebhk wrote:
06 Apr 2023 11:58
Princess Perfume wrote:
03 Apr 2023 01:20
The correlation between education and irreligion is real and universal, but it typically takes several generations to become apparent.
I would agree albeit it is important to differentiate between correlation and cause and effect. I would suggest that, like most things, ultimately religiosity boils down to security and economics - specifically religiosity tends to wane with growing affluence and security (with, I suspect issues of locus of control being involved) and, conversely, education tends to thrive better the more affluent and secure the society. As the old Polish saying goes (loosely translated) 'when afraid, they flock to God' and the well-educated are not immune to this phenomenon. It is noticeable throughout history how periods of stress (such as wars, plagues, etc) promoted overall increases in religious observance and the more extreme expressions of religious fervor (such as self-flagellation to name but one). Much the same can be said of civilisation vs barbarism (in the modern sense of the word), of course.
You make a good point, and it is Interesting how the need for substance in an unexamined life often times leads to gullibility.

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Re: The Grand Mufti of Jerusalem-- A role in the Holocaust?

Post by ljadw » 06 Apr 2023 14:58

wm wrote:
17 Mar 2023 15:11
I don't quite understand why a (probably totally inept) mission is held against the Mufti - if he wasn't a British citizen or even a citizen of any Allied nation.

When at the same time, the Jewish underground in Palestine (full of deserters from the Polish Army to boot) fought militarily against the British - setting bombs, and killing soldiers and politicians. And the people who did it get hero treatment today.
Members of the IRA fought militarily against the British,setting bombs,and killing soldiers,politicians and civilians.And those who did it,get hero treatment today .
Thus the Jewish underground are the bad guys and the IRA the good guys ??

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Re: The Grand Mufti of Jerusalem-- A role in the Holocaust?

Post by Princess Perfume » 07 Apr 2023 11:03

The ungovernability of the Arab world today is a problem the Arabs will have to solve for themselves. That the dominant Islam practiced in most Muslim-majority countries is just as patriarchal, misogynistic and homophobic as conservative Christianity will also have to be faced some day.

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Re: The Grand Mufti of Jerusalem-- A role in the Holocaust?

Post by wm » 07 Apr 2023 22:06

So ancient cultures need to be destroyed because of the hurt feelings of a tiny minority? In Arab countries, homosexuals are asked (as everybody else actually) to keep their sexuality private.
Recently, in Saudi Arabia, a man beat up her wife so brutally that she lost her eye. It was permanent damage, so the judge asked her if she wanted justice or vengeance. And she said vengeance - an eye for an eye.
I'm yet to meet a woman who wouldn't comment "nice" about that.
Strict social rules, if universally accepted, have their advantages; they give you certainty and safety you will not find in London or Paris.

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Re: The Grand Mufti of Jerusalem-- A role in the Holocaust?

Post by wm » 07 Apr 2023 22:55

CogCalgary wrote:
03 Apr 2023 01:36
See posts #171 and #172 in this thread with the pdf attached.As early as 1936 the Italians were planning to poison the water."Farben" was well know to likely a very small number of Italian soldiers.
The Mufti pleaded and pledged full support during his meeting with Hitler in Nov 1941.

Hitler chickened out for round 2.
It's hard to believe, without evidence, that Hitler, at the time when the fate of his invasion of Russia and actually the very fate of Germany was decided, concerned himself with such a triviality.
Only by defeating the Soviets, he had a chance of winning the war. In the grand scheme of things, Palestine was of no importance whatsoever.

And an attack, especially with a biological weapon, required extensive research and preparation, on par with the infamous Unit 731 (not that successful in the end). Both Germany and Italy had no experience in that.

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Re: The Grand Mufti of Jerusalem-- A role in the Holocaust?

Post by CogCalgary » 08 Apr 2023 01:38

wm wrote:
07 Apr 2023 22:55
CogCalgary wrote:
03 Apr 2023 01:36
See posts #171 and #172 in this thread with the pdf attached.As early as 1936 the Italians were planning to poison the water."Farben" was well know to likely a very small number of Italian soldiers.
The Mufti pleaded and pledged full support during his meeting with Hitler in Nov 1941.

Hitler chickened out for round 2.
It's hard to believe, without evidence, that Hitler, at the time when the fate of his invasion of Russia and actually the very fate of Germany was decided, concerned himself with such a triviality.
Only by defeating the Soviets, he had a chance of winning the war. In the grand scheme of things, Palestine was of no importance whatsoever.

And an attack, especially with a biological weapon, required extensive research and preparation, on par with the infamous Unit 731 (not that successful in the end). Both Germany and Italy had no experience in that.
We don't know if it was a biological weapon.As I mentioned earlier the Jewish quarter had private waterlines supplying water.The Germans had sarin and that other volatile gas which proved unsuitable for use,what's to say that they didn't have other agents in powder form?
Palestine was the British entry point by sea for the M.E.Syria was French,Turkey was neutral.The oil terminus at Tripoli di Syria was the target of a planned attack from British trained Jewish commandos from their base in Palestine,May 1941..Which was snuffed by the Italian commandos.As you know,the Germans also made a play for Iraq.They needed those oilfields.
Don't believe those other hogwash stories about 1944.

June 1941.When things were happening in the M.E.
BTW,the records of the British sub HMS Sealion(72S) are sealed for May 1941,I checked about 15 years ago.The Jewish commandos came by submarine to attack the terminus with an SOE agent,Palmer.Plenty was at stake here.

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Re: The Grand Mufti of Jerusalem-- A role in the Holocaust?

Post by ljadw » 08 Apr 2023 07:04

CogCalgary wrote:
08 Apr 2023 01:38
wm wrote:
07 Apr 2023 22:55
CogCalgary wrote:
03 Apr 2023 01:36
See posts #171 and #172 in this thread with the pdf attached.As early as 1936 the Italians were planning to poison the water."Farben" was well know to likely a very small number of Italian soldiers.
The Mufti pleaded and pledged full support during his meeting with Hitler in Nov 1941.

Hitler chickened out for round 2.
It's hard to believe, without evidence, that Hitler, at the time when the fate of his invasion of Russia and actually the very fate of Germany was decided, concerned himself with such a triviality.
Only by defeating the Soviets, he had a chance of winning the war. In the grand scheme of things, Palestine was of no importance whatsoever.

And an attack, especially with a biological weapon, required extensive research and preparation, on par with the infamous Unit 731 (not that successful in the end). Both Germany and Italy had no experience in that.
We don't know if it was a biological weapon.As I mentioned earlier the Jewish quarter had private waterlines supplying water.The Germans had sarin and that other volatile gas which proved unsuitable for use,what's to say that they didn't have other agents in powder form?
Palestine was the British entry point by sea for the M.E.Syria was French,Turkey was neutral.The oil terminus at Tripoli di Syria was the target of a planned attack from British trained Jewish commandos from their base in Palestine,May 1941..Which was snuffed by the Italian commandos.As you know,the Germans also made a play for Iraq.They needed those oilfields.
Don't believe those other hogwash stories about 1944.

June 1941.When things were happening in the M.E.
BTW,the records of the British sub HMS Sealion(72S) are sealed for May 1941,I checked about 15 years ago.The Jewish commandos came by submarine to attack the terminus with an SOE agent,Palmer.Plenty was at stake here.
There is no proof that Germany needed the oilfields of Iraq and that they could transport this oil to Germany .

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Re: The Grand Mufti of Jerusalem-- A role in the Holocaust?

Post by CogCalgary » 08 Apr 2023 11:34

ljadw wrote:
08 Apr 2023 07:04
CogCalgary wrote:
08 Apr 2023 01:38
wm wrote:
07 Apr 2023 22:55
CogCalgary wrote:
03 Apr 2023 01:36
See posts #171 and #172 in this thread with the pdf attached.As early as 1936 the Italians were planning to poison the water."Farben" was well know to likely a very small number of Italian soldiers.
The Mufti pleaded and pledged full support during his meeting with Hitler in Nov 1941.

Hitler chickened out for round 2.
It's hard to believe, without evidence, that Hitler, at the time when the fate of his invasion of Russia and actually the very fate of Germany was decided, concerned himself with such a triviality.
Only by defeating the Soviets, he had a chance of winning the war. In the grand scheme of things, Palestine was of no importance whatsoever.

And an attack, especially with a biological weapon, required extensive research and preparation, on par with the infamous Unit 731 (not that successful in the end). Both Germany and Italy had no experience in that.
We don't know if it was a biological weapon.As I mentioned earlier the Jewish quarter had private waterlines supplying water.The Germans had sarin and that other volatile gas which proved unsuitable for use,what's to say that they didn't have other agents in powder form?
Palestine was the British entry point by sea for the M.E.Syria was French,Turkey was neutral.The oil terminus at Tripoli di Syria was the target of a planned attack from British trained Jewish commandos from their base in Palestine,May 1941..Which was snuffed by the Italian commandos.As you know,the Germans also made a play for Iraq.They needed those oilfields.
Don't believe those other hogwash stories about 1944.

June 1941.When things were happening in the M.E.
BTW,the records of the British sub HMS Sealion(72S) are sealed for May 1941,I checked about 15 years ago.The Jewish commandos came by submarine to attack the terminus with an SOE agent,Palmer.Plenty was at stake here.
There is no proof that Germany needed the oilfields of Iraq and that they could transport this oil to Germany .
Since when did the Germans enjoy a stable plentiful supply of petroleum products?Apparently by May 1941 German High Command predicted that the fuel situation would become serious.They were in Iraq for no reason?
The oil terminus at Tripoli di Syria needed to be secured for starters.Clearing out the Jews would be a needed second step.

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Re: The Grand Mufti of Jerusalem-- A role in the Holocaust?

Post by wm » 08 Apr 2023 13:03

CogCalgary wrote:
08 Apr 2023 01:38
We don't know if it was a biological weapon.As I mentioned earlier the Jewish quarter had private waterlines supplying water.The Germans had sarin and that other volatile gas which proved unsuitable for use,what's to say that they didn't have other agents in powder form?
Although Germany and Italy, in war with Western allies, respected the Hague and Geneva Conventions, which "especially forbidden" "poison or poisoned weapons," not to mention chemical weapons.

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