The Grand Mufti of Jerusalem-- A role in the Holocaust?

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Princess Perfume
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Re: The Grand Mufti of Jerusalem-- A role in the Holocaust?

Post by Princess Perfume » 08 Apr 2023 14:00

overly worrying about civilian causalities such as in the atomic bombings ignores the fact that modern war is fought by fully mobilised nations, not just professional armies, and that includes factories etc. that are all legitimate military targets. And also, that plenty of civilians are part of a modern nation's war effort.

CogCalgary
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Re: The Grand Mufti of Jerusalem-- A role in the Holocaust?

Post by CogCalgary » 08 Apr 2023 15:19

wm wrote:
08 Apr 2023 13:03
CogCalgary wrote:
08 Apr 2023 01:38
We don't know if it was a biological weapon.As I mentioned earlier the Jewish quarter had private waterlines supplying water.The Germans had sarin and that other volatile gas which proved unsuitable for use,what's to say that they didn't have other agents in powder form?
Although Germany and Italy, in war with Western allies, respected the Hague and Geneva Conventions, which "especially forbidden" "poison or poisoned weapons," not to mention chemical weapons.
IIRC,Enrico Cernushi said that there was an "accident" in Yugoslavia where mustard gas shells were mistakenly employed near some caves against partisans.
The Americans brought mustard gas to Bari in 1944.An incident with two fisherman snagging some barrels in the vicinity with one death was quickly erased about a dozen years ago.Mustard gas solidifies after decades and becomes inert.
I can tell you that sarin was used on a small scale in Yugoslavia.Very easy to handle in liquid form at room temperature.Wear gloves.Placed in a cold fireplace,it lies waiting while the perps move on.

What if a commando team had no identifiable uniforms and no dog tags?Commandos know how that game is played.Winner takes all.Sometimes they didn't even know where they were.If this place was Jerusalem,they would need some help to conceal 30+ men.Only a mosque could accommodate this with no suspicions being aroused.

ljadw
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Re: The Grand Mufti of Jerusalem-- A role in the Holocaust?

Post by ljadw » 08 Apr 2023 15:30

CogCalgary wrote:
08 Apr 2023 11:34
ljadw wrote:
08 Apr 2023 07:04
CogCalgary wrote:
08 Apr 2023 01:38
wm wrote:
07 Apr 2023 22:55
CogCalgary wrote:
03 Apr 2023 01:36
See posts #171 and #172 in this thread with the pdf attached.As early as 1936 the Italians were planning to poison the water."Farben" was well know to likely a very small number of Italian soldiers.
The Mufti pleaded and pledged full support during his meeting with Hitler in Nov 1941.

Hitler chickened out for round 2.
It's hard to believe, without evidence, that Hitler, at the time when the fate of his invasion of Russia and actually the very fate of Germany was decided, concerned himself with such a triviality.
Only by defeating the Soviets, he had a chance of winning the war. In the grand scheme of things, Palestine was of no importance whatsoever.

And an attack, especially with a biological weapon, required extensive research and preparation, on par with the infamous Unit 731 (not that successful in the end). Both Germany and Italy had no experience in that.
We don't know if it was a biological weapon.As I mentioned earlier the Jewish quarter had private waterlines supplying water.The Germans had sarin and that other volatile gas which proved unsuitable for use,what's to say that they didn't have other agents in powder form?
Palestine was the British entry point by sea for the M.E.Syria was French,Turkey was neutral.The oil terminus at Tripoli di Syria was the target of a planned attack from British trained Jewish commandos from their base in Palestine,May 1941..Which was snuffed by the Italian commandos.As you know,the Germans also made a play for Iraq.They needed those oilfields.
Don't believe those other hogwash stories about 1944.

June 1941.When things were happening in the M.E.
BTW,the records of the British sub HMS Sealion(72S) are sealed for May 1941,I checked about 15 years ago.The Jewish commandos came by submarine to attack the terminus with an SOE agent,Palmer.Plenty was at stake here.
There is no proof that Germany needed the oilfields of Iraq and that they could transport this oil to Germany .
Since when did the Germans enjoy a stable plentiful supply of petroleum products?Apparently by May 1941 German High Command predicted that the fuel situation would become serious.They were in Iraq for no reason?
The oil terminus at Tripoli di Syria needed to be secured for starters.Clearing out the Jews would be a needed second step.
What Wagner said about the fuel situation,was wrong and irrelevant . The fuel situation became not serious after May 1941 . And they did not send a few men to Iraq because they needed the Iraqi petroleum, but because they thought wrongfully that Britain needed the oil from Iraq .The German fuel situation was not worse in December 1941 than in May 1941 . If Barbarossa was successful in 1941, Germany would need less oi in its war against Britain .
And a plentiful supply of petroleum products is also meaningless :the Germans did not need a plentiful supply of petroleum products , but they needed sufficient oil,fuel ,and sufficient was not determined by the amount of petroleum products that was available, but by the amount that was needed to execute certain aims .
Example : aviation oil
Consumption was 863000 tons in 1940,1274000 in 1941,1426000 in 1942 ,1825000 in 1943, 1403000 in 1944 . And the military situation of Germany was not better in 1944 than in 1941 .
Even if the Germans could capture the Iraqi oil installations before they were destroyed, they could not resume the oil production.
Even if they could resume the oil production, they could not guard the pipelines needed to transport the oil to harbours on the Middle East Coast of the Mediterranean .
Even if they could transport the oil to these harbours , they had not the tankers to transport this oil to harbours on the European Coast of the Mediterranean .
Even if this oil arrived at these European harbours, it could not be transported to Germany .
Even if it could be transported to Germany and refined by the Axis, it could not be transported to the front .
Even if it was transported to the front, the results would be meaningless :
more fuel does not result in more aircraft and more crew,more fuel for the army does not result in more trucks,tanks , technicians and more crew .More crew for the KM does not mean more operational submarines ,and more operational submarines does not mean more sinkings of Merchant Vessels .
The big problem for the East and also for other ToO was not the production of oil,but the transport to the regions were it was needed .

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Re: The Grand Mufti of Jerusalem-- A role in the Holocaust?

Post by wm » 08 Apr 2023 17:08

CogCalgary wrote:
08 Apr 2023 15:19
IIRC,Enrico Cernushi said that there was an "accident" in Yugoslavia where mustard gas shells were mistakenly employed near some caves against partisans.
The Americans brought mustard gas to Bari in 1944.
Production and storage of chemical weapons weren't forbidden, so there was nothing wrong with that.
Last edited by wm on 08 Apr 2023 23:02, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: The Grand Mufti of Jerusalem-- A role in the Holocaust?

Post by CogCalgary » 08 Apr 2023 22:46

ljadw wrote:
08 Apr 2023 15:30
CogCalgary wrote:
08 Apr 2023 11:34
ljadw wrote:
08 Apr 2023 07:04
CogCalgary wrote:
08 Apr 2023 01:38
wm wrote:
07 Apr 2023 22:55


It's hard to believe, without evidence, that Hitler, at the time when the fate of his invasion of Russia and actually the very fate of Germany was decided, concerned himself with such a triviality.
Only by defeating the Soviets, he had a chance of winning the war. In the grand scheme of things, Palestine was of no importance whatsoever.

And an attack, especially with a biological weapon, required extensive research and preparation, on par with the infamous Unit 731 (not that successful in the end). Both Germany and Italy had no experience in that.
We don't know if it was a biological weapon.As I mentioned earlier the Jewish quarter had private waterlines supplying water.The Germans had sarin and that other volatile gas which proved unsuitable for use,what's to say that they didn't have other agents in powder form?
Palestine was the British entry point by sea for the M.E.Syria was French,Turkey was neutral.The oil terminus at Tripoli di Syria was the target of a planned attack from British trained Jewish commandos from their base in Palestine,May 1941..Which was snuffed by the Italian commandos.As you know,the Germans also made a play for Iraq.They needed those oilfields.
Don't believe those other hogwash stories about 1944.

June 1941.When things were happening in the M.E.
BTW,the records of the British sub HMS Sealion(72S) are sealed for May 1941,I checked about 15 years ago.The Jewish commandos came by submarine to attack the terminus with an SOE agent,Palmer.Plenty was at stake here.
There is no proof that Germany needed the oilfields of Iraq and that they could transport this oil to Germany .
Since when did the Germans enjoy a stable plentiful supply of petroleum products?Apparently by May 1941 German High Command predicted that the fuel situation would become serious.They were in Iraq for no reason?
The oil terminus at Tripoli di Syria needed to be secured for starters.Clearing out the Jews would be a needed second step.
What Wagner said about the fuel situation,was wrong and irrelevant . The fuel situation became not serious after May 1941 . And they did not send a few men to Iraq because they needed the Iraqi petroleum, but because they thought wrongfully that Britain needed the oil from Iraq .The German fuel situation was not worse in December 1941 than in May 1941 . If Barbarossa was successful in 1941, Germany would need less oi in its war against Britain .
And a plentiful supply of petroleum products is also meaningless :the Germans did not need a plentiful supply of petroleum products , but they needed sufficient oil,fuel ,and sufficient was not determined by the amount of petroleum products that was available, but by the amount that was needed to execute certain aims .
Example : aviation oil
Consumption was 863000 tons in 1940,1274000 in 1941,1426000 in 1942 ,1825000 in 1943, 1403000 in 1944 . And the military situation of Germany was not better in 1944 than in 1941 .
Even if the Germans could capture the Iraqi oil installations before they were destroyed, they could not resume the oil production.
Even if they could resume the oil production, they could not guard the pipelines needed to transport the oil to harbours on the Middle East Coast of the Mediterranean .
Even if they could transport the oil to these harbours , they had not the tankers to transport this oil to harbours on the European Coast of the Mediterranean .
Even if this oil arrived at these European harbours, it could not be transported to Germany .
Even if it could be transported to Germany and refined by the Axis, it could not be transported to the front .
Even if it was transported to the front, the results would be meaningless :
more fuel does not result in more aircraft and more crew,more fuel for the army does not result in more trucks,tanks , technicians and more crew .More crew for the KM does not mean more operational submarines ,and more operational submarines does not mean more sinkings of Merchant Vessels .
The big problem for the East and also for other ToO was not the production of oil,but the transport to the regions were it was needed .
Wolfpack West was decimating Allied shipping efforts at this exact time.Did the Allies give up?
If the Germans wanted to deny Allied acess to Iraqui oilfields,why not just destroy the Tripoli di Syria terminus themselves?They held out hope.
It was the SOE that sent the Palmach commandos to destroy the terminus and they were stopped.

IIRC,Churchill made a comment that the cost of this campaign was very reasonable for what it accomplished.

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Re: The Grand Mufti of Jerusalem-- A role in the Holocaust?

Post by ljadw » 09 Apr 2023 10:04

The situation in 1941 was the following :
The WM had failed to force the UK to give up and meanwhile US was arming to join the war .Against a British/US coalition Germany was powerless .
The only possibility was to prevent the US from entering the war by forcing Britain to give up .And this could, following Hitler only happen by the elimination of the USSR,as Germany could directly do nothing against the US.
Iraq was for Germany very secondary ,for Britain it was more important but still secondary as Britain's oil came mainly from the American continent .
Iraq was for Churchill only politically important :the tabloids would whine if Iraq was lost and would blame him .
Tripoli di Syria was not important for Britain as it was a French colony and as Britain did not use the Mediterranean to transport its oil .The Palmach commandos were used to prevent the Germans from using the terminus .

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Re: The Grand Mufti of Jerusalem-- A role in the Holocaust?

Post by Sid Guttridge » 09 Apr 2023 14:50

Hi CogCalgary,

You say, "Simply poisoning a communal water source would not have won any friends among the Arab population."

Tel Aviv is a 100 year old Jewish creation largely separate from neighbouring Jaffa. Contaminating its water supply could probably have beeen achieved without affecting a significant number of Arabs.

Cheers,

Sid

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Re: The Grand Mufti of Jerusalem-- A role in the Holocaust?

Post by CogCalgary » 09 Apr 2023 15:00

Sid Guttridge wrote:
09 Apr 2023 14:50
Hi CogCalgary,

You say, "Simply poisoning a communal water source would not have won any friends among the Arab population."

Tel Aviv is a 100 year old Jewish creation largely separate from neighbouring Jaffa. Contaminating its water supply could probably have beeen achieved without affecting a significant number of Arabs.

Cheers,

Sid
Why Tel Aviv?For their good friend the Mufti,Jerusalem would be the prize .
Inserting paras near the coast would be a much more difficult task I would think.Come in through the back door.

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Re: The Grand Mufti of Jerusalem-- A role in the Holocaust?

Post by CogCalgary » 09 Apr 2023 15:17

ljadw wrote:
09 Apr 2023 10:04
The situation in 1941 was the following :
The WM had failed to force the UK to give up and meanwhile US was arming to join the war .Against a British/US coalition Germany was powerless .
The only possibility was to prevent the US from entering the war by forcing Britain to give up .And this could, following Hitler only happen by the elimination of the USSR,as Germany could directly do nothing against the US.
Iraq was for Germany very secondary ,for Britain it was more important but still secondary as Britain's oil came mainly from the American continent .
Iraq was for Churchill only politically important :the tabloids would whine if Iraq was lost and would blame him .
Tripoli di Syria was not important for Britain as it was a French colony and as Britain did not use the Mediterranean to transport its oil .The Palmach commandos were used to prevent the Germans from using the terminus .
Tripoli di Syria was under Vichy French control.
As mentioned,wolfpacks were gorging on Allied shipping in the Atlantic at this exact time.
Bombing continued in England.
Rommel took control of North African forces and Egypt was the goal .
Nothing was certain.Churches were full.

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Re: The Grand Mufti of Jerusalem-- A role in the Holocaust?

Post by Loïc » 09 Apr 2023 15:42

Air de déjà vu already precised : Tripoli is in Lebanon, not Syria, Lebanon is not part of Syria since the autonomy thanks to the French intervention of 1860 and there was no more oil coming from this pipeline after july 1940, the French Petroleum Company kept its partnership and strong financial commercial interests with the British and Americans, e.g. the CFR (future Total Coy.) bought petroleum via the United States Company Socony Vacuum, Britain shared and kept strongs commercial and financial interests with Vichy France almost throughout the war

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Re: The Grand Mufti of Jerusalem-- A role in the Holocaust?

Post by CogCalgary » 09 Apr 2023 15:55

Sorry for being imprecise.Yes,part of the Levant.Big money was involved there.It was a gold mine.Churchill recognized the importance of oil very early in his career.

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Re: The Grand Mufti of Jerusalem-- A role in the Holocaust?

Post by RedTelephone » 09 Apr 2023 17:11

As a new member of this forum I am rather disappointed that rather than discuss the actual topic some members appear to making political points about the current political Israeli Palestinian issue.
Some rather disturbing commentary along the lines of ‘ might is right’ / resistance is futile/ they deserve everything they get/ they should be grateful etcetc .

Should the forum moderators not be taking action here after repeated warnings?

I thought this was NOT an keyboard warrior political site ?

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Re: The Grand Mufti of Jerusalem-- A role in the Holocaust?

Post by ljadw » 09 Apr 2023 17:13

CogCalgary wrote:
09 Apr 2023 15:17
ljadw wrote:
09 Apr 2023 10:04
The situation in 1941 was the following :
The WM had failed to force the UK to give up and meanwhile US was arming to join the war .Against a British/US coalition Germany was powerless .
The only possibility was to prevent the US from entering the war by forcing Britain to give up .And this could, following Hitler only happen by the elimination of the USSR,as Germany could directly do nothing against the US.
Iraq was for Germany very secondary ,for Britain it was more important but still secondary as Britain's oil came mainly from the American continent .
Iraq was for Churchill only politically important :the tabloids would whine if Iraq was lost and would blame him .
Tripoli di Syria was not important for Britain as it was a French colony and as Britain did not use the Mediterranean to transport its oil .The Palmach commandos were used to prevent the Germans from using the terminus .
Tripoli di Syria was under Vichy French control.
As mentioned,wolfpacks were gorging on Allied shipping in the Atlantic at this exact time.
Bombing continued in England.
Rommel took control of North African forces and Egypt was the goal .
Nothing was certain.Churches were full.
The wolfpacks were attacking not the Allied shipping in 1941, but the British shipping :war between Germany and US started de jure on 11 December 1941 .Besides the results of the wolfpacks were unimportant,as they could not force Britain to surrender .
The results of the bomber attacks on Britain were the same :the LW failed .
Egypt was not Syria and the loss of Egypt or even of the ME would not force Britain to surrender .
The Heer failed, the LW failed, the KM failed .

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Re: The Grand Mufti of Jerusalem-- A role in the Holocaust?

Post by ljadw » 09 Apr 2023 17:19

One should not exaggerate the importance of the Iranian oil and the Anglo-Persian oil company : the Iranian oil production was in 1918 only 2 % or less of the world oil production .
Oil became important outside the US only after WW1 .

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Re: The Grand Mufti of Jerusalem-- A role in the Holocaust?

Post by CogCalgary » 09 Apr 2023 19:34

ljadw wrote:
09 Apr 2023 17:19
One should not exaggerate the importance of the Iranian oil and the Anglo-Persian oil company : the Iranian oil production was in 1918 only 2 % or less of the world oil production .
Oil became important outside the US only after WW1 .
IIRC,Britain did not want to bring Iranian production up to speed for fear of flooding the market.

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