The Grand Mufti of Jerusalem-- A role in the Holocaust?

Discussions on the Holocaust and 20th Century War Crimes. Note that Holocaust denial is not allowed. Hosted by David Thompson.
CogCalgary
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Posts: 411
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Location: Calgary

Re: The Grand Mufti of Jerusalem-- A role in the Holocaust?

Post by CogCalgary » 09 Apr 2023 19:40

ljadw wrote:
09 Apr 2023 17:13
CogCalgary wrote:
09 Apr 2023 15:17
ljadw wrote:
09 Apr 2023 10:04
The situation in 1941 was the following :
The WM had failed to force the UK to give up and meanwhile US was arming to join the war .Against a British/US coalition Germany was powerless .
The only possibility was to prevent the US from entering the war by forcing Britain to give up .And this could, following Hitler only happen by the elimination of the USSR,as Germany could directly do nothing against the US.
Iraq was for Germany very secondary ,for Britain it was more important but still secondary as Britain's oil came mainly from the American continent .
Iraq was for Churchill only politically important :the tabloids would whine if Iraq was lost and would blame him .
Tripoli di Syria was not important for Britain as it was a French colony and as Britain did not use the Mediterranean to transport its oil .The Palmach commandos were used to prevent the Germans from using the terminus .
Tripoli di Syria was under Vichy French control.
As mentioned,wolfpacks were gorging on Allied shipping in the Atlantic at this exact time.
Bombing continued in England.
Rommel took control of North African forces and Egypt was the goal .
Nothing was certain.Churches were full.
The wolfpacks were attacking not the Allied shipping in 1941, but the British shipping :war between Germany and US started de jure on 11 December 1941 .Besides the results of the wolfpacks were unimportant,as they could not force Britain to surrender .
The results of the bomber attacks on Britain were the same :the LW failed .
Egypt was not Syria and the loss of Egypt or even of the ME would not force Britain to surrender .
The Heer failed, the LW failed, the KM failed .
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wolfpack_West

First entry is May 8,1941.
19 out of 23 U-boat commanders went on to receive the Knight'Cross.Most ships were British.Sure sounds successful.19 in May 1941 alone were sunk.

CogCalgary
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Location: Calgary

Re: The Grand Mufti of Jerusalem-- A role in the Holocaust?

Post by CogCalgary » 09 Apr 2023 19:54

Sid Guttridge wrote:
09 Apr 2023 14:50
Hi CogCalgary,

You say, "Simply poisoning a communal water source would not have won any friends among the Arab population."

Tel Aviv is a 100 year old Jewish creation largely separate from neighbouring Jaffa. Contaminating its water supply could probably have beeen achieved without affecting a significant number of Arabs.

Cheers,

Sid
Tel Aviv may well have been the next destination,but all sources I have seen point to 5 or 6 paras being discovered near Jericho in the ancient monastery.So Jerusalem was within distance.Not all members of a unit might know their immediate destination.Apparenyly the British Palestine Police members were quite creative in their interrogation methods.

ljadw
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Posts: 15472
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Re: The Grand Mufti of Jerusalem-- A role in the Holocaust?

Post by ljadw » 09 Apr 2023 20:02

Til after ww1 there was no need for the Iranian oil in Britain .The Iranian oil was only used to supply the RN and the Merchant Fleet that were operating east of Suez .
The total oil production in 1918 was 68,9 million of tons of which 1,385 million for Iran ( some sources talk of 0,9 million ) and 48,8 million in the US .
The British industry and the BEF could get all the oil they needed ,from the US and the transport from the US was easier and shorter .
In 1940 US oil production was 180 million tons,Iranian oil production 10 million .

ljadw
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Posts: 15472
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Re: The Grand Mufti of Jerusalem-- A role in the Holocaust?

Post by ljadw » 09 Apr 2023 20:16

CogCalgary wrote:
09 Apr 2023 19:40
ljadw wrote:
09 Apr 2023 17:13
CogCalgary wrote:
09 Apr 2023 15:17
ljadw wrote:
09 Apr 2023 10:04
The situation in 1941 was the following :
The WM had failed to force the UK to give up and meanwhile US was arming to join the war .Against a British/US coalition Germany was powerless .
The only possibility was to prevent the US from entering the war by forcing Britain to give up .And this could, following Hitler only happen by the elimination of the USSR,as Germany could directly do nothing against the US.
Iraq was for Germany very secondary ,for Britain it was more important but still secondary as Britain's oil came mainly from the American continent .
Iraq was for Churchill only politically important :the tabloids would whine if Iraq was lost and would blame him .
Tripoli di Syria was not important for Britain as it was a French colony and as Britain did not use the Mediterranean to transport its oil .The Palmach commandos were used to prevent the Germans from using the terminus .
Tripoli di Syria was under Vichy French control.
As mentioned,wolfpacks were gorging on Allied shipping in the Atlantic at this exact time.
Bombing continued in England.
Rommel took control of North African forces and Egypt was the goal .
Nothing was certain.Churches were full.
The wolfpacks were attacking not the Allied shipping in 1941, but the British shipping :war between Germany and US started de jure on 11 December 1941 .Besides the results of the wolfpacks were unimportant,as they could not force Britain to surrender .
The results of the bomber attacks on Britain were the same :the LW failed .
Egypt was not Syria and the loss of Egypt or even of the ME would not force Britain to surrender .
The Heer failed, the LW failed, the KM failed .
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wolfpack_West

First entry is May 8,1941.
19 out of 23 U-boat commanders went on to receive the Knight'Cross.Most ships were British.Sure sounds successful.19 in May 1941 alone were sunk.
The number of ships that were sunk is not important, what is important is the number of ships that arrived in Britain and this was primarily depending on the number of ships that were sailing to Britain .
There was never a moment that Britain risked starvation because of the U Boats .
And, Britain was much less dependent on imports in WW2 than is generally claimed .Oil was an exception .
British dry-cargo imports were 41,9 million tons in 1940 and 25,1 million in 1944 .And still there was no starvation in Britain .
Why ?Because the domestic production was increased .
A good source is Erin Weir :
German Submarine Blockade,Overseas Imports and British Military Production in WW2 .

Sid Guttridge
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Posts: 10158
Joined: 12 Jun 2008 11:19

Re: The Grand Mufti of Jerusalem-- A role in the Holocaust?

Post by Sid Guttridge » 11 Apr 2023 10:01

Hi ljadw,

You are on a roll. I find no reason to take exception with your most recent posts. Must be a first! Normal hostilities will doubtless resume but let's just enjoy the moment.

Sid

CogCalgary
Member
Posts: 411
Joined: 04 Aug 2021 21:31
Location: Calgary

Re: The Grand Mufti of Jerusalem-- A role in the Holocaust?

Post by CogCalgary » 11 Apr 2023 13:48

ljadw wrote:
09 Apr 2023 20:16
CogCalgary wrote:
09 Apr 2023 19:40
ljadw wrote:
09 Apr 2023 17:13
CogCalgary wrote:
09 Apr 2023 15:17
ljadw wrote:
09 Apr 2023 10:04
The situation in 1941 was the following :
The WM had failed to force the UK to give up and meanwhile US was arming to join the war .Against a British/US coalition Germany was powerless .
The only possibility was to prevent the US from entering the war by forcing Britain to give up .And this could, following Hitler only happen by the elimination of the USSR,as Germany could directly do nothing against the US.
Iraq was for Germany very secondary ,for Britain it was more important but still secondary as Britain's oil came mainly from the American continent .
Iraq was for Churchill only politically important :the tabloids would whine if Iraq was lost and would blame him .
Tripoli di Syria was not important for Britain as it was a French colony and as Britain did not use the Mediterranean to transport its oil .The Palmach commandos were used to prevent the Germans from using the terminus .
Tripoli di Syria was under Vichy French control.
As mentioned,wolfpacks were gorging on Allied shipping in the Atlantic at this exact time.
Bombing continued in England.
Rommel took control of North African forces and Egypt was the goal .
Nothing was certain.Churches were full.
The wolfpacks were attacking not the Allied shipping in 1941, but the British shipping :war between Germany and US started de jure on 11 December 1941 .Besides the results of the wolfpacks were unimportant,as they could not force Britain to surrender .
The results of the bomber attacks on Britain were the same :the LW failed .
Egypt was not Syria and the loss of Egypt or even of the ME would not force Britain to surrender .
The Heer failed, the LW failed, the KM failed .
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wolfpack_West

First entry is May 8,1941.
19 out of 23 U-boat commanders went on to receive the Knight'Cross.Most ships were British.Sure sounds successful.19 in May 1941 alone were sunk.
The number of ships that were sunk is not important, what is important is the number of ships that arrived in Britain and this was primarily depending on the number of ships that were sailing to Britain .
There was never a moment that Britain risked starvation because of the U Boats .
And, Britain was much less dependent on imports in WW2 than is generally claimed .Oil was an exception .
British dry-cargo imports were 41,9 million tons in 1940 and 25,1 million in 1944 .And still there was no starvation in Britain .
Why ?Because the domestic production was increased .
A good source is Erin Weir :
German Submarine Blockade,Overseas Imports and British Military Production in WW2 .
https://www.bp.com/en/global/corporate/ ... r-two.html
BP says that production from Anglo-Iranian increased from 135,000 barrels at the end of 1941 to to 345,000 in 1945.
Doesn't sound like this source was not important.
Domestic production from Nottingham was relatively small,just large enough to get the country by.
The Italians began bombing oil installations in Haifa in 1940.
Kirkuk-Haifa oil pipeline.
Wiki entry says that this pipeline was considered strategically important by the British.Provided much of the fuel needed in the Med.
So I am not seeing how you considered this theater of trifling importance.
Last edited by CogCalgary on 11 Apr 2023 14:17, edited 1 time in total.

ljadw
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Posts: 15472
Joined: 13 Jul 2009 17:50

Re: The Grand Mufti of Jerusalem-- A role in the Holocaust?

Post by ljadw » 11 Apr 2023 14:16

345000 barrels is something as 40000 tons, while US production in 1940 was 180 million tons,and the German production (imports included ) was 6,5 million tons .40000 is 0,0002 percent of the US production in 1940 .
About domestic production : I did not talk about oil, but food and raw materials .

CogCalgary
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Posts: 411
Joined: 04 Aug 2021 21:31
Location: Calgary

Re: The Grand Mufti of Jerusalem-- A role in the Holocaust?

Post by CogCalgary » 11 Apr 2023 14:50

The Kirkuk-Haifa pipeline was operational between 1935-1948.The refinery at Abadan processed aviation fuel.
Oil supplies secured by the Americans would have to pass through Gibraltor.
Even after the war food supply in Britain was by no means plentiful.Rations were in effect for a few years.

gebhk
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Joined: 25 Feb 2013 20:23

Re: The Grand Mufti of Jerusalem-- A role in the Holocaust?

Post by gebhk » 11 Apr 2023 15:28

Even after the war food supply in Britain was by no means plentiful.Rations were in effect for a few years.
Rationing does not necessarily mean there is a shortage. It is also necessary to prevent artificial shortages created by hoarding when food supply is adequate but not-open-ended.

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