The Grand Mufti of Jerusalem-- A role in the Holocaust?

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BarKokhba
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Re: Grand Mufti of Jerusalem's role in the Holocaust

#91

Post by BarKokhba » 30 Mar 2017, 04:13

Lots of intellectual gymnastics here to "so-what" away the ties between the Mufti of Jerusalem and the Nazi hierarchy during the War. While it is clear that the Mufti did not instigate the Holocaust, join the Islamic SS squads in the Balkans on Jew-sweeps, or throw zyklon-b into the gas chambers, its clear that he was a supporter of the Nazi regime and its war/genocide aims. The telegram from Himmler is written testimony to that fact. Although the Mufti did not actively collaborate with the Nazi genocide in Europe, his speeches to the Islamic world in Arabic, his pamphlets, and his public stance were signals to his minions to encourage a war on the Jews in Arab countries, as evidenced by the pogroms in the Arab world during and after the War. The fact that he was welcomed by Hitler and carried on active anti-Jewish work throughout the Holocaust and after the War, has long been denied by Palestinians, and has been used as a proof by the State of Israel and Zionists as to the dread intentions of the Arabs/Islamists (Iran, ISIS) to this day.

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Sergey Romanov
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Re: Grand Mufti of Jerusalem's role in the Holocaust

#92

Post by Sergey Romanov » 31 Mar 2017, 07:13

BarKokhba wrote:used as a proof by the State of Israel and Zionists as to the dread intentions of the Arabs
One would think only racists would ascribe monolithic intentions to a whole huge ethnic group. Are you accusing the State of Israel and Zionists of racism?


pugsville
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Re: Grand Mufti of Jerusalem's role in the Holocaust

#93

Post by pugsville » 04 Apr 2017, 03:20

BarKokhba wrote:Lots of intellectual gymnastics here to "so-what" away the ties between the Mufti of Jerusalem and the Nazi hierarchy during the War. While it is clear that the Mufti did not instigate the Holocaust, join the Islamic SS squads in the Balkans on Jew-sweeps, or throw zyklon-b into the gas chambers, its clear that he was a supporter of the Nazi regime and its war/genocide aims. The telegram from Himmler is written testimony to that fact. Although the Mufti did not actively collaborate with the Nazi genocide in Europe, his speeches to the Islamic world in Arabic, his pamphlets, and his public stance were signals to his minions to encourage a war on the Jews in Arab countries, as evidenced by the pogroms in the Arab world during and after the War. The fact that he was welcomed by Hitler and carried on active anti-Jewish work throughout the Holocaust and after the War, has long been denied by Palestinians, and has been used as a proof by the State of Israel and Zionists as to the dread intentions of the Arabs/Islamists (Iran, ISIS) to this day.
That is the point of the entire thread, which is of course rubbish. He had no real role in the Holocaust. The Mufti was a nasty piece of work and total reprehensible. But lets not be confused about the purpose of this allegations ,, is tar Palestinians which responsibility for the holocaust, which is of course total and unmitigated piffle.

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Sergey Romanov
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Re: Grand Mufti of Jerusalem's role in the Holocaust

#94

Post by Sergey Romanov » 04 Apr 2017, 09:27

Of course had the Mufti played a role in the Holocaust that wouldn't have meant that Palestinians had any sort of a responsibility for it (collective responsibility of ethnic groups is a fascist, racist concept).

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Re: Grand Mufti of Jerusalem's role in the Holocaust

#95

Post by kiseli » 04 Apr 2017, 11:31

Sergey Romanov wrote:Of course had the Mufti played a role in the Holocaust that wouldn't have meant that Palestinians had any sort of a responsibility for it (collective responsibility of ethnic groups is a fascist, racist concept).

"Palestinians, Arabs, and the Holocaust"
Joseph Spoerl

www.bjpa.org/Publications/downloadFile.cfm?FileID=21956
http://www.bjpa.org/Publications/downlo ... leID=21956

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Sergey Romanov
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Re: Grand Mufti of Jerusalem's role in the Holocaust

#96

Post by Sergey Romanov » 04 Apr 2017, 20:04

From the article:
However, the claim that Palestinians and Arabs had nothing to do with the Holocaust is false.
A weaselly language like this is a part of the problem. Indeed, one could expect someone like Michael Mills state in response to a debunking of the myth of the "Jewish domination" of the USSR:
However, the claim that Jews had nothing to do with the Bolshevik mass murder is false.
And indeed, it is trivially true - just as like there were some Palestinian Nazi collaborators, there were some Jewish Bolshevik mass murderers. Of course the phrase is intentionally ambiguous because it leaves the feeling of "well, if that's not true then Palestinians as a group were responsible". That the article then proceeds to expose only certain Palestinian leaders, rather than "the Palestinians" as a whole, doesn't help the matters.

michael mills
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Re: Grand Mufti of Jerusalem's role in the Holocaust

#97

Post by michael mills » 05 Apr 2017, 03:45

just as like there were some Palestinian Nazi collaborators, there were some Jewish Bolshevik mass murderers.
This equation does not hold water.

There was only a handful of Palestinian Arabs who collaborated with Germany during the Second World War, and none of them held real positions of power, and none were members of the German repressive organs that perpetrated mass murder.

By contrast, Jews were significantly over-represented in the administration of Bolshevik Russia, including in the organs of repression, particularly in the first two decades of the Bolshevik regime. For example, in 1937 registered members of the officially recognised Soviet Jewish nationality constituted 30% of the officer corps of the NKVD in the Ukrainian SSR, about the same proportion as members of the Russian nationality, and not including any persons of Jewish extraction who hid their identity and were registered as members of other nationalities.

At one time the NKVD was headed by Genrikh Grigor'evich Iagoda, whose original name was Enokh Gershevich Ieguda (the Russian form of Yehuda). The head of labour deployment in the SLON was Naftali Frenkel, who was ultimately responsible for the deaths of large numbers of prisoners from malnutrition, particularly on the Baltic-White Sea Canal project. Frenkel was originally a prisoner at Solovki, and his mysterious rise to become a senior SLON official may well have been a case of Jewish ethnic solidarity, since Iagoda seems to have been instrumental in the process. Unlike Iagoda, Frenkel survived Stalin's purges.

Obviously, there were no Arab equivalents of Iagoda or Frenkel in the German SS, or of Kaganovich in the German Government. To be sure those men were individuals, but they played a far more significant role in the Soviet system than any Arab did in National Socialist Germany, and were also just the top level of a very significant Jewish involvement in the Soviet administration in the 1920s and early to mid-1930s.

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Sergey Romanov
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Re: Grand Mufti of Jerusalem's role in the Holocaust

#98

Post by Sergey Romanov » 05 Apr 2017, 20:10

There you go. So, as I said, don't go down that path.

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Skyderick
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Re: Grand Mufti of Jerusalem's role in the Holocaust

#99

Post by Skyderick » 06 Apr 2017, 03:12

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Sorry, I couldn't resize the image. You can adjust the size if you download the file.

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Skyderick
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Re: Grand Mufti of Jerusalem's role in the Holocaust

#100

Post by Skyderick » 05 May 2017, 11:34

The mufti corresponded vigorously with Nazi officials about Jewish emigration from Europe. In protest of the proposed migration to Palestine of 4,000 Bulgarian Jewish children accompanied by 500 adults, he called upon the Reich and Axis nations to "bring an end to international Jewry and to put this race under strong and total supervision to guard against its danger and remove its damage." He used similar words in his letter to the foreign minister of Bulgaria, suggesting that such status could be achieved by transferring those Jews to Poland. Other correspondences addressed the Jewish populations of Germany, Hungary, France, Italy and Romania. al-Husseini protested against a proposed exchange of Jewish refugees for captured German soldiers in North Africa. A letter to Ribbentrop in April 1942 called upon the Reich to "destroy the Jewish national home in Palestine." A pocket notebook entry from the same year mentions his proposal for the "purification" of Tripoli of its Jews and the capture of their property. These documents were found in two folders I've skimmed through so far (out of nine titled "Grand Mufti"), gathered as evidence for the Eichmann trial and forgotten in the National Archives. Himmler's telegram message recently published by the National Library stems from the same collection. In a 1944 diary entry, al-Husseini called Eichmann "the best among the friends of the Arabs."

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Re: Grand Mufti of Jerusalem's role in the Holocaust

#101

Post by michael mills » 05 May 2017, 13:51

So what, Skyderick. Does writing letters add up to a "role"?

Jewish propagandists bare constantly trying to link al-Husayni to the German extermination of the Jews, no matter how tenuously, as part of their effort to invalidate Palestinian Arab resistance to Jewish expansionism. But the reality is that he had no position of command during his stay in wartime Germany; his sole role was a subordinate one of encouraging Balkan Muslims to join Axis military forces.

Von Schadewald
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Re: Grand Mufti of Jerusalem's role in the Holocaust

#102

Post by Von Schadewald » 11 Jun 2017, 15:01

"In rediscovered telegram, Himmler offers Jerusalem’s mufti help against ‘Jewish intruders’"

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http://www.timesofisrael.com/in-redisco ... intruders/

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Last edited by Von Schadewald on 11 Jun 2017, 20:34, edited 1 time in total.

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Skyderick
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Re: Grand Mufti of Jerusalem's role in the Holocaust

#103

Post by Skyderick » 11 Jun 2017, 18:12

Here's a statement by SS-Hauptsturmführer Dieter Wisliceny regarding the Grand Mufti, dated 26.7.1946:
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And Steiner's statement, affirmed by Wisliceny with two corrections (Eichmann was not born in Palestine and the Mufti was not Himmler's "ständiger mitarbeiter") on 5.3.1946:
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michael mills
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Re: Grand Mufti of Jerusalem's role in the Holocaust

#104

Post by michael mills » 12 Jun 2017, 04:44

In rediscovered telegram, Himmler offers Jerusalem’s mufti help against ‘Jewish intruders’"
This telegram has already been posted on this site, on page 6. I refer you to my appropriately dismissive response immediately following.

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Re: Grand Mufti of Jerusalem's role in the Holocaust

#105

Post by michael mills » 12 Jun 2017, 04:51

Here's a statement by SS-Hauptsturmführer Dieter Wisliceny regarding the Grand Mufti, dated 26.7.1946:
What of it? Wisliceby made many statements under interrogation that have been discounted by historians as unreliable and self-serving attempts to exculpate himself.

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