1st Polish Armoured Division killing POWs?

Discussions on the Holocaust and 20th Century War Crimes. Note that Holocaust denial is not allowed. Hosted by David Thompson.
Post Reply
Piotr Kapuscinski
Host - Allied sections
Posts: 3724
Joined: 12 Jul 2006, 20:17
Location: Poland
Contact:

1st Polish Armoured Division killing POWs?

#1

Post by Piotr Kapuscinski » 18 Aug 2008, 01:54

I've heard that some Polish units which fought in the battle of Falaise - Chamboise - Argentan - so probably units from 1. Dywizja Pancerna (1st Polish Armoured Division) of general Maczek, murderred some German prisoners of war - but I don't know exactly how many, why and in what conditions.

I do not think that general Maczek himself was responsible for that.

After killing this certain numbers of POWs taken, still 5113 other POWs taken by Polish division left.

I also found information that during the Polish campaign 1939, in the battle of Seroczyn (1st Polish Legionary Infantry Division against Panzer-Division "Kempf" and other units):

"[...] There was a great embitterment, because both sides didn't take any prisoners. [...]" - German officer who participated in the battle wrote this.

Casualties in the battle of Seroczyn (12th of September) were:

German casualties of Panzer-Division "Kempf":

According to German source (relation of officer who participated in the battle) - more than 40 KIA, more than 120 WIA, ?? MIA

Polish casualties:

According to German source (relation of the same officer) - 300 KIA, ?? WIA, ?? MIA
According to Polish sources - 146 KIA, 40 WIA, ?? MIA

Big number of Polish KIA comparing to number of WIA is probably caused by the fact that the battle was finally won by Germans (they received strong armoured relief in the critical moment, and it forced the attacking Poles to withdraw) - and "both sides didn't take prisoners".

Piotr Kapuscinski
Host - Allied sections
Posts: 3724
Joined: 12 Jul 2006, 20:17
Location: Poland
Contact:

Re: 1st Polish Armoured Division killing POWs?

#2

Post by Piotr Kapuscinski » 19 Aug 2008, 21:50

I found some info about that event - article by Grzegorz Czwartosz:

http://www.niniwa2.cba.pl/czwartosz_zwyciezcow.htm

“[here some allied - mainly American - war crimes described]

[…]

And we?

Any of four main allied forces fighting in the West (the USA, Great Britain, Canada, Poland), did not judge or even completely described all of their war crimes commited on German citizens. For clarification still waits – for example – this what happened with group of 1200 German prisoners of war of Polish 1st Armoured Division near Chamboise. Lots of those people on pages of memories of Polish divisional commanders (gen. Franciszek Skibinski and gen. Wladislav Dec) are either pass over in silence or unclear.

However, American historian Stephen E. Ambrose describes it. If he is right, most probably soldiers of 1st Armoured Division were responsible for one of the biggest one-off allied war crime on European Theater.

In his book published in 1997 “Citizen Soldiers” (Polish publisher: “Obywatele w mundurach”, 2000), Ambrose cites relation of US Army captain Waters, who was to be the one whoes task was to receive 1500 prisoners of those taken near Falais from the Polish division. He claimed that he had received only 200. Polish captain who was escorting those prisoners [Does Ambrose give his surname ? – Domen121] was to declare, that rest of them was shoot, and for the last 200 they already didn’t have enough ammo.

Only general Franciszek Skibinski decided to write in his memories that:

“In a certain moment, for Poles question of prisoners got out of control”

But he mentions different time and place than captain Waters.

One’s can like Ambrose or not, but with his methods of work and verification of facts, experience and caution when it comes to relations of veterans, usually there are not many eagers to undermine effects of his works and to polemize with him.

Ambrose doesn’t comment or judge this event from history of the Polish 1st Armoured Divison, because his works present this kind of culture.

While learning history, one should remember, that not always its mask is black and white. Noone’s judging the victors – pity!”


I also met with other versions of these events.

According to these alternative versions:

1. The second version - not 200 - 300, but all 1500 prisoners were transfered to Americans - and Americans shoot 1200 of them.

2. There is also the third version of those events - it says, that Poles asked Americans what to do with those prisoners, because they had no conditions to keep them behind the frontline, and not enough soldiers to guard or escort them (fierce battle was still in progress, German forces were still making desperate attempts to break through the Polish blockade and escape from the pocket) – so Poles asked Americans for help with those prisoners – then Americans were to tell Poles, that:

A) "It’s not our business, we can’t help you."
B) "We can’t help you - get rid of them if you are not able to do anything else with them."

So we can see that total number of POWs captured by Polish 1st Armoured Division in the battle of Falaise - Chamboise - Argentan was most probably at least around 6650.

Are there any German accounts on those events?


User avatar
Marcus
Member
Posts: 33963
Joined: 08 Mar 2002, 23:35
Location: Europe
Contact:

Re: 1st Polish Armoured Division killing POWs?

#3

Post by Marcus » 05 Jan 2009, 15:36

The above two posts were split from Allied units Implicated in War Crimes to open for more discussions on these claims.

/Marcus

User avatar
Empiricist
Member
Posts: 443
Joined: 03 Jun 2021, 12:22
Location: European Union

Re: 1st Polish Armoured Division killing POWs?

#4

Post by Empiricist » 05 Jun 2021, 11:55

Falaise Gap, August 20, 1944

"Many of the Germans were willing to give up and by mid-morning Nash had to send B-1 and B-2 troops to Hill 117 to escort about hundred prisoners, including a considerable number of wounded, to the Regiment's makeshift cage. As he moved back with with rear deck full of German prisoners Lieutenant Jack Summers was hailed by Polish infantry heading in the opposite direction. The Poles were not known for being kind to prisoners, particularly if they examined a German's paybook and discovered that he had fought against their country in 1939. The infantry wanted to know why Jack was wasting time transporting prisoners and offered to take them off his hands. The offer was tempting and Jack was cogitating on it when a German sergeant standing directly on the deck behind his hatch said quietly in perfect English…

- I beg of you, do not give us to the Poles.

Somewhat startled, Jack declined the offer and went on his way.
"

Donald E. Graves
South Albertas. A Canadian Regiment At War
ISBN 1-896941-39-7
page No. 157

User avatar
wm
Member
Posts: 8753
Joined: 29 Dec 2006, 21:11
Location: Poland

Re: 1st Polish Armoured Division killing POWs?

#5

Post by wm » 06 Jun 2021, 11:26

That's no evidence, it's mere hearsay.

gebhk
Member
Posts: 2623
Joined: 25 Feb 2013, 21:23

Re: 1st Polish Armoured Division killing POWs?

#6

Post by gebhk » 06 Jun 2021, 14:39

Gosh this is a hoary old chestnut (ca 20 years old, in fact)!

Pardon me if I don't remember the details exactly after nearly 20 years, but the authors of this conspiracy theory would have us believe that in the space of a few hours, two dozen or so men, killed variously between a thousand and 15 hundred prisoners in an open field and buried them so deep that to this day the bodies have not been found in a relatively densely populated part of the country. Furthermore, they let a few hundred more live who, for reasons beyond comprehension, apparently took this secret with them to the grave.

Not only were there no bodies but there was not a shred of evidence - even circumstantial evidence, that this crime occurred. I vaguely recall that the author and his publishers wound their neck in when threatened with legal proceedings by relatives of the individuals accused. If some actual evidence has since emerged, then it would be worth pursuing this further, otherwise not worth the time.

Post Reply

Return to “Holocaust & 20th Century War Crimes”