War Crimes Trials - Righteous or Bogus Victors' Justice?

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Dan
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Post by Dan » 20 Jan 2003 22:22

I'm assuming that your addition of 1939 to the hypos is for purposes of bringing Poland into the picture, but I may have misunderstood. Was there something that happened in the Baltics republics in 1939 that I've overlooked?
No, to bring in the Baltics. For instance, I am a Calvinist, and for centuries Lithuania's nobility has been highly Calvinistic. That is, untill the Soviets invaded and killed of them. I'm sure large landowners and factory owners have a similar beef.

SO please answer with that in mind, along with whether the same standards should apply to all, and if so, why they aren't.

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Scott Smith
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Scenario #2

Post by Scott Smith » 20 Jan 2003 22:24

David Thompson wrote:Here's another one (hypo #2):

Country A is ruled by a dictator between 1933 and 1945. Country A's dictator resorts to measures which are illegal under the formal legal structure of country A. After the dictatorship is overthrown, the new rulers of Country A put the former officials of the dictatorship on trial for violation of the laws of Country A.

Righteous prosecution or bogus "victor's justice?"
Although while the dictator is in power he is the law, this has not remained the case and his opponents are the new law. It is easy therefore to put him on trial for breaking existing law (not ex post facto law) while he was in power, unless he can show formal legal rights to do so apart from his own dictatorship. It likely would not be hard for him to find precedents where Heads of State bent the law to exercise the duties of their office. For example, the Weimar government was known for its "rule by emergency decree." Furthermore, if it is held that the people are ultimately sovereign rather than the ruler, even a dictator, then secret orders would have even less basis for justification. Reducing winner-take-all political contests are why constitutional laws were created in the first place. All of this applies to the original nation and its jurisdiction. Foreign victors would have no right to "try" sovereigns of foreign countries. They may do so and execute sentence, but they have no "legal right" to do so other than they possess the prisoner.
:)

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Scott Smith
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#3

Post by Scott Smith » 20 Jan 2003 22:29

David Thompson wrote:Hypo #3: Country A, a dictatorship, annexes independent country B in 1940 and subjects Country B to the laws of Country A. The officials of Country A don't obey their own laws, or those of the former Country B, and commit various actions which are illegal under both the laws of Country A and the laws of former Country B. In 1990 Country B becomes independent again.

Country B wants to prosecute the former officials from Country A for violations of the laws of Country A during the period Country B was annexed.

Righteous prosecution or bogus victor's justice?
They could be tried in either country under existing laws depending on who had them. In this case country A's laws extend into the occupied Country B for the purposes of its own jurisdiction, so if their officials violated existing laws they could claim jurisdiction to try the parties if they still had the prisoners. If Country B wanted to try to perpetrators it could do so if it had them, but if Country A refused to extradite them then no-soap. Probably Country A would try them first and if found guilty extradite them to Country B, assuming it was sympathetic to its neighbor.
:)
Last edited by Scott Smith on 20 Jan 2003 23:49, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by David Thompson » 20 Jan 2003 22:38

Dan -- It was always my understanding that the Soviet Union annexed the Baltic republics in 1940, which is why I used that date. As I recall, the Soviet Union moved troops into those countries on 15-16 Jun 1940, and declared that they had been annexed c. 21 Jul 1940. So if you wanted hypos 3-5 to apply to the Baltic republics, that's what I had in mind as well.

You asked about whether the same standards should apply to all. My answer is yes. If you're going to have a standard at all, it should be applied equally. Criticism about political hypocrisy here is well-taken, IMHO. If there's something wrong with the standard, countries should say so, admit they were wrong, and then try to make the standard fair.

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Post by David Thompson » 20 Jan 2003 22:43

Scott -- Thanks for the thoughtful response, which was also a pleasant surprise. I'm going to take a break to read your answers and think about them, and then I'll be back.

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#4

Post by Scott Smith » 20 Jan 2003 23:15

David Thompson wrote:Hypo #4: Same facts as hypo 3 (Country A, a dictatorship, annexes independent country B in 1940 and subjects Country B to the laws of Country A. The officials of Country A don't obey their own laws, or those of the former Country B, and commit various actions which are illegal under both the laws of Country A and the laws of former Country B. In 1990 Country B becomes independent again.)

Country B wants to prosecute the former officials from Country A for violations of international law in effect during 1940-1990.

Righteous prosecution or bogus victor's justice?
It all depends on if Country A is willing to extradite them (see above.)

This is similar with what should have happened with the Demjanjuk trial except that the only U.S. laws that Demjanjuk broke were lying to Immigration about his membership in the SS. He had been a good American citizen since that time.

What happend was the witchhunters in the OSI proved that Demjanjuk lied to Immigration (not that he had committed crimes in Poland or that he was this Ivan the Terrible character) and he was deported (not extradited) to Israel (which had a specious claim to jurisdiction at best) to be tried as "Ivan the Terrible" for gassing 875 thousand Jews with diesel exhaust at Treblinka on evidence manufactured by the Soviets.

Long-story-short, Israel's attempt at The Eichmann Show Part Deux bombed because the Soviet Union supplying the phony evidence broke-up and Americans were criticizing the OSI's outrageous handling of the case. Columnist and perennial Presidential candidate Pat Buchanan even publicly questioned the efficacy of diesel-murder.
:)

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#5

Post by Scott Smith » 20 Jan 2003 23:43

David Thompson wrote:Hypo #5: Same facts as hypo 3 (Country A, a dictatorship, annexes independent country B in 1940 and subjects Country B to the laws of Country A. The officials of Country A don't obey their own laws, or those of the former Country B, and commit various actions which are illegal under both the laws of Country A and the laws of former Country B. In 1990 Country B becomes independent again.)

Country B does not recognize its 1940-1990 annexation as legitimate. Country B wants to prosecute the former officials from Country A for violations of the laws of Country B which were in effect at the time Country B was annexed in 1940.

Righteous prosecution or bogus victor's justice?
I think this is basically the same situation as above and depends on Country B actually possessing the accused for trial.

If Country A cannot effectively protest (for whatever reason, say defeat) that its officials were not in violation of their own laws during the occupation (or concedes this for political reasons), then Country B will simply assert that its previous (or invented) laws were violated by the occupiers (whether they were or not) and thus these become valid.

It may be bogus extraditing citizens to foreign countries to be tried for political reasons, as happened with the Demjanjuk case. Neutral courts would be more impartial, but it would also depend on a nation willingly extraditing its citizen, and this should only happen if the accused were convicted of a usual crime in a local court, with the verdict binding only on a recommendation for extradition to competent jurisdiction. Treaty agreements on extraditions might vary, but generally nations should not extradite their citizens for political trials, particularly if their own laws were not violated.
:)

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Scott Smith
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Another Scenario

Post by Scott Smith » 21 Jan 2003 00:21

Let's say that Countries A, B, C, and D defeated Country E and wanted to place its soldiers and officials on trial for violating existing laws. If Country E was a rump-State, the only impartial way to do this would be to convene a court comprised of neutral countries F, G, H, and I (of equal international standing, more or less) in which case they would have to use standards of conduct applicable in theory also to the behavior of the victorious Countries A, B, C, and D.

Thus the Defense (hosted by neutrals and not by vulnerable citizens of rump-Country E at the pleasure of the Victors) would certainly use tu quoque arguments where appropriate.

Of course, the neutral court could not charge citizens of the victorious sovereign countries A, B, C, and D, however, because they have their own competent jurisdictions.

And the neutral courts could not generate ex post facto laws or (in theory) political accusations, as the Victors would be wont.

Most of the Nuremberg trials were not about Warcrimes or crimes against existing laws, but about political accusations such as Aggressive War, Conspiracy Against Peace, and Crimes Against Humanity (whatever that means).

Basically, Nuremberg was a propaganda fraud asserted by the force of the Victors.

What could have been done--though it would not have satisfied the true objective of Allied propaganda--would have been to convene a neutral court representing nations such as Sweden, Switzerland, Turkey, and Spain, and the victorious Allies could present their evidence of the violation of existing laws (i.e., crimes of war and not political-crimes) by a rump-State's citizens and soldiers in Allied custody.

Of course, Sovereigns like Hitler and Göring could hardly be accused of the political-crimes tossed at Nuremberg, and Allied soldiers and officials would be publicly humiliated (by the Defense) for their own conduct of warcrimes. And that just wouldn't serve the interests of Allied propaganda, which needed to discredit the German military and political leaders to better cow the German people--who would resist a blanket War-Guilt claim, as with Versailles.

A show-trial was also needed to justify the Allied Peace and for catharsis for both the Germans and the Allied public for the end of a long war with much deprivation and suffering on both sides. It had to appear like JUSTICE, and the best legal hacks of the Anglo-Saxon nations were therefore employed (in spite of Soviet participation in the process).

That's why Churchill's idea to convene mock trials was so brilliant over Stalin's equally-valid exemplary retribution, which would have undoubtedly created martyrs.

However, Nuremberg set Justice back to the Middle Ages by employing it in Soviet-style for political purposes.
:)

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Post by Dan » 21 Jan 2003 00:52

David, you're right about the dates. I was thinking about it's relation to the Winter War.

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Post by David Thompson » 21 Jan 2003 01:13

Dan -- I think hypos #3 and 4 are righteous. I'm not so sure about #5.

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Post by Dan » 21 Jan 2003 01:26

Hypo #5: Same facts as hypo 3 (Country A, a dictatorship, annexes independent country B in 1940 and subjects Country B to the laws of Country A. The officials of Country A don't obey their own laws, or those of the former Country B, and commit various actions which are illegal under both the laws of Country A and the laws of former Country B. In 1990 Country B becomes independent again.)

Country B does not recognize its 1940-1990 annexation as legitimate. Country B wants to prosecute the former officials from Country A for violations of the laws of Country B which were in effect at the time Country B was annexed in 1940.



In 1940 the USSR invades Lithuania, and kills off most of the Calvinists and many others arbitrarity, without regard to any publically posted law. Lithuania regains independence after having been brutilized for decades. Lithuania wants to punish people lording it over her, and doesn't concede the right-by-conquest of the USSR. Lithuania chooses to try those convicted of atrocities by pre 1940 Lithuanian law.

Why would this be unfair, and 3 and 4 be fair?

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Post by Scott Smith » 21 Jan 2003 01:59

Dan wrote:
David Thompson wrote:Hypo #5: Same facts as hypo 3 (Country A, a dictatorship, annexes independent country B in 1940 and subjects Country B to the laws of Country A. The officials of Country A don't obey their own laws, or those of the former Country B, and commit various actions which are illegal under both the laws of Country A and the laws of former Country B. In 1990 Country B becomes independent again.)

Country B does not recognize its 1940-1990 annexation as legitimate. Country B wants to prosecute the former officials from Country A for violations of the laws of Country B which were in effect at the time Country B was annexed in 1940.
In 1940 the USSR invades Lithuania, and kills off most of the Calvinists and many others arbitrarity, without regard to any publically posted law. Lithuania regains independence after having been brutilized for decades. Lithuania wants to punish people lording it over her, and doesn't concede the right-by-conquest of the USSR. Lithuania chooses to try those convicted of atrocities by pre 1940 Lithuanian law.

Why would this be unfair, and 3 and 4 be fair?
Assuming that Lithuania had possession of the accused persons it would be fair to try them under its own laws (pre-invasion). Although a lot of time has passed, the burden-of-proof is upon the accusers anyway. The accused are not citizens of a rump-State so presumably they could get adequate legal support in their defense from both their own country and (since much time has passed since the war) Lithuania as well.

The problem is that Lithuania may have no basis to demand an extradition because these matters are based on international agreements (as is all International Law). If the accused were "extradited" for political reasons, as was the case with Demjanjuk, then it would not be fair.
:)

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Post by David Thompson » 21 Jan 2003 02:00

Dan -- I don't know that the hypo #5 situation is unfair. I'm just not sure about it. The reason is that the officials would know that their acts were criminal under hypos #3 and #4, but might think that the annexation had extinguished the the laws of Country B in hypo #5, so that they weren't bound by them. It's a spinoff of the Anglo-Saxon tradition that for there to be a crime, there must be a union of act and intent.

In some of the Netherlands war crimes trials in the late 40's, some defendants were acquitted of executing resistance members because they had a good faith belief belief that the victims had been put on trial, convicted and sentenced to death in a regular and lawful proceeding conducted by a legal court. (The defendants had been scrupulous enough to ask for assurances from their superiors.)

Shortly, I am going to post a thread entitled "The Ghost of Tomoyuki Yamashita," which I think describes the extreme outer limits of any proceedings under Anglo-Saxon principles involving personal liability for crime. My personal opinion on that case is, while Yamashita might have righteously been found guilty of war crimes and executed under different circumstances, this trial was not righteous. It makes the Zyklon-B trial look like a pattern of propriety (I remember our earlier discussion of Karl Weinbacher) I'm calling the thread "The Ghost of Tomoyuki Yamashita" because the case has haunted war crimes proceedings ever since.

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Post by Dan » 21 Jan 2003 02:40

Thanks for that tidbit about AngloSaxon law!

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Post by tonyh » 21 Jan 2003 11:05

Knowing what I know about the Nuremburg trials, which is admittedly far smaller than some here, I can only called it victors justice. The enemy nations of the defeated should NOT have been in the position of law. Neutral countries should have been given the task of judgement. Also ex post facto law most definitely should not have been allowed to enter into the situation. And Russia being allowed to have a say in a "warcrimes" trial is laughable at best.

The trials should have been held, but as they stand they are a mockery. My 2 cents as it were.

Tony

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