Question with a photo

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Ebusitanus
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Question with a photo

Post by Ebusitanus » 15 Apr 2002 21:49

Hi all,
I was looking for that thread we had running a good while ago around this photo and the idea that it might be a fake/out of context.
Has anybody a link to that page that spoke in detail about it?

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Davey Boy
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Post by Davey Boy » 16 Apr 2002 16:34

Dunno what link you're talking about. But I do remember seeing this very picture on a website not long ago. And the caption said that the woman here was a Jew on the eastern front somewhere, walking towards a ditch because she was about to get shot. The ditch in question, the caption went on to say, was dug by Jews who were themselves going to be shot. The man with the rifle is, I believe, a member of the much maligned Einsatzgruppen.

Now excuse me, I'm going back to The Sun web page to look at some more Page 3 girls...these photos of executions and murders are putting me in a bad mood...

BTW, are you Spanish or German? I think you once said that your old man was in the Wehrmacht, right?

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Snafu
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Post by Snafu » 17 Apr 2002 23:12

Here it is:

http://www.codoh.com/daspiktur.html

Regards,
Snafu

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Roberto
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Post by Roberto » 17 Apr 2002 23:19

Snafu wrote:Here it is:

http://www.codoh.com/daspiktur.html

Regards,
Snafu
Interesting. Also got something from a serious source? For a Nazi swine like Mark Weber, everything that doesn't fit into his ideological bubble is necessarily "cropped", "forged" or whatever, you know. And my old friend "David Thomas" doesn't inspire much confidence either. I wonder what the punks say to documents like this one:
Operational Situation Report USSR No. 128






The Chief of the Security Police and Security Service
Berlin,
November 2, 1941

50 copies
----------------
[50th copy]

(see distribution list)


OPERATIONAL SITUATION REPORT USSR No. 128


Einsatzgruppe C
Location: Kiev
...............

Execution activities
As to purely execution matters, approximately 80,000 person have been liquidated by now by the Kommandos of the Einsatzgruppe.

Among these are approximately 8,000 person convicted after investigation of anti-German or Bolshevist activities.

The remainder was liquidated in retaliatory actions.

Several retaliatory measures were carried out as large-scale actions. The largest of these actions took place immediately after the occupation of Kiev. It was carried out exclusively against Jews and their entire families.

The difficulties resulting from such a large-scale action, in particular concerning the round-up, were overcome in Kiev by requesting the Jewish population to assemble, using wall posters. Although at first only the participation of 5-6000 Jews had been expected, more than 30,000 Jews arrived who, until the moment of their execution, still believed in their resettlement, thanks to extremely clever organization [propaganda].

Even though approximately 75,000 Jews have been liquidated in this manner, it is evident at this time that this cannot be the best solution of the Jewish problem. Although we succeeded, particularly in smaller towns and villages, in bringing about a complete liquidation of the Jewish problem, nevertheless, again and again it has been observed in the larger cities that after such an action, all Jews have indeed been eradicated. But, when after a certain period of time a Kommando returns, the number of Jews still found in the city always surpasses considerably the number of executed Jews.
Source of quote:

http://www.pgonline.com/electriczen/osr128.html

I would also be curious about their frantic efforts to explain this one away:

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Berenbaum, Michael. The World Must Know. ISBN 0-316-09135-9. Page 96.
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi/ftp.py?or ... /eg-07.ref

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Scott Smith
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GREUELPROPAGANDA...

Post by Scott Smith » 18 Apr 2002 01:05

Furiously backpedalling when his precious atrocity photo is shown to have been cropped, Medorjurgen shows us a mass-grave. I guess mass-graves cannot occur in wartime without a Genocidal massacre.
8O

NS-Verbrechen, a Moral Certainty, you just gotta Believe...
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Roberto
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Re: GREUELPROPAGANDA...

Post by Roberto » 18 Apr 2002 09:14

Scott Smith wrote:Furiously backpedalling when his precious atrocity photo is shown to have been cropped
The Reverend's staple bullshit. First thing, I don't remember ever having shown or referred to the photograph in question. Second, what freaks like Weber and Thomas consider to have been "cropped" because it doesn't fit into their ideological bubble is not necessarily "cropped".
, Medorjurgen shows us a mass-grave. I guess mass-graves cannot occur in wartime without a Genocidal massacre.
Mass graves full of naked women lying on top of each other, Reverend? Let's see a legitimate wartime action that produced such a harvest, preferably one in Khmelnitski Proskurov, Ukraine, where the picture was taken in January 1943.
NS-Verbrechen, a Moral Certainty, you just gotta Believe...
National Socialist crimes, a proven fact that can be seen by merely following the evidence where it leads. "Those crimes never happened", a Moral Certainty that can be upheld only by a true Keeper of the Faith.
Keep the Faith fellow revisionists. The Nazis and the SS were the good guys--but the anti-Nazis and the anti-revisionists dare not admit it for fear of losing their fabulous, ill gotten gains from the war.”
“Hoaxbuster” Friedrich Paul Berg on the Codoh discussion forum.
http://www.codoh.org/dcforum/DCForumID9/143.html#10

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Scott Smith
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PRECIOUS ATROCITIES...

Post by Scott Smith » 18 Apr 2002 09:36

Roberto wrote:Mass graves full of naked women lying on top of each other, Reverend?
Well, naked women would certainly satisfy more prurient interests, the fodder of Greuelpropaganda. Why no clothes? Probably because the clothes of the dead are salvaged in wartime. But this to you is proof of murder.
Roberto wrote:
Scott wrote:NS-Verbrechen, a Moral Certainty, you just gotta Believe...
National Socialist crimes, a proven fact that can be seen by merely following the evidence where it leads. "Those crimes never happened", a Moral Certainty that can be upheld only by a true Keeper of the Faith.
Each claim should be taken on a case-by-case basis. You cannot make sweeping statements about NS-Verbrechen any more than you can rationally do so about any other criminality. To argue otherwise is simply totalitarian-liberalism--or theology, Mr. True Believer.
:aliengray

Gwynn Compton
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Post by Gwynn Compton » 18 Apr 2002 09:42

medorjurgen,

I suggest you refrain from critisising other members with the language you displayed in your previous post. I hear it doesn't go down terribly well with Marcus, and I don't approve of it either. There is certainly no need for such profanity in a forum such as this.

If you have a valid point to make, then I suggest you make it in a constructive and non offensive way. Needless swearing and unbacked critisism will get you nowhere, regardless of what ever it is you are disagreeing with.

Gwynn

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Roberto
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Post by Roberto » 18 Apr 2002 10:37

Well, naked women would certainly satisfy more prurient interests, the fodder of Greuelpropaganda. Why no clothes? Probably because the clothes of the dead are salvaged in wartime. But this to you is proof of murder.
Together with other evidence – namely the Operational Situation Reports of the Einsatzgruppen it is. You didn’t answer my question, Reverend:

Mass graves full of naked women lying on top of each other, Reverend? Let's see a legitimate wartime action that produced such a harvest, preferably one in Khmelnitski Proskurov, Ukraine, where the picture was taken in January 1943.

As you brought it up, I would now also like to see some evidence to war victims being stripped before mass burial because “the clothes of the dead are salvaged in wartime”
Roberto wrote:
Scott wrote:
NS-Verbrechen, a Moral Certainty, you just gotta Believe...

National Socialist crimes, a proven fact that can be seen by merely following the evidence where it leads. "Those crimes never happened", a Moral Certainty that can be upheld only by a true Keeper of the Faith.


Each claim should be taken on a case-by-case basis. You cannot make sweeping statements about NS-Verbrechen any more than you can rationally do so about any other criminality.
How clever you are, Reverend. Has it occurred to you that I might be referring to those particular crimes that have been proven beyond reasonable doubt by criminal investigation and historical research.
To argue otherwise is simply totalitarian-liberalism--or theology,
“Totalitarian liberalism” is the Reverend’s brainchild, and “theology” is the “Revisionist” Faith he adheres to.
Mr. True Believer.
Given that the only True Believers around here are the Reverend and his peers, these monologues sure got me worried about the Reverend’s sanity.

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Roberto
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Post by Roberto » 18 Apr 2002 10:48

Gwynn,

I appreciate your constructive criticism, but if you had read my posts more attentively you would have realized that I don't engage in "needless swearing".

Thomas and Weber are not members of this forum. The former is the moderator, or one of the moderators, of the discussion forum (if such it can be called) of the "Committee for Open Debate on the Holocaust", an organization dedicated to Holocaust denial. I suggest you make yourself acquainted with these gentlemen:

http://www.codoh.com/

http://www.codoh.com/bbs/

Weber is the director of the "Journal of Historical Review", another "Revisionist" propaganda pamphlet:

http://www.ihr.org/jhr/jhrindex.html

Weber's connections to the neo-Nazi scene are documented. I suggest you make yourself acquaited with this character on hand of the information provided under this link:

http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi/people/w/ ... weber.mark

As to Reverend Smith, he has been part of my daily entertainment for about one and a half years now. He earned this sobriquet due to the fact that his repetitive stance of "Revisionist" propaganda strongly reminds me of a preacher's Sunday sermons.

Cheers,

Roberto

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Scott Smith
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SOBRIQUET...

Post by Scott Smith » 18 Apr 2002 11:09

Roberto wrote:How clever you are, Reverend. Has it occurred to you that I might be referring to those particular crimes that have been proven beyond reasonable doubt by criminal investigation and historical research.
Oh, you mean in postwar Show-Trials held by the Victors, or trials held in the Soviet Union against German soldiers such as those from the 1st SS Panzer Korps at Kharkov, said to have used Saurer diesel vans to gas people with...

As far as salvaging wartime clothes when production shifts to military needs, you have a lot to learn. What else are the people going to wear, especially in occupied countries? Maybe they stripped the bodies naked for fun. It may come as a shock to you but civilians die in wartime due to combat actions, disease and deprivation.

Even in Nazi Germany.
:aliengray

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Hans
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Re: SOBRIQUET...

Post by Hans » 18 Apr 2002 11:49

Scott Smith wrote:
Roberto wrote:How clever you are, Reverend. Has it occurred to you that I might be referring to those particular crimes that have been proven beyond reasonable doubt by criminal investigation and historical research.
Oh, you mean in postwar Show-Trials held by the Victors, or trials held in the Soviet Union against German soldiers such as those from the 1st SS Panzer Korps at Kharkov, said to have used Saurer diesel vans to gas people with...
You should thank the Soviets for their show-trial in Kharkov, Scott. Imagine if you couldn't use it for your own show and propaganda. It would be much more difficult for you to deny and ignore the serious trials in West-Germany and the research of western european historians, and at the end of the day, German war crimes.
Last edited by Hans on 18 Apr 2002 11:52, edited 1 time in total.

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Roberto
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Post by Roberto » 18 Apr 2002 11:50

Oh, you mean in postwar Show-Trials held by the Victors, or trials held in the Soviet Union against German soldiers such as those from the 1st SS Panzer Korps at Kharkov, said to have used Saurer diesel vans to gas people with...
No, Reverend, I mean the remarkably fair war crimes trials held by the victorious Allies and the subsequent murder trials before independent West German courts. As to the Soviet war crimes trials, they don’t seem to have been all that bad either, judging by the quotes that the Reverend kindly provided. The statement that the accused had been soldiers of the 1st SS Panzer Korps is a lie that the Reverend had better not repeated:

Kogon/Langbein/Rückerl et al, Nationalsozialistische Massentötungen durch Giftgas, Pages 94/95
Nach der Befreiung Charkows gelang es den Sowjetbehörden, einige der für die Morde Verantwortlichen festzunehmen; 1943 began ein öffentliches Gerichtsverfahren in Charkow. Am 19 Dezember verteilte die Presseabteilung der Auswärtigen Amtes eine Nachricht von Reuter aus Moskau, in der über den Prozeß berichtet wurde. Drei Deutsche, darunger der stellvertretende Kommandeur der Gestapo Charkow, Hans Rietz, waren darin namentlich erwähnt:

“Die Anklage, die gegen die drei Deutschen vorlag, war die, daß sie während der zeitweiligen deutschen Besetzung der Stadt Charkow in diesem Jahr sich an der brutalen Massenvernichtung friedfertiger sowjetischer Bürger mittels Gaswagen und anderer Methoden beteiligten.” (Archiv des Auswärtigen Amtes Signatur K-206638).
My translation:
After the liberation of Kharkov the Soviet authorities managed to detain some of those responsible for the murders; in 1943 a public trial began Kharkov. On 19 December the press department of the diplomatic service distributed a communication by Reuter from Moscow with a report about the trial. Three Germans, one of them the deputy commander of the Kharkov Gestapo, Hans Rietz, were mentioned by their names therein:

“The accusation against the three Germans was that during the temporary occupation of the city of Kharkov this year they had taken part in the brutal mass extermination of peaceful Soviet citizens by means of gas vans and other methods” (Archive of the Diplomatic Service Signature K-206638).
Emphasis is mine.
As far as salvaging wartime clothes when production shifts to military needs, you have a lot to learn. What else are the people going to wear, especially in occupied countries? Maybe they stripped the bodies naked for fun.
Cut out the hollow platitudes, buddy, and let’s see some factual examples. Evidence please, not bullshit.
It may come as a shock to you but civilians die in wartime due to combat actions, disease and deprivation.
And then they are all stripped naked and thrown into a mass grave as shown in the picture, aren’t they? If the photograph had been taken in Leningrad during the German siege and the people in the mass graves looked emaciated as becomes victims of starvation, my only objection to Smith’s contentions would be that I don’t consider the victims of the Leningrad siege to have been unavoidable victims of wartime circumstances either. The problem here, however, is that the victims don’t look emaciated, that the picture was taken in Khmelnitski Proskurov, Ukraine, in January 1943 and that it is strikingly reminiscent of the eyewitness descriptions of mass executions of Jews throughout the occupied territories of the Soviet Union and of documentary evidence such as the “Operational Situation Reports” of the Einsatzgruppen, some of which are translated online under the link

http://www.pgonline.com/electriczen/einsatz.html

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Scott Smith
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BUNDESTRIALS

Post by Scott Smith » 18 Apr 2002 12:20

Hans wrote:You should thank the Soviets for their show-trial in Kharkov, Scott. Imagine if you couldn't use it for your own show and propaganda. It would be much more difficult for you to deny and ignore the serious trials in West-Germany and the research of western european historians, and at the end of the day, German war crimes.
I am thankful, in an abstract sense; it is a convergence-of-evidence, where red is black and yellow white, where Greuelpropagandists like Kogon-Langbein-Rückerl decide which is right. And which is an illusion.

A world where diesel engines gas people and victims have wings.

And heresy is punished.
:aliengray

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Roberto
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Post by Roberto » 18 Apr 2002 12:45

I am thankful, in an abstract sense; it is a convergence-of-evidence, where red is black and yellow white,
Apart from the fact that the Soviet trials don’t seem to have been all that bad, I hope the Reverend is not trying to tell us that West German courts relied on the findings of Soviet courts and did not do their own independent investigation and assessment of evidence. He’d have damn little to show for such contention.
where Greuelpropagandists like Kogon-Langbein-Rückerl decide which is right.
Why “Greuelpropagandists”, Reverend? Because their findings are not supported by conclusive evidence, or just because they don’t fit into your ideological bubble?
And which is an illusion.
Correction: Which is what the Reverend would like to see as an illusion to keep his own world of illusions intact.
A world where diesel engines gas people …


… is very probably the real world, at least the Reverend hasn’t yet managed to demonstrate otherwise. And even if he had, this would only mean that the engines in question were gasoline engines. Much a do about nothing.
And heresy is punished.
No, Reverend, hate speech is. The difference to heresy being that heresy challenged bullshit on the basis of facts whereas hate speech challenges facts on the basis of bullshit.

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