Jasenovac

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vszulc
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Jasenovac

Post by vszulc » 24 Apr 2009 02:49

[Split from Presence of Nazi/NDH symbolism in Croatian pop culture]

Junak1929 wrote: As for numbers regarding Jasenovac ... :roll: :lol: First it's 700 thousand, then its 500, then its 60, then is 180 who's going to keep up with this? No one has yet to provide any legitimate research - and the Jasenovac Research Institute has suddenly disappeared from the internet due to Croatians filing complaints and lawsuits about their PROVEN FAKE "victims" list - My own grandfather was on their "victims" list, the guy never game within 500 km of Jasenovac at any point in his life and died in the 80s.


Junak1929 wrote:I've been reviewing the demographics of the area for about 8 years now, I still can't come to any concrete conclusions or numbers, maybe you could enlighten us ?


Considering the fact, that you claim that Jasenovac was an innocent little labor camp, I suspect you haven't been looking very hard.

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Junak1929
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Re: Jasenovac

Post by Junak1929 » 24 Apr 2009 20:12

vszulc wrote:
Junak1929 wrote:I've been reviewing the demographics of the area for about 8 years now, I still can't come to any concrete conclusions or numbers, maybe you could enlighten us ?


Considering the fact, that you claim that Jasenovac was an innocent little labor camp, I suspect you haven't been looking very hard.


Jasenovac was a labor camp, and no where did I say it was innocent. I am sure of individuals who by their own means committed crimes which are a shame on Croatia's history. However, camp policy and the facilities itself do not equate what the last 60 years of communist propaganda have made the place out to be. Somehow the victim list has gone missing after law suits were filed against the reasearch institute, can you tell me why they had to lie ?

grom1941
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Re: Jasenovac

Post by grom1941 » 05 May 2009 00:18

The serbs and their sympathizers claim that over 1 million of them were killed by Croats of NDH but also claim that 500,000 were displaced as a result of operation storm.
That must make them the greatest breeders in the history of the world, considering there was no mass migration of serbs to Croatia post ww2!

The numbers don't stack up.

Rob - wssob2
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Re: Jasenovac

Post by Rob - wssob2 » 05 May 2009 01:42

Here are a few of the existing AHF threads that mention the Jasenovac camp:

Croatian Ustashi victims pictures
viewtopic.php?f=6&t=19163

Jasenovac
viewtopic.php?f=6&t=4372&hilit=+Jasenovac

Did any of Germany's allies commit warcrimes?
viewtopic.php?f=6&t=27113&hilit=+Jasenovac

Concentration camps during the Independent State Of Croatia
viewtopic.php?f=6&t=50858&hilit=+Jasenovac

Death Toll in WWII Yugoslavia
viewtopic.php?f=6&t=55457&hilit=+Jasenovac

Jasenovac.org
viewtopic.php?f=6&t=77629&hilit=+Jasenovac

The Vatican's Dark Secret
viewtopic.php?f=6&t=11059&hilit=+Jasenovac

Here are some additional URLs on the camp:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jasenovac_ ... ation_camp

http://www.ushmm.org/museum/exhibit/online/jasenovac/

http://www.ushmm.org/wlc/article.php?ModuleId=10005449

http://www.holocaustresearchproject.org ... novac.html

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jso ... novac.html

http://www.shoaheducation.com/camps/jasenovac.html



I am sure of individuals who by their own means committed crimes which are a shame on Croatia's history.


That's right. But individuals like Father Miloslav Filipovic-Majstorovic were members of the NDH camp staff and committed their crimes as part of the NDH's policy of genocide.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miroslav_Filipovi%C4%87

grom1941
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Re: Jasenovac

Post by grom1941 » 05 May 2009 03:44

wikipedia, jasenovac.org, forged communist propaganda photos? lets take that as gospel shall we.

How were there 500,000 serbs in the krajina region of Croatia in 1990 when 1 million were killed in 1941-45?
Can someone out there please explain this riddle to me?

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Re: Jasenovac

Post by David Thompson » 05 May 2009 03:54

grom1941 -- You wrote:
wikipedia, jasenovac.org, forged communist propaganda photos? lets take that as gospel shall we.

Our intelligent readers can make up their own minds about questions of truth. They're looking for verifiable sources to help them. Your post doesn't provide any. Please review the forum and section rules to get a better idea of what we're looking for. They're posted for all to see at:

H&WC Section Rules
viewtopic.php?t=53962

grom1941
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Re: Jasenovac

Post by grom1941 » 05 May 2009 23:10

Rob - wssob2,

Can you please enlighten us all to which NDH documents you are referring to when you mention "NDH's policy of genocide" ?

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Junak1929
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Re: Jasenovac

Post by Junak1929 » 06 May 2009 07:31

@ Rob - lol Fra Majstorovic lol is he cousins with Fra Brzica too ? See the AHF thread "Documentary about Ustase" - please and thank you.

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Re: Jasenovac

Post by Junak1929 » 06 May 2009 07:37

I would like to re-direct the readers of the AHF forums to the Discussion pages on NDH related articles on wikipedia. Almost every single one is controlled and moderated by the exact same three users who in their profile pages openly support the idea of yugoslavism, titoism, communism and or so-called antifascism. These users are tightly nit, one can view on their talk pages and basically run a monopoly over all NDH related articles - their english is poor, but they insist on writing on english wikipedia for some reason - but refuse to take part in Croatian wikipedia, where the articles are no where near as bias.

Rob - wssob2
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Re: Jasenovac

Post by Rob - wssob2 » 07 May 2009 04:45

Can you please enlighten us all to which NDH documents you are referring to when you mention "NDH's policy of genocide"


Sure.

Misha Glenny's book The Balkans: Nationalism, War & the Great Powers, 1804-1999 includes a chapter called "The City of the Dead" with a subsection titled "Genocide- the Balkan Camps: Romania, Croatia, Bosnia and Serbia" Here are some quotes:

p. 486:
"...The Ustase turned their territory into one great slaughterhouse...In Croatia, the terror unleashed by the Ustase against the Serbian villages of Croatia, Bosnia and Hercegovina drove Serbs into the arms of the Chetniks and the Partisans."


p.498-499:

...The terror in Croatia (which now included Bosnia and Hercegovina) was directed against the usual targets of a fascist party - Jews, Gypsies, homosexuals, and political opponents of the Ustase. But Pavelic was also determined to 'solve' the Serb question in Croatia: a third of the two million Serbs in the NDH would be expelled; a third would be assimilated through conversion from Orthodoxy to Catholicism; and a third would be killed. With such a range of potential victims, the Ustase leadership tried to simplify its policy of mass extermination wherever possible. As early as 17 April 1941, the Legal Decree for the Defense of the People and State was published. The first clause proclaimed 'Whosoever in whatever manner offends or has offended against the honor and vital interests of the Croat nation, or in whatever manner threatens the existence of the Independent State of Croatia or the state authorities, whether in deed or in mere intent, this person has committed the crime of high treason.' (footnote 25) The decree allowed for retroactive persecution and made no attempt to define the 'honor' or 'vital interests' of the Croats; it was a formula that allowed the Ustase to fashion a case of high treason against anyone.


Footnote 25 cites Bogdan Krizman's Pavelic izmedju Hitlera i Mussolinija Zagreb, 1980 p.117.

the passage continues

"The Ustase has more difficulty defining Serbs, who were indistinguishable from Croats in racial terms. Serbs were stigmatized instead on the grounds of culture and confession. They were defined as 'Eastern Greek' in the Decree on Conversion from One Faith to Another which came into force on 3 May 1941...The leadership wanted to ensure that Serbs with money and education did not survive the planned genocide. The the Jews and Gypsies, Croatia's Serbs were denied citizenship in the NDH, a measure designed to speed up the sequestration of the victim's assets. The proceeds were used in party to pay for the physical liquidation of the original owner."


Page 501 gives a brief synopsis of the Jasenovac camp, the salient points of which have already been mention on various AHF threads to date.

Another book that touches upon the planned, genocidal policies of the NDH is Richard West's Tito and the Rise and Fall of Yugoslavia (Carroll & Graf Publishers, 1995). For example, in the chapter "The Ustase Terror":

p.89
...Two months before he met the bishops, Pavelic had begun to put into action his plan to wipe out the two million Orthodox Christians, Jews and Gypsies within the NDH. In April 1941 the government issued decrees forbidding the use of Cyrillic script, closing the Orthodox schools and making the Serbs wear blue armbands, with the letter 'P' for 'Pravoslav' (Orthodox). In May and June the government passed laws depriving the Jews of the right to property or marriage with Gentiles."


West discusses the NDH policy of forced conversion of Serbs on subsequent pages, which includes this passage on p.93:

...The Ustase newspaper Hrvatska Krajina carried a long report on the visit by Victor Gutic to the Franciscan monastery at Pertricevac, where he delivered a rousing address:
'Like an angel with a fiery sword, Prefect Dr. Gutic raised his voice which had been muted until now, declaring emphatically: 'Each and every Croat who takes the side of our enemy of yesterday [the Serbs] is not only not a good Croat but an opponent and hinderer of our previously thought-out and calculated plan for the cleansing of our Croatia of unwanted elements. Let us call on the mercy of God if that patriotic labor sometimes oversteps the usual bounds of religious morals and ethics, knowing that Almighty God, the most stern but also the most good and charitable, will approve the struggle to guard the independence of the long-suffering but God-loving Croatian people. (footnote 31)


Gutic was one of the first on record to use the term 'cleansing' (in Serbo-Croat 'ciscenje', pronounced cheesh-chen-ye) to mean the elimination of Serbs or Orthodox Christians from the NDH. It later became the semi-official euphemism, occurring constantly in the documents of the administration.


Footnote 31 cites Viktor Novak's Magum Crimen p.705 (Zagreb, 1948)

For those interested in the historiography of the NDH regime, West specifically mentions in his footnotes section that there is little written in any language that gives a comprehensive history of the WWII Croatian state. However, he does includes some helpful suggestions on works to consult and scholars to research for additional information, including the Croatian historians Fikrita Jelic-Butic, Bogdan Krizman and Antun Miletic, the latter who has specialized in and gathered documentation on NDH concentration camps. Perhaps the most comprehensive work on the crimes of the NDH is Novak's 1948 work Magum Crimen: Pola vijeka klerikalizma u Hrvatskoj, which was banned by Tito.

Another great source of information is the diaries of Glaises von Horstenau, a former K.u.K. officer who served as the German Plenipotentiary General to the NDH during WWII. Ein General im Zwielicht: Die Erinnerungen Edmund Glaises von Horstenau, published in the 1980's, documents the NDH's genocidal campaign against non-Croats and the General's rising dislike for the Pavelic regime.

Perhaps the first book in English to mention NDH crimes was Stephen Clissold's Whirlwind, published in 1948. Clissold served in the Allied military mission to the Partisans during WWII and was a prewar resident of Zagreb.

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Re: Jasenovac

Post by David Thompson » 07 May 2009 05:42

Junak1929 -- You wrote:
I would like to re-direct the readers of the AHF forums to the Discussion pages on NDH related articles on wikipedia. Almost every single one is controlled and moderated by the exact same three users who in their profile pages openly support the idea of yugoslavism, titoism, communism and or so-called antifascism.

That means this is your chance to shine, by providing our readers with alternative sources of information. On behalf of myself and our readers, I hope you take advantage of the chance to present additional information on the thread topic -- Jasenovac camp.

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Junak1929
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Re: Jasenovac

Post by Junak1929 » 08 May 2009 09:18

David Thompson wrote:Junak1929 -- You wrote:
I would like to re-direct the readers of the AHF forums to the Discussion pages on NDH related articles on wikipedia. Almost every single one is controlled and moderated by the exact same three users who in their profile pages openly support the idea of yugoslavism, titoism, communism and or so-called antifascism.

That means this is your chance to shine, by providing our readers with alternative sources of information. On behalf of myself and our readers, I hope you take advantage of the chance to present additional information on the thread topic -- Jasenovac camp.


Dude, seriously, do you know what kind of battle this is - seriously now, there is 60 years of communist revisionism out there, and tons of sources and books as noted above based completely on yugoslav secondary sources (every last one !) - the guy even quotes Bogdan Krizman's books which were published in yugoslavia and approved by the communist government.

I would like the above user to please present actual NDH legislation (it does exist I have tons of it, I can even post all of the Racial Laws in NDH which are easily accessible to anyone and everyon a la the Sakic trial which can be accessed on line - translation might take me a while - otherwise, this genocide is all talk of Pavelic's "plans" to do this this and this, but no legal decrees or decelerations in NDH say anything about this, and if he was so against Orthodox anything why was there a Croatian Orthodox Church in NDH as of 1942? How does this go along with his genocidal policy and hate for Serbs ?

All of my information is practically in Croatian - all of it from actual documents from NDH, to translate all or any of this takes tons of time and effort, and sometimes I ask why bother - are any of YOU actually going to write any books on the matter any time soon?

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Junak1929
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Re: Jasenovac

Post by Junak1929 » 08 May 2009 09:32

For those interested in the historiography of the NDH regime, West specifically mentions in his footnotes section that there is little written in any language that gives a comprehensive history of the WWII Croatian state. However, he does includes some helpful suggestions on works to consult and scholars to research for additional information, including the Croatian historians Fikrita Jelic-Butic, Bogdan Krizman and Antun Miletic, the latter who has specialized in and gathered documentation on NDH concentration camps. Perhaps the most comprehensive work on the crimes of the NDH is Novak's 1948 work Magum Crimen: Pola vijeka klerikalizma u Hrvatskoj, which was banned by Tito.

Another great source of information is the diaries of Glaises von Horstenau, a former K.u.K. officer who served as the German Plenipotentiary General to the NDH during WWII. Ein General im Zwielicht: Die Erinnerungen Edmund Glaises von Horstenau, published in the 1980's, documents the NDH's genocidal campaign against non-Croats and the General's rising dislike for the Pavelic regime.

Perhaps the first book in English to mention NDH crimes was Stephen Clissold's Whirlwind, published in 1948. Clissold served in the Allied military mission to the Partisans during WWII and was a prewar resident of Zagreb.


-Jelic Butic published his greatest works in the 70s in yugoslavia during communism Let me highlight the fact that CROATIAN COMMUNISTS in the 70s were being imprisoned for speaking out for LANGUAGE RIGHTS, for the RIGHT to a Croatian language- not a country, and because of this were branded as Ustase and some served up to 12 years in harsh communist prison.

Bogdan Krizman - also published all of his works during communist yugoslavia with the approval of the communist yugoslavian regime. Stjepan Durekovic - a Croatian emigree wrote a book which is currently on my bed stand about the killings being committed by the yugoslav regime in the free world and was shot and killed a few months later, after him they then killed his son and one man was already sentenced in Germany last year - convicted of murder for being acommunist yugoslav agent who killed Durekovic under the orders of the communist government.

Antun Miletic was a researcher in Belgrade - Serbia- during yugoslavia and his works were also published in the 70s in communist yugoslavia, approved and distributed by the communist regime.

All three are cited over and over again as secondary sources and you now call them Croatian ones, whereas every last one of these guys prior to 1990 was anything but Croatian, they were yugoslavians, and they were "historians" in yugoslavia - the same yugoslavia that imprisoned Croatian communists for taking part in the Croatian spring, a student protest supporting the Croatian language !

Glaise and Kasche are both good sources but context has to be viewed to and position. Both of them were furious with the fact that Hitler would not grant them control of all military forces in NDH, and both were on bad terms with many people in the NDH ministry.

Anything published in the 40's is clearly completely made up of yugoslavian secondary sources as they were the only ones available.

Other informing pieces are primary sources by actual leaders of NDH including Pavelic himself, the thousands of documents in the hands of Visnja Pavelic who to this day refuses to hand them over to the Croatian National Archive - and the rest were stolen adn tucked away in Belgrade by the former communist regime.

This is not a matter where you can read a few books and know something, this is one of those deals where you have to conduct your own research, talk to the few surviving - read even Croatian emigree papers and take every single side with a grain of salt or a mountain of salt if it is comming from communist sources.

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Re: Jasenovac

Post by David Thompson » 20 May 2009 23:53

A post from grom1941, containing personal remarks about another poster, were deleted by this moderator - DT.

grom1941 -- Please review the forum and section rules. They're posted for all to see at:

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viewtopic.php?t=53962

grom1941
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Re: Jasenovac

Post by grom1941 » 21 May 2009 05:06

Sorry David,

Let me try and re-phrase....

Thanks Junak1929 for so thoroughly debunking the hysterical ranting of Rob - wssob2's sources of 'information' ie books written by enemies of the Croatian state with obvious hidden motives.

I believe the request was for OFFICIAL NDH documents that would back up claims by Rob - wssob2 of 'NDH's policy of genocide' - where are they?

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