Jasenovac

[michael mills]

While it is undeniable that the Pavelic regime in the wartime Croatian state (which Included present-day Bosnia-Herzegovina) used brutal violence on a large scale against persons and groups it considered its enemies, including at the Jasenovac Concentration Camp, it is questionable whether it really had a policy of genocide, ie a policy of physically destroying whole unwanted population groups within its territory.

As Junak1929 points out, quite correctly in my view, the creation by the Croatian Government of a Croatian Orthodox Church, to which all all adherents of the Serbian Orthodox Church living in the territory of the NDH were compelled to adhere by governemta decree, is not consistent with a policy of the physical destruction of those adherents. Rather, it points to a policy of severing the ties of the Orthodox population of Croatia and Bosnia-Herzegovina to the Serbian Orthodox Church, and hence to the Serbian state, and bringing them under the control of the Croatian Government by means of a state-controlled church. While such a move may have been tyrannical, to the extent that it was an attempt to force a population to give up its religious affiliation against its will (maybe), it can in no sense be called genocidal.

If the Pavelic regime had intended to commit genocide against the Orthodox population living within the territory ruled by it, that it to destroy it and create a situation where no persons belonging to an Orthodox community continued to live in that territory, then there would have been no reason whatever to create a Croatian Orthodox Church, an act which in itself implies the acceptance by the Pavelic regime that an orthodox population would remain in existence in the NDH, albeit no longer identifying as "Serb".

It seems to me that Rob-SSOB starts with the presumption that the Pavelic regime had a policy of destroying the Orthodox population within the territory of the NDH, so therefore any action action undertaken by that regime in regard to the Orthodox population must ipso facto have served that genocidal policy. That can be the only explanation for his writing the ridiculous opinion piece elsewhere in this Forum about the Croatian Orthodox Church as an "instrument of genocide", in my view the silliest and most ill-informed thing he has written so far.

When the Croatian state was created in 1941, by the grace of the German and Italian conquerors of Yugoslavia, being essentially an expanded version of the autonomous Banovina created in 1939, it had a mixed population of Catholics, identified as "Croats", Orthodox, identified as "Serbs", and Muslims. The aim of the Pavelic regime, which was secular nationalist in orientation rather than religious, was to create a Croatian nation to which Orthodox and Muslims could belong as much as Catholics.

In that respect, the aim of the Pavelic regime was rather similar to that of the Austrian rulers of Bosnia-Herzegovina, who between 1907 and 1918 tried to create a Bosnian nationality that would include all the inhabitants of that territory, Muslim, Orthodox and Catholic alike, an attempt continued in our own time by the present Muslim rulers of Bosnia, albeit with little success.

It should be remembered that until 1918, the Serbian Orthodox Church consisted only of Orthodox Serbs living within the Kingdom of Serbia. It had been created in the 19th Century, after Serbia gained its independence from the Ottoman Empire, and represented a break from the Patriarchate of Constantinople. The Orthodox populations of the Habsburg Empire, in modern Croatia and Bosnia, were organised into the churches of Sremski Karlovci, Bosnia-Herzegovina and Dalmatia. In 1922, those churches were compelled by the Yugoslav Government (essentially the pre-war Serbian Government ruling over an expanded territory) to unite with the Serbian Orthodox Church to create the Serbian Patriarchate, which represented an extension of Serbian political control over the whole Orthodox population of the new Yugoslavia.

Just as the incorporation of all Orthodox populations in the newly created Yugoslavia into the Serbian Orthodox Church was a political act intended to extend Serbian influence and control throughout the new state, so was the creation of the Croatian Orthodox Church a political act intended to remove the Orthodox populations in the newly created Croatian State from Serbian influence and control.

None of the above gainsays the fact that the Pavelic regime used extreme violence against any individual or group that opposed it or resisted its actions and policies, even if only passively. Furthermore, there were Croatian Catholic religious extremists, particularly among the Franciscan order, affiliated with the Pavelic regime, who conceived of the new Croatian State as synonymous with a Catholic society, and promoted the idea that Orthodox "heretics" could not be permitted to remain within the state; they must convert to Catholicism or be driven out, and even killed if they resisted.

[David Horowitz]

While it is undeniable that the Pavelic regime in the wartime Croatian state (which Included present-day Bosnia-Herzegovina) used brutal violence on a large scale against persons and groups it considered its enemies, including at the Jasenovac Concentration Camp, it is questionable whether it really had a policy of genocide, ie a policy of physically destroying whole unwanted population groups within its territory.

It is not questionable wheter Pavelic`s regime in Croatia had policy of genocide. You should visit Yad Vashem Holocaust museum website and learn more on genocide which have happened in Croatia.

http://www1.yadvashem.org/odot_pdf/Micr ... 205930.pdf

Croatia

Region of Yugoslavia until spring 1941 and after the end of World War II. Croatia was a puppet state ruled by the fascist Ustasa movement but supervised by the Germans during most of war; and since 1991, a separate state.

Germany invaded Yugoslavia in April 1941, and divided the country amongst its allies. The region of Croatia was united with Bosnia and Herzegovina into the Independent State of Croatia, and put under the control of the Ustasa movement. Almost immediately, the Ustasa embarked upon a campaign to "purge Croatia of foreign elements." This mainly referred to the Eastern Orthodox Serb minority living in Croatia, greatly despised by the Catholic Ustasa.

More than 500,000 Serbs were murdered in horribly sadistic ways (mostly in the summer of 1941), 250,000 were expelled, and another 200,000 were forced to convert to Catholicism.

Another group of "foreign elements" whom the Ustasa wanted to destroy was Croatia's Jewish population, numbering some 37,000. Just days after taking control of the Croatian government, the Ustasa began issuing anti-Jewish legislation. Over the next few months, Jews were stripped of their property and jobs, their freedom of movement was restricted, and they were forced to wear the Jewish badge.



http://www1.yadvashem.org/odot_pdf/Micr ... 206358.pdf

Jasenovac

Located in Croatia 62 miles south of Zagreb, Jasenovac was Croatia’s largest concentration and extermination camp. Jasenovac, was a network of several sub-camps, established in August 1941 and dissolved in April 1945. The Nazis gave control of Jasenovac to the puppet Croatian government, which was run by the fascist Ustasa movement. A large number of Ustasa members served in the camp, most notably Miroslav Filipovic-Majstorovic, who was notorious for killing prisoners with his bare hands.

In total, about 600,000 people were murdered at Jasenovac, including Serbs, Jews, Gypsies, and Croats who opposed the Ustasa Government. Of that number, some 25,000 of the victims were Jews - most of whom had been brought to Jasenovac before August 1942. (at which point the Germans began deporting the Jews of Croatia to Auschwitz).
Jews were brought to Jasenovac from all over Croatia. Most were killed upon arrival, whilst a small number of skilled professionals were kept alive to work at the camp. Prisoners endured horrible conditions and brutal treatment at the
hands of the Ustasa guards. Near the end of the war, Jasenovac's administration blew up much of the camp and killed most of the prisoners, in an attempt to conceal evidence of the mass murders that took place there.

[Rob - wssob2]

A page back, grom1941 wrote

I believe the request was for OFFICIAL NDH documents that would back up claims by Rob - wssob2 of 'NDH's policy of genocide' - where are they?

The University of Minnesota's Center for Holocaust and Genocide Studies has a great curriculum model page which outlines the archival source evidence for the genocidal policies of the NDH regime at http://chgs.umn.edu/educational/croatia/

I won't cut and paste the entire page (it's rather lengthly) but there are two sections that index the primary source documentation

From Croatian archives:

stasha Supervisory Office (UNS) - Zagreb (1941-1943); 1941-1943: 5 boxes, app. 5,000 pages
(USTAŠKA NADZORNA SLU¥BA (UNS). ¥IDOVSKI ODSJEK. UPRAVA LOGORA-ZAGREB (1941-1943); 1941/1943; 5 kut; oko 5.000 listova).

Ustasha Supervisory Office - Directorate of the Usatsha Protective Office-Jewish Section-Zagreb (-1941-1943); 1941/1942: 10 boxes, 13,500 pages
(UNS - RAVNATELJSTVO USTAŠKOGA (ZAŠTITNOG) REDARSTVA. ¥IDOVSKI ODSJEK-ZAGREB (1941-1943); 1941/1942; l0 kut.).

Branch-Office of the Ustasha Intelligence Service in Zagreb - Jewish Section (1941-1942); 1941-1942: 8 boxes, 4,220 items.
(ISPOSTAVA USTAŠKOG REDARSTVENOG POVJERENIŠTVA U ZAGREBU. ¥IDOVSKI ODSJEK. - ZAGREB (1941-1942); 1941-1942; 8 kut.).

Ustasha Supervisory Office for the City and the District of Koprivnica (1941-1943); 1941; 1 box, 989 pages.
(UNS- USTAŠKO POVJERENIŠTVO ZA GRAD I KOTAR KOPRIVNICU-KOPRIVNICA (1941-1943); 1941; 1 kut.)

Ministry of Internal Affairs of the Independent State of Croatia- Cheif Directorate for Public Order and Safety - Jewish Section (MUP NDH) -Zagreb (1942-1945); 2 boxes, 1,950 pages. Partially preserved.
(MINISTARSTVO UNUTARNJIH POSLOVA NDH-GLAVNO RAVNATELJSTVO ZA JAVNI RED I SIGURNOST. ¥IDOVSKI ODSJEK (MUP NDH)-ZAGREB (1942-1945); 1942; 2 kut.).

Ministry of Health and Social Services - The Head Directorate for Social Services and Social Welfare (MU) – Zagreb (1941-1945); 1941-1945: 24 boxes, about 23,000 pages. App. 5 per cent of the material relates to the Jewish issue.
(MINISTARSTVO ZDRAVSTVA I UDRU¥BE. GLAVNO RAVNATELJSTVO ZA UDRU¥BU I DRUŠTVENU SKRB (MU) - ZAGREB (1941-1945); I941-1945; 24 kut.).

Ministry of the State Treasury. The Department of State Property, Misappropriations and Debts. The Office for Nationalized Property (REVISION)-Zagreb (1941-1945): 1941-1945: 751 sheaves, about 720,000 pages. App. 50 per cent of the material relates to the Jewish issue.
(MINISTARSTVO DR¥AVNE RIZNICE. ODJEL ZA DR¥AVNU IMOVINU, NAVJERE I DUGOVE. URED ZA PODR¥AVLJENI IMETAK (PONOVA) - ZAGREB (1941-1945); 1941-I945; 751 sve¥anj.).

State Commission for the Determination of the Crimes Committed by the Occupiers and Their Supporters in the People's Republic of Croatia (ZKRZ) - Zagreb (1944-1947): 1944-1947: There are 9 boxes relating exclusively to the Jews and 9 boxes of lists of victims arranged according to the site of crime (including Jews): app. 18,000 pages.
(ZEMALJSKA KOMISIJA ZA UTVR¥IVANJE ZLO¥INA OKUPATORA I NJIHOVIH POMAGA¥A NARODNE REPUBLIKE HRVATSKE (ZKRZ) –ZAGREB (1944-1947); 1944-1947.).

The district, community and city commissions were submitted to the State Commission.

Ministry of Internal Affairs of the People's Republic of Croatia (MUP NRH) - Zagreb (1945-1953): 1941-1953: 4 boxes, 17,500 pages, about 2,500 page's.
(MINISTARSTVO UNUTRAŠNJIH POSLOVA NARODNE REPUBLIKE HRVATSKE (MUP NRH) - ZAGREB (1945-1953); 1941-1953: 4 kut: Dokumentacija Slu¥be dr¥avne sigurnosti o stradanjima ¥idova u NDH od 1941-1945.).

Public Prosecuter's Office of the People's Republic of Croatia -Zagreb (1945-1953); 1941-1953: 8 boxes.
(JAVNO TU¥ILAŠTVO NRH - ZAGREB (1945-1953); 1941-1953: 8 kut: Optu¥nica Paveli¥ Artukovi¥.).

Collection of the Archival Materials on the History of the Labour Movement of Zagreb (Zb. PRP): 1945-1950; 24 boxes, app. 17,500 pages. App. 45 % of the archival material relates to the Jews.
(ZBIRKA GRA¥E ZA POVIJEST RADNI¥KOG POKRETA ZAGREBA (Zb.PRP): 1945-1950; 24 kut.).

Collection of Printed Material: 1941-1945; 7,000 pieces of which approximately 200 relate to the Jews.
(ZBIRKA TISKOVINA: 1941-1945; oko 200 kom.).

The microfilmed documentation that the Croatian State Archives sent to the USHMM include the following:

Alphabetical list of biographies of Jewish victims from the letter A to Z
(microfilm roll 1-10)
Abecedni popis biografija stradalih ¥idova od slova A-Z
(mikrofilmski svitak 1-10)

Branch-Office of the Ustasha Police Commission in Zagreb – Jewish
section (Independent State of Croatia (ISC) 1941-1945)
(microfilm roll 10-19)
Ispostava ustaškog redarstvenog povjereništva Zagreb – ?idovski odsjek
(mikrofilmski svitak 10-19)

Ustasha Police Directorate – Jewish section (ISC)
(microfilm roll 20-27)
Ravnateljstvo ustaškog redarstva – ?idovski odsjek
(mikrofilmski svitak 20-27)

Ustasha Police Commission - Zagreb (ISC)-questionaries
(microfilm roll 28-30)
Ustaško redarstveno povjereništvo - Zagreb
(mikrofilmski svitak 28-30)

Concentration Camps: Ðakovo, Lobor Grad, Gornja Rijeka, Jasenovac, Krušcica, Kupari (ISC)
(microfilm roll 31-33)
Sabirni logori: Ðakovo, Lobor Grad, Gornja Rijeka, Jasenovac, Krušcica, Kupari
(mikrofilmski svitak 31-33)

Miscellanies about the Jews:

Ministry of Health and Social Services, the Head Directorate for the Social Services and Social welfare (ISC)

Ustasha Supervisory Office for the City and the District of Koprivnica (ISC)

State Commission for the Determination of the Crimes Comitted by the Occupiers and their Supporters in the People's Republic of Croatia (ZKRZ) (1944-1947)
(microfilm roll 34-41)

Ministry of Internal Affairs of the Independent State of Croatia
Republic Secretariat of the Internal Affairs of the Socialistic Republic of Croatia, State Security Service (1945-1953)
(microfilm roll 41-44)
Ministarstvo unutarnjih poslova NDH
Republi¥ki sekretarijat za unutarnje poslove Socijalisti¥ke Republike Hrvatske, Slu¥ba dr¥avne sigurnosti
(mikrofilmski svitak 41-44)

Public Prosecutor's Office of the Socialistic Republic of Croatia
(microfilm roll 45)
Javno tu?ilaštvo NRH
(mikrofilmski svitak 45)

Public Prosecutor's Office of the Socialistic Republic of Croatia, Bill of Indictment dr. Ante Pavelic – dr. Andrija Artukovic (1951-1959)
(microfilm roll 46-49)
Javno tu¥ilaštvo SRH, optu¥nica Pavelic – Artukovic
(mikrofilmski svitak 46-49)

Ministry of State Treasury, the Department of Finance, State Property, and Debts, the Office for Nationalised Property (Revision) (ISC)
(microfilm roll 50-68, 73-190)
Ministarstvo dr¥avne riznice, Odjel za novcarstvo, dr¥avnu imovinu i dugove, Ured za podr¥avljeni imetak (Ponova)
(mikrofilmski svitak 50-68, 73-190, 191-356)

Archival records stored in the Croatian Historical Museum, 20th Century Work of Arts Collection
(microfilm roll 69-72)
Hrvatski povijesni muzej, Arhivska grada o ¥idovima iz Zbirke likovnih djela 20. st.
(mikrofilmski svitak 69-72)

As I mentioned earlier, translated excerpts of the NDH laws implementing genocide were published in Raphael Lemkin's 1944 book Axis Rule in Occupied Europe: Laws of Occupation, Analysis of Government, Proposals for Redress On page 625-626, under a section headed "Genocide Legislation" one can find the following:


- The Decree Law concerning the Preservation of Croatian National Property, April 14, 1941
- The Law concerning Prohibition of the Cyrillic Alphabet, April 25, 1941
- The Law Concerning Nationality, April 30, 1941

One can find the text of these laws using Google Books at this URL: http://books.google.com/books?id=y0in2w ... #PPA625,M1

[Rob - wssob2]

The New York Times website has a digital reprint of an interesting International Herald Tribune article which is pertinient to this discussion:

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/11/27/world ... ted=1&_r=1

Croatia tries to shed light on dark chapter in its history - Europe - International Herald Tribune
By Nicholas Wood
Published: Monday, November 27, 2006

JASENOVAC, Croatia: As histories of the Holocaust go, that of the concentration camp at Jasenovac probably ranks among the most brutal and certainly the most disputed.

Almost everyone agrees that the Nazi puppet regime that ruled Croatia from 1941 to 1945 imprisoned hundreds of thousands of Serbs, Jews, Gypsies and opponents here and in dozens of other camps and that many, many prisoners were killed.

But in the 61 years since the camp was closed, successive governments have written and rewritten history. Communist and nationalist rulers, Serbs and Croats, each pursuing their own ideological goals, have apportioned blame differently and alternately exaggerated or downplayed the number of those killed.

On Monday, Croatia opened a new museum in Jasenovac, a memorial regarded by many inside and outside the country as a test of this young state - which declared independence from Yugoslavia in 1991, fought the Serbs over that for four years, and is now trying to get into the European Union - and its ability both to set aside and set straight its 20th-century history.

Prime Minister Ivo Sanader insisted at the ceremonies Monday that "today's Croatia does not want to stay silent about the dark pages of its past."

But, after decades of distortion, writing truth on those pages is hard.

As with most of the former Nazi or Nazi-inspired death camps that dot central and eastern Europe, there is little sense today of what occurred here. Green lawns and avenues of trees have grown up where barracks and workshops used to stand; poplars sway gracefully next to the languid River Sava, which skirts the camp.

A large concrete monument in the shape of a flower - a classic of 1960s communist architecture, built during the rule of Josip Broz Tito - stands alone in the center of a field.

What distinguished the killing at Jasenovac was its randomness, and its ferocity. There were no gas ovens; prisoners died by having their throats slit and their skulls smashed. Others were shot or hanged from telegraph polls and the trees that lined the Sava.

Under the Communist Yugoslavia of Tito, official historians put the number of dead at more than 700,000, the vast majority of them Serbs.

Gruesome exhibits - some of which were not from Jasenovac - were set up to endorse this version; under the Tito regime, which placed the slogan "Brotherhood and Unity" above the bloody rifts of Balkan history, where all overt nationalism was suspect and even singing a nationalist song could result in imprisonment, the exhibits served as a proof for many Serbs of their suffering at the hands of the Croats.

In 1991, after Croatia declared independence from Belgrade, Serbian forces seized the site, damaged the museum and took away most of its contents.

In 1995, Jasenovac fell back into Croatian hands; simultaneously the official death toll fell to less than 40,000. The president of Croatia at the time, Franjo Tudjman, who had spearheaded the drive for independence and brought a distinct nationalist hue to politics and history, announced a plan to bury at the site the bones of those killed on both sides in World War II. Jasenovac survivors and Jewish groups thwarted this idea to mix, as they saw it, the remains of victims and perpetrators.

Tudjman died in 1999. His party, the Croatian Democratic Union, still dominates Croatia but now seeks to jettison its nationalist image.

And so the new museum and exhibition has been organized in cooperation with the Holocaust Museum in Washington and the one at Yad Vashem, Israel.

Politicians and curators are aware that their task is to confront ideas propagated by Tudjman - namely that the Nazi-backed Ustasha government of Croatia was a benevolent rather than fascist government, which fought for the interests of Roman Catholic Croats against both Communists and nationalist, Orthodox Serbs.

Croatia's current president, Stipe Mesic, a Tudjman ally in 1991 who later turned against him, noted at the opening ceremony the need for continuing vigilance against nationalism and historical distortion.

"Young people are led to sing songs about the butchers of the Ustasha regime, and even the commander of this camp" at rock concerts in Croatia, Mesic said. "They have to be saved."

The new exhibition is quick to acknowledge the competing views of different regimes. The wildly varying estimates of those killed were "a result of using Jasenovac for political purposes," reads a sign near the entrance. Researchers at the museum say they have proof that 69,842 people were killed, almost 19,000 of them children. Nationality and ethnicity are not listed.

A series of darkened rooms reveals video screens with testimonies of survivors. The names of the dead are listed on ceilings and walls.

There is little to recall the cruelty and degradation; the museum focuses on personal stories, not historical background.

"There is nothing here to explain how this happened," said Efraim Zuroff, Jerusalem director of the Simon Wiesenthal Center, who attended the opening. There is no context.

"Jasenovac was not a tsunami. It didn't just happen. A young person walking in there won't understand how the state came to power and why it targeted those people."

The exhibition won praise from members of the Holocaust Museum in Washington, who advised the curators and are also working on an education program about the Holocaust for Croatian schools.

The museum's director said Croatia faced more difficulties than most countries when talking about the Holocaust, because of the more recent 1990s war.

"During Communist times, bones were on display here," said Natasa Jovicic, the director, who lost dozens of relatives here. "Films were shown that were so horrific, people were fainting."

"You have to remember that Jasenovac was used as an excuse by Serbs in their war crime trials," she said, referring to Serbs accused of violent crimes against Croats in the 1990s conflict.

"In other countries, where there have not been wars, it is different, but here we have to be doubly careful," she said. "There is nothing here that can be used for political propaganda or hatred."

About two dozen survivors attended the ceremony. Some carried former ration cards from the camp, and photos of friends who perished.

Shua Abinun, 87, a survivor, had not yet seen the new exhibition, because the rooms were too crowded. What he had heard suggested it might be an improvement, he said. "But with every government, you know, it changes," he added, and laughed.

[Rob - wssob2]

I'll respond to some of Michael Mill's comments on this thread but address the comments on the Croatian Orthodox church on the separate thread I created.

While it is undeniable that the Pavelic regime in the wartime Croatian state (which Included present-day Bosnia-Herzegovina) used brutal violence on a large scale against persons and groups it considered its enemies, including at the Jasenovac Concentration Camp, it is questionable whether it really had a policy of genocide, ie a policy of physically destroying whole unwanted population groups within its territory.

I'd like to point out that I've provided citations from distinguished journalists such as Misha Glenny, who called it genocide. New forum member David Horowitz (welcome David!) pointed out that Yad Vashem considers it genocide, as does the USHMM and the University of Minnesota's Center for Holocaust and Genocide studies. Raphael Lemkin, the distinguished international law expert who coined the word genocide, considered what the NDH was doing to the Croatian Serbs and Jews genocide.

But you don't.

So other that the Croatian Orthodox Church (we'll address that on the separate thread) exactly what evidence do you have that all these others don't that compel us to determine that NDH policies and actions fell short of genocide?

[michael mills]

As I mentioned earlier, translated excerpts of the NDH laws implementing genocide were published in Raphael Lemkin's 1944 book Axis Rule in Occupied Europe: Laws of Occupation, Analysis of Government, Proposals for Redress On page 625-626, under a section headed "Genocide Legislation" one can find the following:


- The Decree Law concerning the Preservation of Croatian National Property, April 14, 1941
- The Law concerning Prohibition of the Cyrillic Alphabet, April 25, 1941
- The Law Concerning Nationality, April 30, 1941

I have read the excerpts from Lemkin's book available at the site linked by Rob-WSSOB, and I could not find anything in those excerpts that suggested a genocidal policy.

The first law simply stated that all transactions between Jews or between Jews and a third party with a value of over 100,000 dinars effected in the two months prior to the independence of Croatia were declared null and void unless registered with the Ministry of Justice.

The second law prohibited the use of the Cyrillic alphabet. (Note: Atatürk prohibited the use of the Arabic alphabet in Turkey; so far as I know, no-one has accused him of genocide against the Turkish people)

The third law stated that a Croatian national was any person under the protection of the Croatian state, and that a citizen was a national of Aryan origin who had not opposed the creation of an independent Croatia. Those provisions of course exclude Jews from Croatian citizenship, but denial of citizenship does not of itself add up to genocide.

Perhaps Rob can demonstrate to us exactly what elements in those laws are genocidal. It is not enough to say that Lemkin considered them as such; we can think for ourselves, and we need to be convinced.

As I previously wrote, there is no doubt that violence on a large scale was used against parts of the Serbian Orthodox population living in the territory of the new Croatian state, particularly in the summer of 1941, but the degree of violence, and the numbers killed, are not at a level that demonstrates the existence of a genocidal policy of destroying that population. On the contrary, the establishment of the Croatian Orthodox Church in 1942 shows that the Croatian Government accepted the continued existence of an orthodox population on the territory of the Croatian state, and that its aim was a political one of changing the orientation and allegiance of that population.

It may well be that the Croatian Government took the view that any adherent of the Serbian Orthodox Church in Croatia who refused to become an adherent of the Croatian Orthodox Church (which did not require a change in religious belief or practice, simply a change of political allegiance) was committing an act of treason, which deserved punishment, for example by being sent to Jasenovac. However, the classification of political acts as treason and their punishment as such, no matter how unjust, does not add up to genocide.

By the way, a copy of Lemkin's book is in the Australian National University library, and if the mood takes me I may consult it at some time, to see whether what he wrote about the policies of the croatian Government was reasonable, or was distorted by wartime propaganda.

[Junak1929]

It is not questionable wheter Pavelic`s regime in Croatia had policy of genocide. You should visit Yad Vashem Holocaust museum website and learn more on genocide which have happened in Croatia.

http://www1.yadvashem.org/odot_pdf/Micr ... 205930.pdf

Croatia

Region of Yugoslavia until spring 1941 and after the end of World War II. Croatia was a puppet state ruled by the fascist Ustasa movement but supervised by the Germans during most of war; and since 1991, a separate state.

:roll: As far as I am concerned, the very last sentence, this thread, and the fact that it is the user's first post - we are dealing with a Serb or a self-proclaimed 'yugoslav' in disguise.

Serbs and yugoslavs alike like to push the idea that - it was yugoslavia before and we brought it back after, then Croatia separated - Croatians "ruined" their dream. The fact of the matter is that Croatia was a Kingdom in 925 - not to mention Croatia divided existed prior to that since the 6th century - and was a Kingdom all the way up until 1102. Croatia was then signed over to the Hapsburgs - but Croatia still existed. "yugoslavia" is a 19th century experiment and an 18th century "idea".

In total, about 600,000 people were murdered at Jasenovac

600 Thousand weren't killed within all of NDH let alone at Jasenovac alone. Simply ridiculous - but I love it - the more you people spread this nonsense the more logical western and educated population is going to stand by and say - wait a minute ....

Read the previous threads and pages, don't waste our time with such nonsense.

[Junak1929]

Rob - none of those laws, decelerations say anything about killing or getting rid of a population - not even jews. You can access the Racial legislation of NDH via the Dinko Sakic trial online, however you may need a translator and a lot of time.

It seems to me that Rob-SSOB starts with the presumption that the Pavelic regime had a policy of destroying the Orthodox population within the territory of the NDH, so therefore any action action undertaken by that regime in regard to the Orthodox population must ipso facto have served that genocidal policy.

[David Thompson]

Junak1929 -- You wrote:

As far as I am concerned, the very last sentence, this thread, and the fact that it is the user's first post - we are dealing with a Serb or a self-proclaimed 'yugoslav' in disguise.

and

Simply ridiculous - but I love it - the more you people spread this nonsense the more logical western and educated population is going to stand by and say - wait a minute ....

While we appreciate the information you've provided, the forum doesn't care much for personal comments in posts. Please avoid them.

[David Horowitz]

It is not questionable wheter Pavelic`s regime in Croatia had policy of genocide. You should visit Yad Vashem Holocaust museum website and learn more on genocide which have happened in Croatia.

http://www1.yadvashem.org/odot_pdf/Micr ... 205930.pdf

Croatia

Region of Yugoslavia until spring 1941 and after the end of World War II. Croatia was a puppet state ruled by the fascist Ustasa movement but supervised by the Germans during most of war; and since 1991, a separate state.

:roll: As far as I am concerned, the very last sentence, this thread, and the fact that it is the user's first post - we are dealing with a Serb or a self-proclaimed 'yugoslav' in disguise.

Serbs and yugoslavs alike like to push the idea that - it was yugoslavia before and we brought it back after, then Croatia separated - Croatians "ruined" their dream. The fact of the matter is that Croatia was a Kingdom in 925 - not to mention Croatia divided existed prior to that since the 6th century - and was a Kingdom all the way up until 1102. Croatia was then signed over to the Hapsburgs - but Croatia still existed. "yugoslavia" is a 19th century experiment and an 18th century "idea".

In total, about 600,000 people were murdered at Jasenovac

600 Thousand weren't killed within all of NDH let alone at Jasenovac alone. Simply ridiculous - but I love it - the more you people spread this nonsense the more logical western and educated population is going to stand by and say - wait a minute ....

Read the previous threads and pages, don't waste our time with such nonsense.

I am Jewish. Have any problem with that?

Logical western and educated population would never use word "nonsense" for Yad Vashem documents on Holocaust, including documents on genocide in Croatia during WW2.

Yad Vashem is Israel`s official museum on Holocaust during WW2. Vashem for sure is not a nonsense for Barack Obama, Pope Benedict and all other leaders of the democratic world which have visited this museum so far.

[Junak1929]

I have no problem with you being jewish, nor do I have a problem with Yad Vashem generally speaking, it is not their fault that they could only access yugoslavian documents and information after 1945.

[michael mills]

Yad Vashem is Israel`s official museum on Holocaust during WW2. Vashem for sure is not a nonsense for Barack Obama, Pope Benedict and all other leaders of the democratic world which have visited this museum so far.

The above confuses the Yad Vashem Memorial and the Yad Vashem Museum.

Official visits to the Yad Vashem Memorial by Heads of State and Heads of Government are a ritual performed for political reasons to do with the present relationship between Israel and other states. They cannot be read as an endorsement of every claim made by the Yad Vashem Museum about historical events.

For example, Pope Benedict on his recently concluded visit to Israel made a speech at the Yad Vashem Memorial, but he did not enter the museum because the latter contains a display about the wartime Pope Pius XII that is highly critical of him. Obviously Pope Benedict disagrees with the Yad Vashem Museum's view about Pope Pius, and did not want to endorse it by visiting the museum.

It is quite apparent the Yad Vashem Museum's claim that 600,000 victims perished at the Jasenovac camp complex is grossly exaggerated. I have no special knowledge about Jasenovac, but I have read the extensively-documented Wikipedia article on it, which was obviously not written by apologists for the wartime Croatian state, and it is obvious from the figures quoted in that article that there is no generally agreed figure, and that there is a wide variation between maximum and minimum variants.

Addition of the maximum estimates for the various victim groups stated by the USHMM, as quoted in the Wikipedia article yields a total of 99,000 victims. Addition of the minimum estimates yields a total of 66,000 victims. Thus, the figure quoted by the Yad Vashem Museum, derived from offical Yugoslav claims, represents an almost ten-fold mulitplication of the minimum estimate of victims.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jasenovac_ ... ation_camp

The above article also contains the following passage in relation to the ethnic Serb victims of Jasenovac:

In the late summer of 1942, tens of thousands of Serbian villagers were deported to Jasenovac from the Kozara mountain area (in Bosnia) where NDH forces were fighting against the Yugoslav Partisans.[77] Most of the men were killed at Jasenovac, but women were sent to forced labor in Germany. Children were taken from their mothers and either killed or dispersed to Catholic orphanages.[78]

That suggests that ethnic Serbs were not sent to Jasenovac as the result of a Croatian Government official policy of genocide directed against the Serbian Orthodox minority of the NDH, but as a result of the ongoing Communist insurgency in the Kozara region. Most probably the ethnic Serb villagers sent to Jasenovac were believed to be supporters of the Communist insurgents (Partisans), and that was the reason for their incarceration, rather rather than specifically their Serbian Orthodox identity.

The article further suggests to me that the Jasenovac complex was not primarily an extermination centre, comparable with German killing centres in Poland such as Chelmno or Treblinka II, but rather a place for holding opponents of the Ustasha regime. It appears to me that the very death rate at Jasenovac was a result of two factors:

1. The primitive Balkan bloodlust of many of the staff manning the camp complex. A similar bloodlust was also displayed by all sides in the more recent conflict in the former Yugoslavia in the 1990s.

2. A need to create space for the prisoners who kept arriving at the camp complex. That would explain why men sentenced to terms of imprisonment over three years were scheduled for liquidation, while those with shorter sentences were not but were used for labour; the latter group of prisoners would soon leave the camp, creating room for new arrivals.

As for the Jews who perished at the Jasenovac camp complex, those deaths do not necessarily prove the existence of a genocidal policy of the Croatian Government in relation to the Jewish minority living on its territory. While I am not an expert in this area, what I have seen so far suggests that the Croatian Government had a policy of handing Jews over to the German authorities, at the latter's request. Jews were sent to Jasenovac for the purpose of holding them prior to their being transferred to German custody. The high Jewish death rate at Jasenovac was probably due to the same factors as those that caused the high death rate of other prisoners; the longer their transfer to German custody was delayed, and the longer they remained in Jasenovac, the more likely they were to fall victim to the brutal policy of killing longer-term prisoners to make way for new arrivals.

In summary, while the Jasenovac camp complex was an extremely brutal place, where primitive and probably mentally deranged guards carried out killing on a large scale, it does not appear to have been a place specifically designed to perpetrate genocide against any ethnic or religious group.

[michael mills]

With regard to the question of whether the wartime Croatian Government pursued a policy of genocide against the Serbian Orthodox minority in its territory, some interesting statistical data is provided by the Wikipedia article on the demographic history of Bosnia-Herzegovina.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of ... erzegovina

According to that article, the last pre-war census, in 1931, recorded 1,028,139 adherents of the Serbian Orthodox Church in Bosnia-Herzegovina. The first post-war census, in 1948, recorded 1,136,116 Serbian Orthodox in Bosnia-Herzegvina, ie, a net increase of almost 100,000.

The fact that between 1931 and 1948 the number of Orthodox Serbs living in Bosnia-Herzegovina actually increased hardly supports the claim that the wartime Croatian Government, which then ruled over Bosnia-Herzegovina, pursued a genocidal policy against that population group in the period 1941-45.

The only way in which there could have been a mortality of Bosnian Serbs between 1941 and 1945 of a sufficiently high level to give rise to a claim of genocide would have been if there had been a huge population increase in the 10 years from 1931 to 1941, and another population increase from 1945 and 1948. It is up to the supporters of the claim that the wartime Croatian Government committed genocide against the Orthodox Serbs of Bosnia to demonstrate conclusively that a population increase of that magnitude actually occurred.

The above article states that 129,114 Serbs were killed in Bosnia-Herzegovina during the Second World War. This was a figure given by the Federal Bureau of Statistics in Belgrade, which counted a total of 179,173 persons killed in Bosnia-Herzegovina, of which Serbs constituted 72.1%. Given that almost all the bloody communal conflict between 1941 and 1945 took place in Bosnia-Herzegovina, the quoted death-toll of Bosnian Serbs seems quite credible.

The article also states that during the war between 200,000 and 400,000 ethnic Serbs left Bosnia and became refugees in Serbia. At the end of the war, a substantial proportion of those refugees could have returned to their homes. The article states that by the end of the war, 137,00 Serbs had permanently left Bosnia-Herzegovina.

The Serb population of Bosnia-Herzegovina was further reduced after the war by the migration of Serbs to Vojvodina, to occupy lands left vacant by the expulsion of the ethnic German population. The article states that between 1945 and 1945, around 70,000 Serbs from Bosnia were resettled in Vojvodina.

All in all, the demographic data simply do not support the proposition that there was a genocide of ethnic Serbs in Bosnia-Herzegovina between 1941 and 1945, perpetrated by the wartime Croatian Government. The excess mortality that did occur during that time can be accounted for by the fighting between Croatian Government forces on one side and the Communist insurgents (Partisans) and Serbian nationalist insurgetns (Chetniks) on the other, in the course of which Croatian forces admittedly did carry out a rather brutal suppression of ethnic Serbs believed to be aiding the insurgents.

Further data is provided by the Wikipedia article on the Serbs of Croatia.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serbs_of_Croatia

According to that article, in 1931 there were 633,000 ethnic Serbs in Croatia. The 1948 census recorded 543,795, indicating a net loss of about 90,000.

Does that net loss indicate the effects of genocide? Census data quoted in this article show that between the census of 1971 and that of 1981, the recorded number of ethnic Serbs living in Croatia declined from 626,789 to 521, 502, again a nett loss of about 95,000. Obviously no genocide of ethnic Serbs occurred between 1971and 1981.

The decline in the ethnic Serb population of Croatia ( meaning the territory of the post-war Republic of Croatia) between 1931 and 1947 might possibly have been a result of the expulsion or flight of ethnic Serbs to Serbia between 1941 and 1945. It is entirely possible that a large part of the missing ethnic Serbs was to be found among the Serb refugees in Serbia at the end of the war. Some Serbs may also have migrated to Vojvodina after the war, like those who moved there from Bosnia.

Again, the statistical data do not support the claim of a systematic genocide of ethnic Serbs between 1941 and 1945. Perhaps 200,000 might be accepted as a ballpark figure of the number of ethnic Serbs of the wartime Croatian state who died during that period from all causes.

[gorskizdrug]

While it is undeniable that the Pavelic regime in the wartime Croatian state (which Included present-day Bosnia-Herzegovina) used brutal violence on a large scale against persons and groups it considered its enemies, including at the Jasenovac Concentration Camp, it is questionable whether it really had a policy of genocide, ie a policy of physically destroying whole unwanted population groups within its territory.

It is not questionable wheter Pavelic`s regime in Croatia had policy of genocide. You should visit Yad Vashem Holocaust museum website and learn more on genocide which have happened in Croatia.

http://www1.yadvashem.org/odot_pdf/Micr ... 205930.pdf

Croatia

Region of Yugoslavia until spring 1941 and after the end of World War II. Croatia was a puppet state ruled by the fascist Ustasa movement but supervised by the Germans during most of war; and since 1991, a separate state.

David!

Beacuse you are a Jew as you are stating, I will have to point out some things which you probably dont know!
NDH had racial laws it is true, Pavelic was forced to except that, I dont like it, 99,9 % of Croatians did not like it.
But for the cry out loud you Jews are attacking Croatia and Croatians, doesnt matter if it is NDH, Tuđmans Croatia any Croatia as long as it is Croatia to attack!!
During the time of NDH group of sick people ( mentaly sick ) did horrible things to some Jews in Croatia, but I have to point out that so called holocaust in NDH did not happen like it happened elswhere.
In NDH there were many Jews who took catolicism long before WWII, those Jews were incooperated in Croatian society, and they had a big role in Croatian intelectual, economic and sport life. Nothing happened to those Jews.
Many leaders of Ustasha movement had Jewish blood beacuse of above mentioned things!!!
Many officers in Croatian Army ( Domobranstvo ) had Jewish blood beacuse of that too!!!
Bad things happened in Croatia too during WWII, but not on the scale like you people are trying to point out!!
Before couple of weeks I have wrote in some other topic some things and I was removed, I will try again now and here:
Petain murdered many Jews, but you Jews are not attacking French peopel cos of that.
Hungarian Crossed Arrows directly helped Eichman with so called death transports, nobody nothing!!
Codreanus Iron Guard masacred Jews in Bucharest and in Besarabia, you Jews are not even mentioning Romanians!!
Serbia was traditionaly anti-semit society, we can check anti- semit drawings in Serbian newspapers before the WWII, anti- semit drawings! Those drawings never happened in pre war Croatia.
I lived in USA for 3 years, and had contact with many American Jews, common people like myself. Most of them told me that they know for the "negative" role of Croatians during WWII.
I said what about majority European nations? ( Germans excluded ), nobody knew nothing!
What can one think about those matters, specialy if that one is Croatian.
I can only think of conspiracy against Croatia and Croatian people!!
Internatinal Jewish community was always against creating Croatia as a separate state.
I just want to highlight that public opinion among you Jews is very negative towards Croatia, why?





Germany invaded Yugoslavia in April 1941, and divided the country amongst its allies. The region of Croatia was united with Bosnia and Herzegovina into the Independent State of Croatia, and put under the control of the Ustasa movement. Almost immediately, the Ustasa embarked upon a campaign to "purge Croatia of foreign elements." This mainly referred to the Eastern Orthodox Serb minority living in Croatia, greatly despised by the Catholic Ustasa.

More than 500,000 Serbs were murdered in horribly sadistic ways (mostly in the summer of 1941), 250,000 were expelled, and another 200,000 were forced to convert to Catholicism.

Another group of "foreign elements" whom the Ustasa wanted to destroy was Croatia's Jewish population, numbering some 37,000. Just days after taking control of the Croatian government, the Ustasa began issuing anti-Jewish legislation. Over the next few months, Jews were stripped of their property and jobs, their freedom of movement was restricted, and they were forced to wear the Jewish badge.



http://www1.yadvashem.org/odot_pdf/Micr ... 206358.pdf

Jasenovac

Located in Croatia 62 miles south of Zagreb, Jasenovac was Croatia’s largest concentration and extermination camp. Jasenovac, was a network of several sub-camps, established in August 1941 and dissolved in April 1945. The Nazis gave control of Jasenovac to the puppet Croatian government, which was run by the fascist Ustasa movement. A large number of Ustasa members served in the camp, most notably Miroslav Filipovic-Majstorovic, who was notorious for killing prisoners with his bare hands.

In total, about 600,000 people were murdered at Jasenovac, including Serbs, Jews, Gypsies, and Croats who opposed the Ustasa Government. Of that number, some 25,000 of the victims were Jews - most of whom had been brought to Jasenovac before August 1942. (at which point the Germans began deporting the Jews of Croatia to Auschwitz).
Jews were brought to Jasenovac from all over Croatia. Most were killed upon arrival, whilst a small number of skilled professionals were kept alive to work at the camp. Prisoners endured horrible conditions and brutal treatment at the
hands of the Ustasa guards. Near the end of the war, Jasenovac's administration blew up much of the camp and killed most of the prisoners, in an attempt to conceal evidence of the mass murders that took place there.

[Junak1929]

I am not a fan of short posts - Michael Mills - Hats off to you.