Jasenovac

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Re: Jasenovac

#31

Post by David Thompson » 27 May 2009, 06:54

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Re: Jasenovac

#32

Post by paolosilv » 13 Jul 2009, 09:53

Croatia's pre-war Jewish population is put at 37,000 (previous poster). Jewish deaths at Jasenovac are estimated at 16,000 to 20,000. The number of Serb deaths varies wildly, according to all the previous posts. It is stated that Jasenovac was run by Croats, and it is known that the Nazis aided them. It was modeled on Sachsenhausen, a camp which had gas chambers. It is shown that this camp had a crematorium. Youtube videos of the camp show that hundreds of dead bodies were thrown into pits or tossed into the river.

In addition, thousands of Jews died throughout Croatia during this conflict outside of the camp, because by war's end, most of Croatian Jewry was lost.

There is some inconsistencies, however, because Bosnia-Hercegovina was incorporated into Croatian Ustache state; it's not made clear in some reports.

So it is merely semantics to claim that there was no "genocidal policy" towards Jews, Serbs and gypsies as well at Jasenovac. Ante Pavolic and the Ustashe that ran the camp succeeded in destroying more than half of Croatia's Jewish population. In other words, genocide took place. Let's have some respect for the victims.

http://www.jerusalim.org/cd/jasenovac/index_en.html

also: http://pavelic-papers.com/features/jase ... tionc.html


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Junak1929
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Re: Jasenovac

#33

Post by Junak1929 » 10 Nov 2009, 12:07

Could you please show me where I can see images of gas chambers at Jasenovac?

In addition, many Jews were deported from Croatia to Germany for monetary gain.

If a genocide took place, there would have had to be genocidal policy and large numbers proven to have been systematically killed. How did the NDH apparently manage to in some instances kill off 750 thousand Serbs at one camp, but within 4 years did not liquidate a relatively small Jewish population that it committed genocide against? Something doesn't add up.I suggest you read the entire thread and get acquainted with the topics at hand. Also, thepavelicpapers are not to be taken seriously by any means by any logical human being with rational thought.

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Re: Jasenovac

#34

Post by Rob - wssob2 » 24 Nov 2009, 08:06

Genocide was started by the Ustashe as early as July 1941. The victims were first taken to
what were called transit camps, wherefrom only after a few days, to death camps. Transit
camps for the purpose of genocide were formed in Gospic, Bosanski Petrovac, near
Koprivnica (Danica), Loborgrad, Djakovo, Tenja near Osijek, Vinkovci, Vukovar, Sremska
Mitrovica and Zagreb. When already in death camps, the inmates were exposed to torture,
hard labor was forced upon them, they had to face hunger and diseases and wanton killing
was not a varity either. When all the prospective victims were concentrated in death camps
the transit camps were of no avail anymore and their operation was discontinued.
From JEWS OF YUGOSLAVIA 1941 - 1945. VICTIMS OF GENOCIDE AND FREEDOM FIGHTERS By Jasa Romano. (see http://www.jasenovac.org/images/jews_of ... 1_1945.pdf)

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Re: Jasenovac

#35

Post by Didov » 10 Jan 2010, 14:41

This is me and my intepretation of Croat inocence. What we see on this topic is classical pro-Nazi propaganda.

This is interesting topic for me. Until now I was under impression that number of killed in Jasenovac very well exceeded 500.000. Now I see that there were less than 90.000 and that actually Croat government killed only partisan and chetnik collaborationist. So basically people who were killed were not civilians (one can be civilian only if he/she stay neutral in ongoing war) but militant group that helped partisan and chetnik troops thus making them a part of those anti-croatian governoment. So, one might or might not notice that only "civilians" that were killed in Jasenovac were Jews. But Croats didnt want to kill them, ya know, they were ordered to bring them in, and later on they had no choice but to eliminate them because there were no room for "new arrivals". In other word, Jasenovac was not concentration camp but a prison. Few Jews were killed and that could be considered as a collateral damage by today standards. Hey, it was a war.
grom1941 wrote:The serbs and their sympathizers claim that over 1 million of them were killed by Croats of NDH but also claim that 500,000 were displaced as a result of operation storm.
That must make them the greatest breeders in the history of the world, considering there was no mass migration of serbs to Croatia post ww2!
The numbers don't stack up.
Well, in rural places one family had 5-6 kids so yes, Serbian population did managed to heel their wounds pretty fast.
grom1941 wrote:Can you please enlighten us all to which NDH documents you are referring to when you mention "NDH's policy of genocide" ?
No comment.
I would like the above user to please present actual NDH legislation (it does exist I have tons of it, I can even post all of the Racial Laws in NDH which are easily accessible to anyone and everyon a la the Sakic trial which can be accessed on line - translation might take me a while - otherwise, this genocide is all talk of Pavelic's "plans" to do this this and this, but no legal decrees or decelerations in NDH say anything about this, and if he was so against Orthodox anything why was there a Croatian Orthodox Church in NDH as of 1942? How does this go along with his genocidal policy and hate for Serbs ?
I will tell you how. Croatian state was a mess druring WWII. Pavelić had to deal with Italians which wanted to take control of the coast and to control new established state of Croatia. During that time there were major uprising of Serbs because Pavelic ustaše represals on Serb civilians. That uprising should of be contained somehow and the only way was with establishing Croatian Ortodox Church wich was btw controled by the Pavelic regime. Same tactics was used by J.B Tito after the war when he supported the church with his priests (people use to call them red priests).
600 Thousand weren't killed within all of NDH let alone at Jasenovac alone. Simply ridiculous - but I love it - the more you people spread this nonsense the more logical western and educated population is going to stand by and say - wait a minute ....
The ridiculous part is that number of death in Jasenovac is decreasing every year.
That suggests that ethnic Serbs were not sent to Jasenovac as the result of a Croatian Government official policy of genocide directed against the Serbian Orthodox minority of the NDH, but as a result of the ongoing Communist insurgency in the Kozara region. Most probably the ethnic Serb villagers sent to Jasenovac were believed to be supporters of the Communist insurgents (Partisans), and that was the reason for their incarceration, rather rather than specifically their Serbian Orthodox identity.
So, like I said only supporters of Communists were sent to Jasenovac thus making this place rather a prison than a concentration camp.
The article further suggests to me that the Jasenovac complex was not primarily an extermination centre, comparable with German killing centres in Poland such as Chelmno or Treblinka II, but rather a place for holding opponents of the Ustasha regime.
Yeah, just a holding center, like a prison. In addition they had 24/7 room service. Back in that time it was like 5 star hotel.

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Re: Jasenovac

#36

Post by David Thompson » 11 Jan 2010, 00:33

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Re: Jasenovac

#37

Post by michael mills » 11 Jan 2010, 04:10

Yeah, just a holding center, like a prison. In addition they had 24/7 room service. Back in that time it was like 5 star hotel.
The Jasenovac camp was a very brutal place where many prisoners were murdered. Obviously not a 5-star hotel, and no-one has suggested that it was.

However, the statistics of the pre-war and post-war Orthodox population of Croatia and Bosnia do not support the claim that the wartime government of Croatia was pursuing a genocidal policy against that population. It follows therefore that the Jasenovac camp, despite its brutality, was not a place where a policy of genocide was being implemented.

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Re: Jasenovac

#38

Post by Okrojsha » 11 Jan 2010, 05:09

To Michael Mills:

Would you care to explain this in more detail, please? My great-grandfather, a Serb civilian living in today's northern Bosnia, was brutally murdered in Jasenovac (Nov. 1943). Ustasha gang followed this deed by burning the family house and plundering his store afterward. These kinds of posts are nothing but extreme provocation, and I don't understand how you, Junak, and other Ustasha apologists are allowed to write these kinds of statements without being sanctioned/banned already. I believe the forum rules are clear on the attempts at Nazi revisionism & crime denials.

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Re: Jasenovac

#39

Post by David Thompson » 11 Jan 2010, 05:29

Okrojsha -- You wrote:
These kinds of posts are nothing but extreme provocation, and I don't understand how you, Junak, and other Ustasha apologists are allowed to write these kinds of statements without being sanctioned/banned already. I believe the forum rules are clear on the attempts at Nazi revisionism & crime denials.
Most of our international readership aren't from former Yugoslavia, and know very little about the regional history of that area. A few of our posters are quite knowledgable about it, and relatively impartial in their posts. However, a larger number (perhaps a majority) of posters have attempted to use these topics to mount flame wars against one or another national group.

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Re: Jasenovac

#40

Post by Okrojsha » 11 Jan 2010, 19:04

Thank you for your reply David, I have always respected yours and other admin/mod's professionalism on this website. This forum is, and can be, a true goldmine of amazing & relatively unknown information about WWII. I apologize if I appeared to react overly emotionally in my post, it just is frustrating to find fairly intelligent and educated people, who for this reason or the other (sometimes for such abstract reasons as to be born into "perpetrating nation" - as if one can ascribe guilt to entire nation, sometimes out of sheer ignorance) justifying wholesale massacres & genocides or trying to whitewash them. And we all know there are some of them, right here, even on this forum.

I know nothing is black and white, hence giving everybody a benefit of a doubt. However, one should be able to back up such statements about Jasenovac (fairly well researched subject) as not being an instrument of genocide or calling hundreds of thousands of unfortunate souls - "prisoners". If the sole rationale for making someone a "prisoner" (with the only one prescribed sentence - death) is belonging to a wrong ethnic group (Serbs, Jews, Roma, and Croatian communists) this alone is a big giveaway as to the purpose of the camp. No one, but the selected Croatian dissidents/criminals/opposition (and the last "batch" of thousand or so escapees on their way to execution in the late April 1945), were able to leave the camp alive by the time it has been "liberated by Tito's partisans".

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vlad77
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Re: Jasenovac

#41

Post by vlad77 » 02 Sep 2012, 11:22

The Fifth International Conference on Jasenovac, May 24-25, 2011 Banja Luka

You can read Declaration in the following languages: Serbian, English, Russian, Hebrew, French, Italian, German, Spanish.
http://www.jasenovac-donjagradina.org.b ... nocidu.pdf
jasenovac.eu

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Re: Jasenovac

#42

Post by michael mills » 02 Sep 2012, 13:28

The text of the declaration:
The Fifth International Conference on Jasenovac

− Beginning with the fact that in the present-day Republic of Croatia the memory of the genocide committed in the Second World War against the Serbs, Jews and Roma by the government of the Independent State of Croatia, which at that time
also comprised the territory of today’s Bosnia and Herzegovina, especially the Muslim people, dubbed “the flowers of the Croatian people”, as well as a part of Srem, which is in the Republic of Serbia today, has been deliberately and systematically blotted out;

− Bearing it in mind that the casualty rate of this genocide, especially the number of Jasenovac victims, has not only been suppressed in the Croatian public media and quasi-historiographic works, but also radically diminished to a mere 40,000 killed Serbs, Jews and Roma, just as Franjo Tuđman, the first president of the Republic of Croatia, did in his capacity as a historian;

− Having it in mind that some highly influential, very partial persons and groups in Croatia nowadays present the Ustasha, perpetrators of the genocide in the Independent State of Croatia, together with Ante Pavelić, as fighters for Croatia’s national liberation and independence, based on alleged historical and national rights of the Croatian people;

− Given the fact that the historically proven genocide against Serbian, Jewish and Roma people has never been properly denounced by politicians, either in Tito’s communist Yugoslavia or in the presentday Croatia; that unlike German people, who have accepted responsibility for the Holocaust committed in their name by the Nazis, the Croatian nation has never taken responsibility for the genocide committed in its name; and that the Roman Catholic Church has failed to condemn the crimes of genocide perpetrated in the NDH, the way it has condemned crimes committed at other Second World War
execution sites across Europe and apologized for the involvement of some of its members in them;

− Given that the authorities of the People’s i.e. Socialist Republic of Croatia, as a federal unit of the Federal People’s Republic of Yugoslavia, later the Socialist Federal Republic of Yugoslavia, as well as the authorities of the present-day Republic of Croatia, as an independent state, have never offered to pay any reparations to the genocide victims and their
descendants;

− Given the fact that the execution sites at which the victims of this genocide were tortured, massacred and killed and the mass graves into which they were thrown and buried without due respect or a respectable funeral have not been properly marked or protected to this day;

− Since Ante Pavelic and many of his deputy commanders fled the Independent State of Croatia after the war using the so-called rat lines, with the support of some Vatican prelates and clerics, and that many of them have not stood trial in the
country, which would have led the Croatian people to acknowledge the unfathomable crimes committed on its behalf, and to its moral enlightenment and purification;

Bearing all this in mind, the Fifth International Conference on Jasenovac hereby concludes that:

− The Ustasha crimes against the Serbs, Jews and Roma during the Second World War in the Independent State of Croatia were a case of premeditated and planned genocide, as defined by the Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide, adopted by the United Nations General Assembly on the 9th of December 1948;

− In the perpetration of this crime of genocide, only in the Croatian system of concentration camps Jasenovac, used for the extermination of Serbs, Jews, Roma and ideological opponents of the regime, 700,000 Serbs, 23,000 Jews and 80,000
Roma were robbed, tortured, raped and eventually killed by the Independent State of Croatia, simply because they were members of a different nation, religion or race;

− The Independent State of Croatia was the only country during the Second World War which had concentration camps for the extermination of children, located in Stara Gradiška, Jasenovac, Uštica, Jablanac, Jastrebarsko, Rijeka near Jastrebarsko, Gornja Rijeka near Križevci and Lobograd, in which 42,791 Serbian, 5,737 Roma and 3,710 Jewish children
were killed, according to as yet incomplete investigation;

− The crime of genocide perpetrated in the Independent State of Croatia is, by its proportions, equal to the Holocaust committed in Nazi Germany against the Jews;

− During the perpetration of this genocide, many Serbs were forced to change their national, spiritual and historical identity, for the sake of salvation of bare life, and renounce their Orthodox Christian faith and convert to Catholicism under duress and threat of death.

Based on these conclusions, the Conference requests that:

− The Republic of Croatia, as the state of the Croatian people, accept, following a decree by its highest authorities, the historical and every other responsibility for the genocide committed against the Serbs, Jews and Roma by the Independent State of Croatia during the Second World War;

− All sites where crimes were committed be properly marked and protected, and that the memory of the many genocide victims be kept;

− The entire complex of the Jasenovac concentration camps used for the extermination of Serbs, Jews and Roma be preserved and maintained as the victims’ memorial;

− A programme of construction and preservation of the Memorial Area Donja Gradina be drawn up and implemented;

− A single commemoration date be set in the Republic of Croatia, Bosnia and Herzegovina and the Republic
of Serbia for the victims – Serbs, Jews and Roma – of the genocide committed in the Independent State of Croatia;

− The Republic of Croatia determine, within a reasonable period of time, and pay fair reparation to the genocide victims and their descendants.

The Conference expects the international public, especially members of the Second World War antifascist coalition, to support this Declaration on the Independent State of Croatia genocide and so assist in its coming to light after seventy years of waiting.

Banja Luka, 11 June 2011
The above is obviously a political document rather that an historical one, and presumably has been commissioned by the regional government of the Republika Srpska zone of Bosnia-Herzegovina. Whether it also has the imprimatur of the Government of the Serbian Republic is unclear.

The document repeats propaganda dating from the time of the Tito regime, for example the claim that 700,000 Serbs were killed in the Jasenovac camp. That figure is suspected of being grossly inflated; the most cursory glance at the statistics of the Orthodox population of Croatia and Bosnia-Herzegovina immediately before and immediately after the Second World war indicates the impossibility of as many as 700,000 members of that population having perished in the intervening period.

On the other hand, some of the demands made are quite reasonable, for example that "All sites where crimes were committed be properly marked and protected".

However, if a memorial is created, it should be impartial in the message it preaches, and not become a place for the dissemination of biassed propaganda, as was the Jasenovac memorial site under the Tito regime.

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vlad77
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Re: Jasenovac

#43

Post by vlad77 » 02 Sep 2012, 14:25

"This mainly referred to the Eastern Orthodox Serb minority living in Croatia, greatly despised by the Catholic Ustasa. More than 500,000 Serbs were murdered in horribly sadistic ways (mostly in the summer of 1941), 250,000 were expelled, and another 200,000 were forced to convert to Catholicism."

source:
JAD VASHEM - Israel's official memorial to the Jewish victims of the Holocaust
jasenovac.eu

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Re: Jasenovac

#44

Post by Larry D. » 02 Sep 2012, 16:04

It's all about MONEY, Michael. The Serbs want to bleed present-day Croatian pennyless and thus weaken her and leave her open to future exploitation. The figures in the so-called "Declaration" have been thoroughly discredited and no serious, objective historians accept them anymore. Mr. Vlad should be ashamed of himself for spreading discredited propaganda. As for the Yad Vashem connection, well, what can we say.

L.

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Re: Jasenovac

#45

Post by David Thompson » 02 Sep 2012, 18:09

Let's avoid modern politics in this historical discussion. If there are purportedly accurate and inaccurate figures on the death toll of the Jasenovac camp, let's take a look at them and see why they're accurate or inaccurate. Because this topic is particularly susceptible to nationalistic flame wars, all claims and contentions should be sourced.

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