'Homeland' for Germans expelled from modern Poland?
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Re: 'Homeland' for Germans expelled from modern Poland?
For sure myself you don't need to tell that
But there are still enough out there taking the bait again and agin...
Jan-Hendrik
But there are still enough out there taking the bait again and agin...
Jan-Hendrik
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Re: 'Homeland' for Germans expelled from modern Poland?
Jewish-communist propaganda under command of Hilary Minc was convincing citizens of Poland that Germans were very happy about their departure from Poland - PKF ("Polish Newsreel"), October 1946 - "Germans are leaving Poland":Domen121 wrote:Hilary Minc - Jew (mother's surname: Fajersztajn), communist, Stalin's agent, before the war - in 20s and 30s - demanded incorporation of Polish part of Upper Silesia to Germany (sic !), responsible for propaganda and terror.
"Germans are leaving Poland! May they pack their goods and chattels and go away to their homeland."
"We don't persecute them - on the contrary - authorities do everything to make their departure from Poland easier! Humours of departing Germans are the best evidences of this.":
"Vatican officialy protested against brutal treatment of Germans leaving Poland - what a pity that there are no representatives of Vatican here - they would become convinced that there are no reasons for anxiety!"
"These gentlemen are German professors of the University in Wroclaw - our scholars who came here to organize a Polish university, provided them with a truck."
"We don't seek vengeance. We don't remind them how they treated us in dangerous days of September 1944".
"This is how the tragic way of Poles from Warsaw to the camp in Pruszkow looked like (1:57 - 2:05). And this is how Germans are leaving (since 2:06)."
"Heaters in carriages, blankets, bundles, provisions... - we give them everything they need! Good luck! Goodbye forever!":
Re: 'Homeland' for Germans expelled from modern Poland?
You've been blaming half Western- and Eastern-Europe and the Jews within all your postings on this forum 'till now. Is there any point to all this???Jewish-communist propaganda under command of Hilary Minc was convincing citizens of Poland
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Re: 'Homeland' for Germans expelled from modern Poland?
I agree. This is a very peculiar formulation, Domen121:
How did Jewish-communist propaganda differ from regular Polish-communist propaganda? And since communist regimes are typically atheist, what does the term "Jewish" add to the description? Was there a different, Catholic-communist propaganda which should be distinguished from the Jewish-communist one?Jewish-communist propaganda under command of Hilary Minc was convincing citizens of Poland that Germans were very happy about their departure from Poland
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Re: 'Homeland' for Germans expelled from modern Poland?
There is in fact a very clear point to Domen121's formulation of "Jewish-Communist propaganda" in Poland.
The Communist Government imposed on Poland by Stalin consisted disproportionately of Jewish Communists, who had been in exile in the Soviet Union. Stalin had dragged them out of obscurity to be the new "Polish" Government after the German occupiers were driven out of Poland.
To be sure, some leading Polish Communists were ethnic Poles, such as Bierut and Wanda Wasilewska. However, persons of Jewish ethnic origin were markedly over-represented.
In the late 1940s, there was a joke commonly told by Poles:
One Jew = a hero of the ghetto
Two Jews = a chess game
Three Jews = the Polish Government.
Why "three Jews"? There were three Jewish Communists who formed a sort of troika holding leading positions in the Polish Government; two were Hilary Minc and Jakub Berman, I have forgotten the name of the third, but I think he was in charge of rhe security police.
In the inter-war period, the Jews living in Poland had very rarely been Polish nationalists, and in fact most tended to oppose it. In the immediate aftermath of the First World War, leaders of the Jewish community had strongly opposed the creation of an independent Poland, preferring to remain part of Russia with its large Jewish population. Once an independent Polish state had been created, most Jews living in it tended to support political parties espousing Jewish nationalism, either Zionism or Bundism, or Jewish religious separatism, such as Aggudat Yisrael, or else Leftist parties such as the Socialists or Communists. They did not show much loyalty to the Polish state in the form in which it existed at that time.
Furthermore, in the interwar period, Jews living in Poland were not particularly anti-German. They often combined politically with the German minority to achieve their goals.
Thus, in the period immediately after the Second World War, the new Communist Party, and particularly the jewish members of it, seemed to ethnic Poles to be acting in a peculiarly hypocritical way. In essence, the Communist Government had appropriated the agenda of Polish nationalism, in particular that of Endecja, and claimed to be achieving long-held Polish nationalist goals, such as the creation of an ethnically homogeneous Poland without significant minorities, or the "recovery" of former Polish lands in the West and the expulsion of the German population.
To the average ethnic Pole watching the propaganda film posted by Domen121, it must have seemed ironic that here was a bunch of Jews claiming to speak on behalf of Polish nationalism which Jews had previously opposed, that a government claiming to create an ethnically pure "Poland for the Poles" consisted largely of Jews, who had previously bitterly opposed that idea.
It is in that sense that Domen121's formulation of "Jewish Communist propaganda" is meaningful. A Government that was to a large extent not ethnically Polish was trying to curry favour with the Polish population by presenting itself as "untra-Polish", as being embodiment of polish national aspirations.
None of what I have written above is intended to defend Polish nationalism, simply to explain it.
The Communist Government imposed on Poland by Stalin consisted disproportionately of Jewish Communists, who had been in exile in the Soviet Union. Stalin had dragged them out of obscurity to be the new "Polish" Government after the German occupiers were driven out of Poland.
To be sure, some leading Polish Communists were ethnic Poles, such as Bierut and Wanda Wasilewska. However, persons of Jewish ethnic origin were markedly over-represented.
In the late 1940s, there was a joke commonly told by Poles:
One Jew = a hero of the ghetto
Two Jews = a chess game
Three Jews = the Polish Government.
Why "three Jews"? There were three Jewish Communists who formed a sort of troika holding leading positions in the Polish Government; two were Hilary Minc and Jakub Berman, I have forgotten the name of the third, but I think he was in charge of rhe security police.
In the inter-war period, the Jews living in Poland had very rarely been Polish nationalists, and in fact most tended to oppose it. In the immediate aftermath of the First World War, leaders of the Jewish community had strongly opposed the creation of an independent Poland, preferring to remain part of Russia with its large Jewish population. Once an independent Polish state had been created, most Jews living in it tended to support political parties espousing Jewish nationalism, either Zionism or Bundism, or Jewish religious separatism, such as Aggudat Yisrael, or else Leftist parties such as the Socialists or Communists. They did not show much loyalty to the Polish state in the form in which it existed at that time.
Furthermore, in the interwar period, Jews living in Poland were not particularly anti-German. They often combined politically with the German minority to achieve their goals.
Thus, in the period immediately after the Second World War, the new Communist Party, and particularly the jewish members of it, seemed to ethnic Poles to be acting in a peculiarly hypocritical way. In essence, the Communist Government had appropriated the agenda of Polish nationalism, in particular that of Endecja, and claimed to be achieving long-held Polish nationalist goals, such as the creation of an ethnically homogeneous Poland without significant minorities, or the "recovery" of former Polish lands in the West and the expulsion of the German population.
To the average ethnic Pole watching the propaganda film posted by Domen121, it must have seemed ironic that here was a bunch of Jews claiming to speak on behalf of Polish nationalism which Jews had previously opposed, that a government claiming to create an ethnically pure "Poland for the Poles" consisted largely of Jews, who had previously bitterly opposed that idea.
It is in that sense that Domen121's formulation of "Jewish Communist propaganda" is meaningful. A Government that was to a large extent not ethnically Polish was trying to curry favour with the Polish population by presenting itself as "untra-Polish", as being embodiment of polish national aspirations.
None of what I have written above is intended to defend Polish nationalism, simply to explain it.
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Re: 'Homeland' for Germans expelled from modern Poland?
A correction to my previous post:
The third member of the "Jewish troika", along with Jakub Berman and Hilary Minc, was Roman Zambrowski. However, it was Jakub Berman who was in charge of the UB, the political police.
The third member of the "Jewish troika", along with Jakub Berman and Hilary Minc, was Roman Zambrowski. However, it was Jakub Berman who was in charge of the UB, the political police.
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Re: 'Homeland' for Germans expelled from modern Poland?
The late 1940s are proof of how Jews are grateful for all the aid the received from Poles during german occupation. Had Goebbels been alive in 1950 he'd have great new material for his propaganda about nature of the jewry.
Re: 'Homeland' for Germans expelled from modern Poland?
Had Goebbels been alive and producing propaganda about the 'nature of Jewry' in 1950 there would have been very few Jews left in Europe to propagandize about.cortodanzigese wrote:The late 1940s are proof of how Jews are grateful for all the aid the received from Poles during german occupation. Had Goebbels been alive in 1950 he'd have great new material for his propaganda about nature of the jewry.
Mods: do we really have to put up with this sort of nasty stuff?
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Re: 'Homeland' for Germans expelled from modern Poland?
No, we don't have to talk about "nasty stuff", but it is not me who started this discussion!
Still, in Poland there is ongoing debate, why Jews hate Poles so much, despite the relief effort provided by the Poles...
Not my nationality not my problem. I only note the phenomenon.
edit: Goebbels alive hypothetically in 1950 does not mean Third Reich actually victorious.
Still, in Poland there is ongoing debate, why Jews hate Poles so much, despite the relief effort provided by the Poles...
Not my nationality not my problem. I only note the phenomenon.
edit: Goebbels alive hypothetically in 1950 does not mean Third Reich actually victorious.
Re: 'Homeland' for Germans expelled from modern Poland?
Michael Mills said:
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?f=53&t=94928
I remind Michael of my post:Once an independent Polish state had been created, most Jews living in it tended to support political parties espousing Jewish nationalism, either Zionism or Bundism, or Jewish religious separatism, such as Aggudat Yisrael, or else Leftist parties such as the Socialists or Communists.
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?f=53&t=94928
Jews in Interwar Poland Did Not Vote Communist
by henryk on February 3rd, 2006, 3:06 pm
Contrary to popular belief, few Polish Jews voted for Communist parties in Interwar Poland.
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Re: 'Homeland' for Germans expelled from modern Poland?
Michael -- You wrote:
The discussion here is on the issue of a homeland for displaced Germans. Consequently, remarks involving Jewish communists are only marginally relevant to the topic, if they're relevant at all. Furthermore, it looks like an effort to change the subject from the expulsion of ethnic Germans to bigoted notions of "Judaeo-Bolshevism." Let's start discussing the topic at hand.
This observation is just as true of Polish or any other kind of communists, supposedly representing the idea of international solidarity while engaged in ethnic repression. So what?To the average ethnic Pole watching the propaganda film posted by Domen121, it must have seemed ironic that here was a bunch of Jews claiming to speak on behalf of Polish nationalism which Jews had previously opposed, that a government claiming to create an ethnically pure "Poland for the Poles" consisted largely of Jews, who had previously bitterly opposed that idea.
The discussion here is on the issue of a homeland for displaced Germans. Consequently, remarks involving Jewish communists are only marginally relevant to the topic, if they're relevant at all. Furthermore, it looks like an effort to change the subject from the expulsion of ethnic Germans to bigoted notions of "Judaeo-Bolshevism." Let's start discussing the topic at hand.
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Re: 'Homeland' for Germans expelled from modern Poland?
The broader topic is the expulsion of ethnic Germans from territory annexed by Poland after the Second World War, with specific reference to the repercussions of that event being felt today.
As I have pointed out, the expansion of Poland to the west by annexing the eastern territory of Germany had long been the aim of Polish nationalists, particularly of Endecja and the "western school" of Polish nationalism. That aim had previously been rejected by the Polish leftist parties, the Socialists and the Communists; it had also not been supported by Jews living in Poland, who were focussed on specifically Jewish nationalist issues, such as minority rights within Poland, or the Zionist ideal.
The Polish nationalist aim, the expulsion of the German population from the territories annexed by Poland, which the subject of this thread, was achieved by a government of Poland that was
(A) a coalition of Communists and Socialists; and
(B) disproportionately composed of persons of Jewish origin.
It was not achieved by Polish nationalists, or indeed primarily by ethnic Poles.
I regard that fact as a great historical irony, which should be contemplated dispassionately without getting upset about the concept of "Judeo-Bolshevism", which is no more of a bogey than the concept of "Judeo-Christianity".
As I have pointed out, the expansion of Poland to the west by annexing the eastern territory of Germany had long been the aim of Polish nationalists, particularly of Endecja and the "western school" of Polish nationalism. That aim had previously been rejected by the Polish leftist parties, the Socialists and the Communists; it had also not been supported by Jews living in Poland, who were focussed on specifically Jewish nationalist issues, such as minority rights within Poland, or the Zionist ideal.
The Polish nationalist aim, the expulsion of the German population from the territories annexed by Poland, which the subject of this thread, was achieved by a government of Poland that was
(A) a coalition of Communists and Socialists; and
(B) disproportionately composed of persons of Jewish origin.
It was not achieved by Polish nationalists, or indeed primarily by ethnic Poles.
I regard that fact as a great historical irony, which should be contemplated dispassionately without getting upset about the concept of "Judeo-Bolshevism", which is no more of a bogey than the concept of "Judeo-Christianity".
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Re: 'Homeland' for Germans expelled from modern Poland?
Hi Michael,
You write, "It was not achieved by Polish nationalists, or indeed primarily by ethnic Poles."
Quite apart from the fact that this is an unsupported premise of doubtful accuracy, given the few Polish Jews who remained to apparently expell the Germans on their own, why would it matter who did the expulsions if they were justifiable?
These eastern territories were Germany's only territorial loss of pre-war turf.
Without their loss, Germany would have suffered no enduring punishment for a war its leadership had unleashed and which killed (amongst many others) some six million Polish citizens, only a tiny proportion of them combatants.
Of course, this enduring punishment fell on only one specific segment of the German population, but I would suggest that, as the loss of these eastern lands was a punishment for the whole of Germany, it was and is up to other Germans to compensate their displaced fellow countrymen.
I see no great injustice in the transfer of territory. However, the manner of the expulsions and the accompanying deaths are another matter.
Cheers,
Sid.
You write, "It was not achieved by Polish nationalists, or indeed primarily by ethnic Poles."
Quite apart from the fact that this is an unsupported premise of doubtful accuracy, given the few Polish Jews who remained to apparently expell the Germans on their own, why would it matter who did the expulsions if they were justifiable?
These eastern territories were Germany's only territorial loss of pre-war turf.
Without their loss, Germany would have suffered no enduring punishment for a war its leadership had unleashed and which killed (amongst many others) some six million Polish citizens, only a tiny proportion of them combatants.
Of course, this enduring punishment fell on only one specific segment of the German population, but I would suggest that, as the loss of these eastern lands was a punishment for the whole of Germany, it was and is up to other Germans to compensate their displaced fellow countrymen.
I see no great injustice in the transfer of territory. However, the manner of the expulsions and the accompanying deaths are another matter.
Cheers,
Sid.
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Re: 'Homeland' for Germans expelled from modern Poland?
Aha, Mr Guttridge is an admirer of collective guilt
Than you better pray that Great Britain will never get the bill for its colonial behaviour presented
Jan-Hendrik
Than you better pray that Great Britain will never get the bill for its colonial behaviour presented
Jan-Hendrik
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Re: 'Homeland' for Germans expelled from modern Poland?
Transfer of London to the Kenyans, perhaps?I see no great injustice in the transfer of territory. However, the manner of the expulsions and the accompanying deaths are another matter.