Discussions on the Holocaust and 20th Century War Crimes. Note that Holocaust denial is not allowed. Hosted by David Thompson.
User avatar
bf109 emil
Posts: 3627
Joined: 25 Mar 2008 21:20
Location: Youngstown Alberta Canada

Re: Oradour-sur-Glane

Post by bf109 emil » 17 Aug 2009 07:34

Rob - wssob2 wrote:Hi bf109emil,
.if a guard is that poor of a soldier to legate the difference between an escaping prisoner and women and children then IMHO he must be a soldier of extremely poor quality or lacking any training in the minimalist or none what so ever...was the German soldiers this poor and shoddy to not tell the difference?
It was something far more sinister than incompetence - if you get a chance, read up on "Bandenkämpf" as a WWII German counterinsurgency theory and you'll quickly see how killing innocent civilians was a premeditated and quite deliberate tactic.
Thank you rob and to be honest a lot of times books listed on here to read are hard to obtain without purchasing, albeit i will look for this....all I was saying or question to this incident is as the war grew older, numerous troops in France used by Germany and originally placed their were from other countries or conscripts. Some maybe not as trained or as elite as say some of the veteran and battle tested Wehrmacht and Waffen SS troops which might have scene battle for a number of years...It is often scene and argued that Germany had some of the best fighting troops bar none (will not challenge this or please lets not debate here) all i was referring to is if and perhaps women and kids had been shot in this hostile and obvious hectic and adrenaline rush of this event, then i can see green troops or ones not properly briefed as to there intended roles or along the lines of what or if to shoot...to be honest i can see mistakes taking place, especially if this was the first type of this happening by these Waffen SS soldiers...sure i have no doubt as to this maybe and surely happening in the east, but if these troops where new to this sort of thing and maybe it was a first time in doing this type of work, in all instances i can see both mistake or tragedy such as shooting women and kids occurring....hence my questioning as to the military capabilities of these Waffen SS troops as being sinister or a case of poor briefing and the expectations they where to follow if and had things not gone according to plan...which it seems had done so from discussion of ordnance or munitions, etc. in the church

Posts: 415
Joined: 23 Jan 2008 18:08
Location: FRANCE

Re: Oradour-sur-Glane

Post by PATRICK CHARRON » 22 Sep 2012 13:10


I read a lot about the events concerning Oradour and many contradictory things without ever having a definitive answer to the question "Why Oradour sur Glane."
Error between "Oradour sur Glane Vayres and Oradour know?
Michel Baury made an "Essai" not yet published and gives some answers.
He has done research on the ground and gathered evidence, mainly on the capture and death of Helmut Kampfe and events in Saint Junien that preceded the massacre.
I put the following link, the text is in French, but what comes out new and has never been published could give one of the keys.
There is another Oradour Oradour Linards, 25 kms east of Limoges which was used as shelter by FTP leader Guingouin .
Moreover, it is said that Guingouin met Kämpfe before giving the order to shot him.
Clarification also on circumstances surrounding the capture and death of Kämpfe and the place of his burial.
It’s a very difficult subject to discuss in France and a lot of people like it to be closed.


Posts: 250
Joined: 04 Jan 2014 15:08
Location: EU

Re: Oradour-sur-Glane

Post by lartiste » 11 Jan 2019 11:34

Rob and Harro

You mentioned:
"Der Führer’s" war diary for June 10th mentions "the town of Oradour-sur-Glane was surrounded, and ammunition found stored in almost every house. Results: 548 enemy dead. Our casualties: 1 dead, 1 wounded." Even the most casual student of guerrilla warfare would notice the striking difference in casualties. So we have a 500:1 ratio of French/German casualties, and no documentation of specific amounts of seized ammunition or weapons. Sounds like something’s fishy with the body count – a la "If it’s dead and French it’s Maquis"
Do you know anything about 1 wounded and 1 dead, what happened and who they were? Since it is only hard evidence to be confirmed from statement of Otto Kahn. I do not trust him, because to me it looks like he is only covering himself, but would like to confirm whether anything was true .... .

Posts: 250
Joined: 04 Jan 2014 15:08
Location: EU

Re: Oradour-sur-Glane

Post by lartiste » 06 Jun 2019 14:17

Heinz Bart (15.10. 1920 Gransee - 6.8.2007 Gransee). From 1940 h became member of Schupo in Protektorat. On July 24, 1942he participated as member of firing squad in mass murder of 33 inhabitants of village Ležáky and he also participated in mass murders July 2 (40 victims) - member of firing squad, July 9 (15 victims) and June 9 (4 victims).

On February 10, 1943 he joined Waffen SS and in November 1943 transferred to division Das Reich, regiment Der Führer. Participated in Normandy campaign and lost part of leg. In early eighties there was trial against Barth in Eastern Germany during which he admits that he was participating on Oradour. He claimed that during the meeting with officers of 3. Kompanie Sylvester Stadler ordered the murder of all inhabitants and destruction of entire village.

Source: Bestie. Československo a stíhání nacistických zločinců, Vojtěch Kyncl, Nakl.Lidové noviny : 2019, ISBN978-80-7422-668-7

Return to “Holocaust & 20th Century War Crimes”