Fred Leuchter

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Scott Smith
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Sweeping Conclusions...

#31

Post by Scott Smith » 06 Feb 2003, 12:00

Xanthro wrote:
Scott wrote:Do you have any process-engineering to support that conclusion? We are talking about a half a million gassed in a basement at fantastic rates--and nary a trace of HCN left over; whereas in the fumigation cubicles (the ones without heating and gas-recirculation, the blue-staining on the walls is obvious even on the OUTSIDE of the structures.
Must you constantly play the head in the sand game and go over the same material time and time again. What you hope there is someone knew who may fall for this idiocy of yours?
Your explanations are not convincing, and besides, who asked and answered these questions before Leuchter? Certainly not the Holo-Defenders guarding the Holo-Prize.
Simple fact is that HCN lethality is based on basal metabolic rate. The faster the BMR the faster the death.
No sh*t.
Warm blooded animals die quite quickly at very low concentrations. HCN in a 300 PPM will kill a human with half and hour.
Without a means of warming the Zyklon and recirculating the air the concentrations needed to kill quickly would be overkill or locally "hot" in areas--yet there is NO blue staining anywhere.
Of course there is more Prussian blue staining in a fumigation area, the concentration was much higher and for longer periods of time, and the areas weren't washed down after use.
Washing would only dissolve the HCN and produce streaks, and there would still be hot-areas that got stained, especially if the bodies could not be removed immediately. (Maybe the Sonderkommando did this anyway just to fool us.) But they could not empty the gaschamber fast because they could not cremate the bodies fast. Simple Sherlock. The moisture from the bodies would dissolve the HCN and keep it in contact with surfaces longer. Yet there are only traces of HCN in the morgue, let alone any staining anywhere.
You should find Prussian blue there, and you shouldn't find it anywhere else.
Well, a priori reasoning at best. Explain then why the gaschambers at Majdanek are BLUE, even on the outside! Or weren't the gaschambers at Majdanek homicidal? Go for it, Denier!
Of course, you already know this, because you've already been informed, but you cling to your quasi religious belief and hope to fool others.
This is why I take an aggressive tone with you. I said sweeping conclusions went well beyond the evidence, but you don't seem to get it. And unless you can invent fantasy rates of body-disposal with the crematoria then you have not answered this problem either except with a knee-jerk. The puck gets through anyway.

Some Revisionists did try an experiment on themselves with Cyanosil, the modern brand-name of Zyklon-B, but I can't vouch for its authenticity. It does pose an interesting problem without heat to warm the granules to release the gas rapidly and a recirculation system to mix the gas with the air to uniformly control the concentration. (This video clip is 8.47MB.)

CLICK for Zyklon Experiment! Image
:)
Last edited by Scott Smith on 06 Feb 2003, 14:06, edited 1 time in total.

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Roberto
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#32

Post by Roberto » 06 Feb 2003, 13:49

Why, Smith, again trying to sell Rudolf's "blue stains" baloney ?

This reminds me of an old Codoh essay of mine regarding which I asked for your comments on several occasions, without ever getting any feedback. Perhaps now you can try to tell me what, if anything, is wrong with my assessment. Here it is, once again:

What did Leuchter and Rudolf actually do?

They compared the cyanide content of material from the delousing chambers that exhibits blue staining and material from homicidal chambers that does not exhibit this staining. They showed that the blue staining on the walls of the delousing chambers could very well be a cyanide compound.

What does this prove?

According to Leuchter and Rudolf, it proves that the walls of the delousing chambers were exposed to HCN whereas the walls of the homicidal gas chambers were not.

Is this correct?

It might be if

a) The exposure of the walls of the homicidal gas chambers to HCN would necessarily lead to the formation of blue stains under the reported conditions of the gassings; and

b) There were no significant traces of HCN on any parts of the walls of the homicidal gas chambers as opposed to parts of the walls of the delousing chambers under similar conditions.

As to a):

According to a study by Alich, Howarth, and Johnson cited by Rudolf in his report, “Prussian blue” forms only at very high concentrations of CN- ions, which means that too much humidity will “spoil” the reaction that leads to the formation of “Prussian blue”. There are reasons to assume that the concentration of such ions was much lower in the homicidal gas chambers than in the delousing chambers. First of all, the level of humidity in the former is likely to have been higher at the outset due to perspiration and exhalation from the tightly-packed victims. Second, due to the absorption of most of the HCN by the lungs of the fast-breathing victims the concentration of HCN liable to form “Prussian blue” in reaction with the existing moisture was much lower than in the delousing facilities. Third, the homicidal gas chambers were hosed down after each gassing, either before or after the bodies had been moved to the cremation room proper or to a morgue-like room adjacent to the gassing room that some of the crematoria seem to have had. This is confirmed by several witnesses: Henry Tauber, Filip Müller, Dr. Miklos Nyszili, Daniel Bennahmias, Szlama Dragon. The resulting dilution would have reduced the concentration of CN- ions far below the minimum necessary for the formation of “Prussian blue”.

Prussian blue formation is extremely sensitive to concentration and also to pH. Very small effects could tip the balance between whether Prussian blue forms or not. Alich et al. found a strong pH dependence to the reaction. The presence of human beings in the gas chambers could also help tip the balance. CO2 is an acid anhydride and there would have been a lot of it in the homicidal chambers. An acid anhydride is a substance that increases the acidity of a solution when it becomes solvated. Even atmospheric concentrations of CO2 (at 360 ppm today, about 330 ppm then) are sufficient to cause pure rain water to have a pH of 5.6. Human beings exhale about 4% CO2, so the pH could be quite a bit lower. For example at 2% CO2 the pH would be below 4.8. Low pH inhibits the reaction. Additionally, a lower pH will drive the HCN from solution, making the CN- more dilute at the outset.

The above shows that formation of “Prussian blue” in buildings exposed to HCN is by no means a must. Markiewicz et al.(see below) were not able to produce such pigments in experiments with HCN and building materials. Additionally, Rudolf did an experiment in which he exposed a brick to HCN and yet found no detectable level of cyanides within the sensitivity of his analytical method. These failures to produce Prussian blue are sufficient to demonstrate that its formation at detectable levels is not a necessary result of exposure to HCN.

Leuchter’s and Rudolf’s theories have therefore failed on the first count.

As to b):

The study performed by Jan Markiewicz, Wojciech Gubala and Jerzy Labedz of the Institute of Forensic Research, Cracow revealed the following traces of cyanide ions (CN-) at samples taken from various buildings of the former Auschwitz-Birkenau complex (values in µg/kg, respectively the lowest and highest concentrations found in the various samples of each building analyzed):

Ruins of homicidal gas chambers
Crematorium I : 28 – 292
Crematorium II: 8 – 640
Crematorium III: 8 – 68
Crematorium IV: 12 – 500
Crematorium V: 12 – 244
Facilities for the fumigation of prisoners’ clothes
Auschwitz Block nº 1 0 – 4
Auschwitz Block nº 3 0-900
Birkenau Bath House 0-840
Dwelling Accommodations, which Were Probably Fumigated with Zyklon B Only Once
(In Connection With Typhoid Epidemic in 1942)
Auschwitz Block 3 0 – 0
Auschwitz Block 8 0 – 0
Birkenau Block 3 0 – 0

The above clearly shows that, while no concentrations of cyanide ions were detected in the samples taken from buildings not used for either delousing or homicidal gassing, the concentrations detected in samples taken from homicidal gas chambers were not much lower than those detected in samples taken from delousing facilities. This in turn indicates that both the delousing chambers and the homicidal gas chambers were exposed to significant quantities of HCN over longer periods of time. In the delousing chambers, where HCN was not absorbed by human lungs and remained in contact with the walls for up to 24 hours at a time, the concentration of cyanide ions was necessarily higher. Another factor to be considered is that the undamaged delousing facilities were not as exposed to weather conditions as the ruins of the homicidal gas chambers.
The differences would have been higher if samples containing blue staining had been included, but such results would not have been telling.
Why? Because the “Prussian blue” formed in a building exposed to hydrogen cyanide will remain present at high concentration while other compounds of cyanide will gradually weather away. This means that it is no surprise if buildings with blue staining have more cyanides than those without. It also means that comparing a sample with blue stains to a sample without them is like comparing apples to oranges, because concentrations of HCN equal at the outset are likely to remain present much longer in the former than in the latter, which in turn means that conclusions drawn from concentrations of HCN residues in samples with “Prussian blue” on the one hand and samples without that staining on the other are worthless. Only by comparing samples without Prussian blue which were subject to similar conditions after their exposure to the substance it could be reliably determined if both had been exposed to significant quantities of HCN. This the researchers definitely established to have been the case at both the delousing and the homicidal gassing chambers and not to have been the case at other buildings of the Auschwitz-Birkenau complex.

Leuchter’s and Rudolf’s theories have thus also failed on the second count.

Conclusion: Contrary to the assertions of both Leuchter and Rudolf, the presence of blue staining on the walls of the delousing chambers and its absence on the ruins of the homicidal gas chambers does not speak against the latter having been exposed to significant quantities of HCN.


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Scott Smith
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Megadeath...

#33

Post by Scott Smith » 06 Feb 2003, 14:01

Roberto wrote:
Conclusion: Contrary to the assertions of both Leuchter and Rudolf, the presence of blue staining on the walls of the delousing chambers and its absence on the ruins of the homicidal gas chambers does not speak against the latter having been exposed to significant quantities of HCN.
It all depends upon how "significant" is consistent with mega-mass-murder, doesn't it? Lots of questions--precious few answers. Besides, I said that the Leuchter Report "went beyond the evidence" and the Rudolf Report was "inconclusive," didn't I? But I applaud the willingness to investigate and challenge the Holo-genre just the same. If not they, then who will? Nobody half-sane according to Morris.
:)

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Re: Megadeath...

#34

Post by Roberto » 06 Feb 2003, 14:46

Scott Smith wrote:
Roberto wrote:
Conclusion: Contrary to the assertions of both Leuchter and Rudolf, the presence of blue staining on the walls of the delousing chambers and its absence on the ruins of the homicidal gas chambers does not speak against the latter having been exposed to significant quantities of HCN.
It all depends upon how "significant" is consistent with mega-mass-murder, doesn't it?
Well, 1 mg per kilogram of body weight would have been sufficient. I'll let you calculate how much that is for ca. one million gassing victims. Then you may try to demonstrate that a backward calculation from the traces detected by Markiewicz et al, considering the time and exposure to elements, would not result in at least such a quantity. Good luck.
Scott Smith wrote:Lots of questions--precious few answers. Besides, I said that the Leuchter Report "went beyond the evidence" and the Rudolf Report was "inconclusive," didn't I? But I applaud the willingness to investigate and challenge the Holo-genre just the same. If not they, then who will? Nobody half-sane according to Morris.
:)
Blah, blah, blah.

Again trying to run away from the challenge, Mr. Smith ?

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#35

Post by Erik » 06 Feb 2003, 17:09

Roberto wrote:
What did Leuchter and Rudolf actually do?
Can “the actual deed” of a couple of deniers be separated from their "actual" persons?

From their clueless ignorances, moronic mendacities, pathetical ineptitudes, indelible imbecilities etc etc?

Can they “actually do” something that is not tainted with these personal shortcomings?

A Swedish (ex)politician (Per Ahlmark) once described his amazement that a nasty opportunist fellow traveller like the conductor Herbert von Karajan (as a member of NSDAP, he is alleged to have conducted Beethoven in Paris during the occupation, dressed in a SS uniform) could be so indisputably able to beat time to an orchestra!

He described it to Holocaust survivor Prof. Georg Klein, who patiently (according to Ahlmark) explained to him that personal nastiness does not necessarly exclude an ability to “actually do” a thing or two in a competent way.

This was not at all self-evident to Ahlmark, and perhaps the avid reader of this thread on “Fred Leuchter” needs some assurance on this point, too.

Great Jewish conductors, from Levi through Mahler and Klemperer to Barenboim and Levine, have been able to both admire and conduct the operas of the antisemite Wagner, probably because they have been able to separate the “nasty fellow” from his “actual deeds”, his music.

The same applies to Fred Leuchter : he can be a ridiculous and naive nerd etc etc privately , and a most competent “Mr. Death” when it comes to the handling of HCN in small spaces.

At the same time there is no doubt that there is a “market” for Ad Hominem considerations.

The composer Wagner’s pleading for a “German Art” emanating from German Blood and Soil on racial “grounds” had perhaps an origin in a desire for a greater share of the market, since it would exclude or at least lessen the competition from certain successful Jewish composers (Meyerbeer, Havely, Offenbach). He had taken some beating at the Paris “opera market” from those in the beginning of his career.

And, in a similar vein, a concentration on Leuchter’s personal shortcomings will perhaps “catch” on what he “actually did”, and infect the consideration of his achievements.

I haven’t seen the film “Mr Death”, but according to the description of it by some posters above, it seems that Errol Morris had some trouble to get the “Ad Hominem” message to “catch”.

Will the rest of this thread have the same trouble?

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#36

Post by Qvist » 06 Feb 2003, 17:10

Hello Scott

Sorry for saying this, but I am not going to comment on your usual drivel about Holo-believers and compulsory truth as it does not correspond to anything else than your own closed-circuit mental processes.

Not that your substantive points are much better. The staining point has been adressed before, for example at one of the links in this thread, which I think you probably are already well aware of. As for required coding in documents, why don't you have a look at the scan provided by Hans further up and tell me what you have to decode in order to interpret it as dealing with heating and circulation.

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#37

Post by Dan » 06 Feb 2003, 17:31

David, the fact that Fred wasn't licensed was no big deal. That kind of thing is almost never inforced here in the states unless there is a complaint. Contract law is so complicated it is universally ignored by everyone, at least as to the requirements of legal details. Here in Ca., if you hire me to build a fence along the side of your house, at it costs 301 dollars, I don't even want to get into the forms and disclaimers involved, and nobody does them.

My understanding is that in Mass only about half the engineers were licensed. As Qvist implied, nothing would have happened to him if he hadn't offended some powerfull people.

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#38

Post by Roberto » 06 Feb 2003, 18:14

Erik wrote:Roberto wrote:
What did Leuchter and Rudolf actually do?
Can “the actual deed” of a couple of deniers be separated from their "actual" persons?
Read before driveling, philosopher.

You may find out that what I wrote referred not to their personality, qualifications or motivations, but to what their "studies" achieved/demonstrated or failed to achieve/demonstrate.

No "ad hominem" to be found there.

But you can choose for yourself the one you think fits you best.

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#39

Post by David Thompson » 06 Feb 2003, 18:39

Dan -- I understand your point. Usually, though, people who build a fence for you won't mislead you about their qualifications. What bothered me about Leuchter was the scale of the misrepresentations, namely his admissions:

"2. that while in Massachusetts and while unregistered as a professional engineer, I have:

a. represented myself as an engineer able to consult in areas of engineering concerning execution technology; moreover, I formed a corporation which one of the purposes was to consult in all areas of engineering;

b. represented myself as Chief Engineer of Fred A. Leuchter Associates, Inc., a Massachusetts Corporation, in letters to Massachusetts businesses and Federal and State departments and agencies, including Alpha Analytical Laboratories, Ace Surgical Inc., Massachusetts Division of Food and Drug, and the Federal Drug Enforcement Agency;

c. represented myself as Chief Engineer in letters and proposals I sent to correctional institutions in other states, including, but not limited to, New Jersey and Alabama;

d. represented myself as Chief Engineer and have rendered engineering opinions in letters and affidavits which I have submitted for filing in state and federal courts outside of Massachusetts . . . ."

The suggestion here is that Mr. Leuchter didn't hesitate to overstate his qualifications, and did not hesitate to overstate his conclusions either, as Scott pointed out when he stated: "I said that the Leuchter Report "went beyond the evidence"."

What do you think about people who are trying to make a point so hard that they heavily and noisily overstate their case? It's only human nature not to trust them once you find out. In my opinion, that kind of behavior isn't healthy skepticism, it's a form of lying.

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#40

Post by Xanthro » 06 Feb 2003, 19:04

Your explanations are not convincing, and besides, who asked and answered these questions before Leuchter? Certainly not the Holo-Defenders guarding the Holo-Prize.
Nothing could ever convince you, because Holocaust denial is your Catholicism.

Why would anyone care to ask a question that is self evident? It's like asking why the sky is blue over Poland.

People asked the question before, they just weren't STUPID enough to put it in print and then pretend it had some probative value when it does not.

This is right up your alley of claiming it was the Holocaust deniers who debunked the 4 million Aus. figure. Equally laughable.
Quote:
Simple fact is that HCN lethality is based on basal metabolic rate. The faster the BMR the faster the death.
No sh*t.
Now take this knowledge you've granted is true, and apply it. What has a higher BMR a human or a louse?

That's right a human, which means less HCN is needed to equal a lethal dose.

Thank you for granting the very premise to proves the conclusion you deny in your first paragraph. Of course, this is a standard operating procedure of yours, blanketly deny the only conclusions that can be reached based on the very same evidence you grant is so blatantly true that the only response can be "No sh*t".

Quote:
Warm blooded animals die quite quickly at very low concentrations. HCN in a 300 PPM will kill a human with half and hour.
Without a means of warming the Zyklon and recirculating the air the concentrations needed to kill quickly would be overkill or locally "hot" in areas--yet there is NO blue staining anywhere.
Bullsh*t. While there would be areas of differing concentrations, just because an area may have 5,000 ppm doesn't mean the formation of Prussian blue will occur. Length of exposure and PH is as important as concentration.

In fumigation the length of exposure to HCN is measured in hours to days, in homocidal use it is measured in minutes.
Quote:
Of course there is more Prussian blue staining in a fumigation area, the concentration was much higher and for longer periods of time, and the areas weren't washed down after use.
Washing would only dissolve the HCN and produce streaks, and there would still be hot-areas that got stained, especially if the bodies could not be removed immediately. (Maybe the Sonderkommando did this anyway just to fool us.) But they could not empty the gaschamber fast because they could not cremate the bodies fast. Simple Sherlock. The moisture from the bodies would dissolve the HCN and keep it in contact with surfaces longer. Yet there are only traces of HCN in the morgue, let alone any staining anywhere.
Maybe it has escaped you, but concentration of HCN isn't limited to gas, when you wash something down, the concentration is reduced because it is not diluted with water.

Go look up diluted. Learn it. You still won't apply it, because your religious beliefs would be threatened.

Moisture from their bodies? What, dead people sweat in the denier world? They continue to breath? The only significant moisture that would be present would be the urination that accompanies death, the acidity of which would prevent any formation of another acidic compound.

Once the chamber is opened, even without active ventilation the concentration in of airborne HCN would quickly dilute, (I hope you looked up the word), where exactly is the rest of the HCN supposed to be? Trapped under the bodies on the pissed covered floor? No acidic formation there.

Magicially on the walls from the undiscovered Denier Force? That's it, you've discovered the missing dark matter that binds the universe together, the Denier Force.

Quote:
You should find Prussian blue there, and you shouldn't find it anywhere else.
Well, a priori reasoning at best. Explain then why the gaschambers at Majdanek are BLUE, even on the outside! Or weren't the gaschambers at Majdanek homicidal? Go for it, Denier!
While you have the dictionary out looking up diluted, I hope you looked up a priori too, you continually use it incorrectly.

If you've already put your dictionary away, I'll give you a simple definition, whenever you make an argument, it's a priori. There, I've saved you some time.

Why could some gas chambers be stained and others not, because they used different concentrations of HCN. See, unlike you, most people actually take experiences and learn from them. They the modify their actions and behavior based on this new knowledge.

At times your beloved Nazis used higher concentrations of HCN because they mimicked the procedures used to kill lice. Then they learned that people died much more quickly, and lesser concentrations were needed.

Plus, a homocidal building could be used for fumigation purposes, thus have a much greater likelyhood of Prussian blue staining.

See, your contention is that no Prussian Blue, no deaths. That is what is in dispute. You could use a concentration for homocidal purposes that would cause the staining, therefore staining COULD occur, but it NEED NOT appear, since a concentration and duration of exposure much lower than needed for the threshold of formation is lethal to humans.
Quote:
Of course, you already know this, because you've already been informed, but you cling to your quasi religious belief and hope to fool others.
This is why I take an aggressive tone with you. I said sweeping conclusions went well beyond the evidence, but you don't seem to get it. And unless you can invent fantasy rates of body-disposal with the crematoria then you have not answered this problem either except with a knee-jerk. The puck gets through anyway.
The sweeping conclusions that you continue to defend. Again, that's your SOP, say something is over reaching, then defend each and every conclusion reached by that same article.

The only fantasy is the one in your mind. You and your ilk like to huddle together in some incestous circle of mental reinforcement as you chant your mantle, Nazis couldn't have killed that many Jews, Nazis couldn't have killed that many Jews.

You and your silly friends are the only ones who think some fantasy rate of body disposal is an issue. It isn't. Often the body disposal backed up, and people in the surrounding areas complained of the stink, much like rational people complain of the stench your arguments put off.
Some Revisionists did try an experiment on themselves with Cyanosil, the modern brand-name of Zyklon-B, but I can't vouch for its authenticity. It does pose an interesting problem without heat to warm the granules to release the gas rapidly and a recirculation system to mix the gas with the air to uniformly control the concentration. (This video clip is 8.47MB.)
You can't vouch for it, yet you link it. What a waste.

Second, modern fumigants are much different than those of WWII, the binding agents are much stronger to inhibit the gassification of the substances because this is safer, thus, it has no bearing to the facts in question.

Plus, does anyone seriously consider that a denier would ever make known any results that didn't favor his already reached conclusion?

Xanthro

Dan
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#41

Post by Dan » 06 Feb 2003, 19:11

Usually, though, people who build a fence for you won't mislead you about their qualifications
David, I'm on my way to work, but I took the time out to go to the service adds in our local paper, and of the first 10 adds in areas requiring a license, 5 opperate illegally.

But we've both made our points, and keep up the great job you're doing as moderator.

Best
Dan

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#42

Post by Erik » 06 Feb 2003, 23:26

A Swedish novel writer (W. Moberg) has described his teenage disappointment when he bought a copy of Kierkegaard’s “Diary of a Seducer” for his hard earned money, in expectance of some erotic titillations promised by the title….

A title like “Mr. Death” perhaps attracts or attracted misunderstanders, too? What did the “unwary” spectators expect? Scenes of death dealings, sounds of death rattlings from the archives of a “legitimate” serial killer?

Instead they got the portrait of a feeble minded blasphemer, stealing bricks from a sanctuary, being compared to a p*sser on catholic altars.

Most of the potential audience had probably never even reflected on the question if such things like the Holocaust could be questioned. The world isn’t flat, is it? So why bother about the “why” or the “how” it is round – and there can’t even be an “if” here, can there?

Then they suddenly realized that unthinkable things like that can be “proved” or “disproved”.

There is reason behind knowledge, not just…”knowing what everybody knows”!

And that “knowing” sometimes takes “daring” – the “sapere aude” of Kant has “transcendental” implications “beyond belief” even in our scientific age.

Once you are into this racket of daring to know, you inevitably come to those places where “angels fear to ‘thread’ “ (misspelling intended, for “pun’s” sake).

Only a fool would try to “dare” the dazzling abilities of Roberto on the subject of chemistry, for example. But…being a “philosopher” of the “poor” variety—what has Erik to lose? A reputation? Well, that can’t be any worse than it is around here, can it?


Roberto wrote:
What did Leuchter and Rudolf actually do?


They compared the cyanide content of material from the delousing chambers that exhibits blue staining and material from homicidal chambers that does not exhibit this staining. They showed that the blue staining on the walls of the delousing chambers could very well be a cyanide compound.

What does this prove?

According to Leuchter and Rudolf, it proves that the walls of the delousing chambers were exposed to HCN whereas the walls of the homicidal gas chambers were not.

Is this correct?

It might be if

a) The exposure of the walls of the homicidal gas chambers to HCN would necessarily lead to the formation of blue stains under the reported conditions of the gassings; and

b) There were no significant traces of HCN on any parts of the walls of the homicidal gas chambers as opposed to parts of the walls of the delousing chambers under similar conditions.

As to a):

According to a study by Alich, Howarth, and Johnson cited by Rudolf in his report, “Prussian blue” forms only at very high concentrations of CN- ions, which means that too much humidity will “spoil” the reaction that leads to the formation of “Prussian blue”. There are reasons to assume that the concentration of such ions was much lower in the homicidal gas chambers than in the delousing chambers. First of all, the level of humidity in the former is likely to have been higher at the outset due to perspiration and exhalation from the tightly-packed victims. Second, due to the absorption of most of the HCN by the lungs of the fast-breathing victims the concentration of HCN liable to form “Prussian blue” in reaction with the existing moisture was much lower than in the delousing facilities. Third, the homicidal gas chambers were hosed down after each gassing, either before or after the bodies had been moved to the cremation room proper or to a morgue-like room adjacent to the gassing room that some of the crematoria seem to have had. This is confirmed by several witnesses: Henry Tauber, Filip Müller, Dr. Miklos Nyszili, Daniel Bennahmias, Szlama Dragon. The resulting dilution would have reduced the concentration of CN- ions far below the minimum necessary for the formation of “Prussian blue”.

Prussian blue formation is extremely sensitive to concentration and also to pH. Very small effects could tip the balance between whether Prussian blue forms or not. Alich et al. found a strong pH dependence to the reaction. The presence of human beings in the gas chambers could also help tip the balance. CO2 is an acid anhydride and there would have been a lot of it in the homicidal chambers. An acid anhydride is a substance that increases the acidity of a solution when it becomes solvated. Even atmospheric concentrations of CO2 (at 360 ppm today, about 330 ppm then) are sufficient to cause pure rain water to have a pH of 5.6. Human beings exhale about 4% CO2, so the pH could be quite a bit lower. For example at 2% CO2 the pH would be below 4.8. Low pH inhibits the reaction. Additionally, a lower pH will drive the HCN from solution, making the CN- more dilute at the outset.

The above shows that formation of “Prussian blue” in buildings exposed to HCN is by no means a must. Markiewicz et al.(see below) were not able to produce such pigments in experiments with HCN and building materials. Additionally, Rudolf did an experiment in which he exposed a brick to HCN and yet found no detectable level of cyanides within the sensitivity of his analytical method. These failures to produce Prussian blue are sufficient to demonstrate that its formation at detectable levels is not a necessary result of exposure to HCN.

Leuchter’s and Rudolf’s theories have therefore failed on the first count.

This can be compared to Roberto’s arithmetics of Treblinka.

It can be proved mathematically that the few acres there can harbor the remains of almost any number of victims, when you take into consideration the facilities of the Blobel system of “spontaneous combustion” of exhumed corpses, plus the excavators and stone crushers provided by the Treblinka I quarry, all in the service of the “Enterdungsaktion”.

The same applies to the mass graves from the murders of the Police Battalions in Eastern Europe. The mass graves described by Bruns (Riga), Gräbe(Dubno etc), von Bussche (Dubno witness, too) can contain any amount of victims, since their depths are unknown, and the proceedings described by the Jäger report of marching thousands of Jews towards those graves they had to dig themselves, can be postulated from the cooperation of a Jewish “death wish”, together with a Nazi “realm of madness”.

The crematoria of Auschwitz and elsewhere can take care of all and any number of corpses, using the same kind(?) of mathematics.

Roberto(ex Medorjurgen) and Xanthro described the respective math of it at the old pub3.ezboard forum on the thread “ A Facetious Post about Crematoria”, initiated by Mr. Mills.
http://pub3.ezboard.com/fskalmanforumfr ... 41&stop=60

The lack of Prussian Blue on the walls of an alleged gas chamber at Auschwitz, using Zyklon B as a death gas, can be explained by the attraction of the HCN by the humid bodies of the victims as compared to the bricks in the walls and roof and floor.

>>“Prussian blue” forms only at very high concentrations of CN- ions, which means that too much humidity will “spoil” the reaction that leads to the formation of “Prussian blue”.<<

I.e., too much humidity hinders high concentrations of CN-ions.

Since my knowledge of the effects of humidity on CN-ions has much to be humble about it, I cannot with the best “revisionist” ill will in the world pronounce a Bunchian: “No it doesn’t!” and let it rest at that.

Just in order to illustrate the tribulations presented by the facilities of the Internet to the searcher of Truth (or deniers’ drivel, if you like!), I will quote the “rich man’s Leuchter”, an engineer “for real” :
The amount of HCN to be absorbed by the walls does not only depend on the concentration of HCN in the air, but also on the temperature of the walls, their water content and their material.
a. Cold, damp walls, as were to be expected in the underground morgues of Crema II and III, have a tendency of absorbing ten times as much HCN then warm, dry walls, as for example the interior walls of the delousing facilities BW 5a and BW 5b in Birkenau.[62]

(see link below.)

Compare Roberto above:

>>There are reasons to assume that the concentration of such ions was much lower in the homicidal gas chambers than in the delousing chambers. First of all, the level of humidity in the former is likely to have been higher at the outset due to perspiration and exhalation from the tightly-packed victims.<<

Can the lower concentration of such ions thanks to the higher humidity be compensated and even overruled by the “tendency of absorbing” of the walls, thanks to the same?

Roberto wrote:
>>CO2 is an acid anhydride and there would have been a lot of it in the homicidal chambers. An acid anhydride is a substance that increases the acidity of a solution when it becomes solvated.<<
The cement plaster used in the morgues has a much higher tendency to accumulate HCN than the lime plaster used in the delousing facilities, and this tendency prevails longer as cement mortar and plaster stays alkaline for many months and years, whereas lime mortar become neutral relatively quickly (in weeks rather than months, depending on temperature, humidity, amount of CO2 available and on the consistency of the mortar.)[63]
Would the probable higher amount of CO2 in the homicidal chambers described by Roberto be compensated and even overruled by the “much higher tendency” of “cement plaster” to “accumulate HCN”?

Roberto wrote:

>>The above shows that formation of “Prussian blue” in buildings exposed to HCN is by no means a must. Markiewicz et al.(see below) were not able to produce such pigments in experiments with HCN and building materials. Additionally, Rudolf did an experiment in which he exposed a brick to HCN and yet found no detectable level of cyanides within the sensitivity of his analytical method. These failures to produce Prussian blue are sufficient to demonstrate that its formation at detectable levels is not a necessary result of exposure to HCN.

Leuchter’s and Rudolf’s theories have therefore failed on the first count.<<

But at least one of them doesn’t agree:
In fact, the tendency of the walls of morgue 1 in Crema II to absorb HCN were much higher than that in the delousing facilities. There the walls were on ground level, the rooms were heated, and they were built of cheap lime mortar. Most likely, this increased tendency to absorb HCN would have compensated the somewhat shorter time of exposure of the morgues 1 ('gas chamber'). Nevertheless, analysis results of a sample taken from of the certainly warm and dry interior wall of this room yielded some 2900,0 mg cyanide per kg sample material (see my sample #12, http://www.vho.org/D/rga/rudolf.html), but the samples taken from the alleged 'gas chamber' still don't yield any result that could be interpreted.

http://vho.org/GB/c/GR/RudolfOnVanPelt.html

Who knows?

Charles Bunch
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#43

Post by Charles Bunch » 06 Feb 2003, 23:33

Dan wrote:David, the fact that Fred wasn't licensed was no big deal. That kind of thing is almost never inforced here in the states unless there is a complaint. Contract law is so complicated it is universally ignored by everyone, at least as to the requirements of legal details. Here in Ca., if you hire me to build a fence along the side of your house, at it costs 301 dollars, I don't even want to get into the forms and disclaimers involved, and nobody does them.

My understanding is that in Mass only about half the engineers were licensed. As Qvist implied, nothing would have happened to him if he hadn't offended some powerfull people.
Your understanding is incomplete.


All engineers performing work as engineers must be licensed _or_ working in companies in which their work is being supervised by licensed engineers.

Leuchter was unsupervised, and marketed his consulting services as an engineer.

In other words, he lied. That he wouldn't have been discovered but for his notoriety is akin to feeling sorry for a politician whose resume claims are discovered to be bogus by the news media. While it is true the deception might not have been discovered, that in no way lessens the deception.

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Roberto
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#44

Post by Roberto » 07 Feb 2003, 14:07

Erik wrote:
Roberto wrote:
What did Leuchter and Rudolf actually do?


They compared the cyanide content of material from the delousing chambers that exhibits blue staining and material from homicidal chambers that does not exhibit this staining. They showed that the blue staining on the walls of the delousing chambers could very well be a cyanide compound.

What does this prove?

According to Leuchter and Rudolf, it proves that the walls of the delousing chambers were exposed to HCN whereas the walls of the homicidal gas chambers were not.

Is this correct?

It might be if

a) The exposure of the walls of the homicidal gas chambers to HCN would necessarily lead to the formation of blue stains under the reported conditions of the gassings; and

b) There were no significant traces of HCN on any parts of the walls of the homicidal gas chambers as opposed to parts of the walls of the delousing chambers under similar conditions.

As to a):

According to a study by Alich, Howarth, and Johnson cited by Rudolf in his report, “Prussian blue” forms only at very high concentrations of CN- ions, which means that too much humidity will “spoil” the reaction that leads to the formation of “Prussian blue”. There are reasons to assume that the concentration of such ions was much lower in the homicidal gas chambers than in the delousing chambers. First of all, the level of humidity in the former is likely to have been higher at the outset due to perspiration and exhalation from the tightly-packed victims. Second, due to the absorption of most of the HCN by the lungs of the fast-breathing victims the concentration of HCN liable to form “Prussian blue” in reaction with the existing moisture was much lower than in the delousing facilities. Third, the homicidal gas chambers were hosed down after each gassing, either before or after the bodies had been moved to the cremation room proper or to a morgue-like room adjacent to the gassing room that some of the crematoria seem to have had. This is confirmed by several witnesses: Henry Tauber, Filip Müller, Dr. Miklos Nyszili, Daniel Bennahmias, Szlama Dragon. The resulting dilution would have reduced the concentration of CN- ions far below the minimum necessary for the formation of “Prussian blue”.

Prussian blue formation is extremely sensitive to concentration and also to pH. Very small effects could tip the balance between whether Prussian blue forms or not. Alich et al. found a strong pH dependence to the reaction. The presence of human beings in the gas chambers could also help tip the balance. CO2 is an acid anhydride and there would have been a lot of it in the homicidal chambers. An acid anhydride is a substance that increases the acidity of a solution when it becomes solvated. Even atmospheric concentrations of CO2 (at 360 ppm today, about 330 ppm then) are sufficient to cause pure rain water to have a pH of 5.6. Human beings exhale about 4% CO2, so the pH could be quite a bit lower. For example at 2% CO2 the pH would be below 4.8. Low pH inhibits the reaction. Additionally, a lower pH will drive the HCN from solution, making the CN- more dilute at the outset.

The above shows that formation of “Prussian blue” in buildings exposed to HCN is by no means a must. Markiewicz et al.(see below) were not able to produce such pigments in experiments with HCN and building materials. Additionally, Rudolf did an experiment in which he exposed a brick to HCN and yet found no detectable level of cyanides within the sensitivity of his analytical method. These failures to produce Prussian blue are sufficient to demonstrate that its formation at detectable levels is not a necessary result of exposure to HCN.

Leuchter’s and Rudolf’s theories have therefore failed on the first count.

This can be compared to Roberto’s arithmetics of Treblinka.
Which seems to bother you a lot, especially as you cannot demonstrate there’s anything wrong with my arithmetic, ain’t that so, philosopher ?
Erik wrote:
It can be proved mathematically that the few acres there can harbor the remains of almost any number of victims, when you take into consideration the facilities of the Blobel system of “spontaneous combustion” of exhumed corpses, plus the excavators and stone crushers provided by the Treblinka I quarry, all in the service of the “Enterdungsaktion”.
Anything about the corresponding perpetrators’ depositions and eyewitness testimonials you can show to be implausible ? Don’t think so. The “Revisionists” ludicrous calculations on the fuel amount, apart from other fallacies, didn’t even take into account the fact that most of the bodies had been lying in mass graves for quite a while, that the mass of flesh and bones to be burned was thus greatly reduced and that the liquids of putrefaction probably aided combustion, thus allowing for incineration using minimum amounts of fuel.
Erik wrote:
The same applies to the mass graves from the murders of the Police Battalions in Eastern Europe. The mass graves described by Bruns (Riga), Gräbe(Dubno etc), von Bussche (Dubno witness, too) can contain any amount of victims, since their depths are unknown, and the proceedings described by the Jäger report of marching thousands of Jews towards those graves they had to dig themselves, can be postulated from the cooperation of a Jewish “death wish”, together with a Nazi “realm of madness”.
Not "any amount of victims", but 4-6 or 8-9 victims per cubic meter, depending on whether the bodies were tossed in at random or arranged in an “orderly” fashion and on the age and sex composition of each batch of victims. And it’s not as if the “depths are unknown” either. In many cases the measurements of the mass graves are recorded in the reports of Soviet investigation commissions, making it possible to calculate the contents of the graves.
Erik wrote: The crematoria of Auschwitz and elsewhere can take care of all and any number of corpses, using the same kind(?) of mathematics.
Not “all and any number of corpses”, but certainly the number of deportees that become apparent from the documentary evidence and for the fate of whom “Revisionists” have never been able to find a plausible alternative explanation. Anything wrong with the math, phil ?
Erik wrote: Roberto(ex Medorjurgen) and Xanthro described the respective math of it at the old pub3.ezboard forum on the thread “ A Facetious Post about Crematoria”, initiated by Mr. Mills.
http://pub3.ezboard.com/fskalmanforumfr ... 41&stop=60
They sure did. Anything wrong with the math, once again ?
Erik wrote: The lack of Prussian Blue on the walls of an alleged gas chamber at Auschwitz, using Zyklon B as a death gas, can be explained by the attraction of the HCN by the humid bodies of the victims as compared to the bricks in the walls and roof and floor.

>>“Prussian blue” forms only at very high concentrations of CN- ions, which means that too much humidity will “spoil” the reaction that leads to the formation of “Prussian blue”.<<

I.e., too much humidity hinders high concentrations of CN-ions.

Since my knowledge of the effects of humidity on CN-ions has much to be humble about it, I cannot with the best “revisionist” ill will in the world pronounce a Bunchian: “No it doesn’t!” and let it rest at that.

Just in order to illustrate the tribulations presented by the facilities of the Internet to the searcher of Truth (or deniers’ drivel, if you like!), I will quote the “rich man’s Leuchter”, an engineer “for real” :
The amount of HCN to be absorbed by the walls does not only depend on the concentration of HCN in the air, but also on the temperature of the walls, their water content and their material.
a. Cold, damp walls, as were to be expected in the underground morgues of Crema II and III, have a tendency of absorbing ten times as much HCN then warm, dry walls, as for example the interior walls of the delousing facilities BW 5a and BW 5b in Birkenau.[62]

(see link below.)

Compare Roberto above:

>>There are reasons to assume that the concentration of such ions was much lower in the homicidal gas chambers than in the delousing chambers. First of all, the level of humidity in the former is likely to have been higher at the outset due to perspiration and exhalation from the tightly-packed victims.<<

Can the lower concentration of such ions thanks to the higher humidity be compensated and even overruled by the “tendency of absorbing” of the walls, thanks to the same?
Well, the philosopher’s guru would first have to convince his critics that he didn’t just suck the stuff about the higher absorption tendency out of his thumb. Then he would have to prove that this higher absorption tendency would not only improve the chances for the formation of iron blues, but make that formation a certainty. Whether a higher absorption rate would make up for increased humidity is doubtful considering that it takes a much lower amount of HCN to kill human beings than to kill insects, that the walls of the homicidal chambers were exposed to HCN for a much shorter time (half an hour at most before ventilation blew the gas out, as opposed to 16 hours or more in the delousing chambers) and that a considerable amount of the HCN used in homicidal gassing was absorbed by the fast-breathing victims’ lungs. Did your guru take any of these factors into account, phil ?
Erik wrote: Roberto wrote:
>>CO2 is an acid anhydride and there would have been a lot of it in the homicidal chambers. An acid anhydride is a substance that increases the acidity of a solution when it becomes solvated.<<
The cement plaster used in the morgues has a much higher tendency to accumulate HCN than the lime plaster used in the delousing facilities, and this tendency prevails longer as cement mortar and plaster stays alkaline for many months and years, whereas lime mortar become neutral relatively quickly (in weeks rather than months, depending on temperature, humidity, amount of CO2 available and on the consistency of the mortar.)[63]
Would the probable higher amount of CO2 in the homicidal chambers described by Roberto be compensated and even overruled by the “much higher tendency” of “cement plaster” to “accumulate HCN”?
Everything is possible, but it’s for your guru to prove i) the foundations of his contention about the difference between cement and lime plaster and ii) the influence this would have on the chance of iron blues forming, considering all the odds against it resulting from the factors described above.
Erik wrote: Roberto wrote:

>>The above shows that formation of “Prussian blue” in buildings exposed to HCN is by no means a must. Markiewicz et al.(see below) were not able to produce such pigments in experiments with HCN and building materials. Additionally, Rudolf did an experiment in which he exposed a brick to HCN and yet found no detectable level of cyanides within the sensitivity of his analytical method. These failures to produce Prussian blue are sufficient to demonstrate that its formation at detectable levels is not a necessary result of exposure to HCN.

Leuchter’s and Rudolf’s theories have therefore failed on the first count.<<

But at least one of them doesn’t agree:
Why, did you expect a true believer to meekly accept arguments that contest his absurd contentions ?
Erik wrote:
In fact, the tendency of the walls of morgue 1 in Crema II to absorb HCN were much higher than that in the delousing facilities. There the walls were on ground level, the rooms were heated, and they were built of cheap lime mortar. Most likely, this increased tendency to absorb HCN would have compensated the somewhat shorter time of exposure of the morgues 1 ('gas chamber'). Nevertheless, analysis results of a sample taken from of the certainly warm and dry interior wall of this room yielded some 2900,0 mg cyanide per kg sample material (see my sample #12, http://www.vho.org/D/rga/rudolf.html), but the samples taken from the alleged 'gas chamber' still don't yield any result that could be interpreted.

http://vho.org/GB/c/GR/RudolfOnVanPelt.html
A “somewhat shorter time of exposure”, the guru writes. 16 hours vs. half an hour on each occasion, a factor of 32. Let’s see how the guru calculates that away on account of higher absorption/accumulation, taking each of the above mentioned factors into account. And if “the samples taken from the alleged 'gas chamber' still don't yield any result that could be interpreted”, the guru should blame this on the inadequacy of the method he used. Markiewicz et al found traces of HCN in the homicidal gas chambers not much below those encountered in the delousing chambers and way above those verified in the camp’s other buildings, with their method.
Erik wrote:Who knows?
Well, it’s up to your guru to prove that under the conditions of homicidal gassing described by witnesses, iron blues would necessarily have formed.

Not only has he failed to do this, there are also significant factors obstructing the formation of iron blues he obviously failed to take into account, see above.

But what does that matter to a true believer ? Faith moves mountains, as they say.
Keep the Faith fellow revisionists. The Nazis and the SS were the good guys--but the anti-Nazis and the anti-revisionists dare not admit it for fear of losing their fabulous, ill gotten gains from the war.
“Hoaxbuster” Friedrich Paul Berg on the Codoh discussion forum.
http://www.codoh.org/dcforum/DCForumID9/143.html#10

Erik
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Location: Sweden

#45

Post by Erik » 07 Feb 2003, 19:13

Roberto wrote:
Well, it’s up to your guru to prove that under the conditions of homicidal gassing described by witnesses, iron blues would necessarily have formed.
As expected, Roberto handles the objections gallantly. Prussian blue joins the ranks of diesel exhaust death gas, mass graves, fuel for cremations and a Hitler order as unnecessities for confirmation of a Holocaust.

Body moisture and after-hosings do to the walls of the Auschwitz gas chambers what “the liquids of putrefaction” do to the cremation of corpses from mass graves, what bone mills or stone crushers do to skeletons remaining after cremation, and what oral orders and a postulated “realm of madness” do to “get it going”.

The rest is mathematics and statistics – or remains “to your guru to prove” as opposed to just “suck it out of his thumb”.

As expected.

But Roberto supplied something quite new--- to the philosopher’s knowledge, anyway:

Erik wrote:The same applies to the mass graves from the murders of the Police Battalions in Eastern Europe. The mass graves described by Bruns (Riga), Gräbe(Dubno etc), von Bussche (Dubno witness, too) can contain any amount of victims, since their depths are unknown, and the proceedings described by the Jäger report of marching thousands of Jews towards those graves they had to dig themselves, can be postulated from the cooperation of a Jewish “death wish”, together with a Nazi “realm of madness”.
Not "any amount of victims", but 4-6 or 8-9 victims per cubic meter, depending on whether the bodies were tossed in at random or arranged in an “orderly” fashion and on the age and sex composition of each batch of victims. And it’s not as if the “depths are unknown” either. In many cases the measurements of the mass graves are recorded in the reports of Soviet investigation commissions, making it possible to calculate the contents of the graves.
(my emphasis).

Chalutzim has recently supplied some horrifying photos to the thread “Last chance”, started by Dan.
http://www.thirdreichforum.com/phpBB2/v ... 816#133816

A mass grave or “ditch” (Bruns’ description) of the dimensions of those photos can apparently contain an enormous amount of victims.

It also has the appearance of having been dug with an excavator, and must consequently have been easy to locate afterwards.

Is this mass grave LATVIA: Liepaja December 14-16, 1941, “recorded in the reports of Soviet investigation commissions”?

Since there are survivors from this massacre, and film footage of the earlier massacre of August 1941, the mass grave(s) must be among those “investigated”?

Are there witnesses for the Enterdungsaktion, too?
“In the database of the Hall of Names, Yad Vashem has over 2200 Pages of Testimony for Jews from Liepaja – over one third of all the victims from the town.”, says the text to the posting.

OK, this is “off topic”.

But your information concerning the existence of “reports of Soviet investigation commissions” would refute the allegation of revisionists that such forensic reports of mass graves do not exist.

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