Germans executed for Katyn

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Re: Germans executed for Katyn

Post by David Thompson » 30 Apr 2010 16:15

From 28 December 1945 to 4 January 1946, seven servicemen of the German Wehrmacht were tried by a Soviet military court in Leningrad. One of them, Arno Diere, was charged with helping to dig the Katyn graves during the execution. Diere, who was accused of murder using machine-guns in Soviet villages, confessed to having taken part in burial (though not the execution) of 15-20 thousand Polish POWs in Katyn. For this he was spared execution and was given 15 years of hard labor. His confession was full of absurdities, and thus he was not used as a Soviet prosecution witness during the Nuremberg trials. In a note of 29 November 1954 he recanted his confession, claiming that he was forced to confess by the investigators. Contrary to a number of claims[56] of all the accused during the Leningrad Trial, only Diere was accused of a connection to the Katyn massacre.[57]
____________________________
56. Montréal Gazette, Canada, 5 November 1990. "Germans Hanged for Katyn" and Letter published in Anzeiger der Notverwaltung des Deutschen Ostens, No.5, Sept./Oct. 2005., Retrieved on 16 November, 2006.
57. (Russian) I.S.Yazhborovskaja, A.Yu.Yablokov, V.S.Parsadanova, Катынский синдром в советско-польских и российско-польских отношениях, Moscow, ROSSPEN, 2001, pp. 336, 337.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Katyn_massacre

The Russian-language text given in footnote 57 can be seen at http://katynbooks.narod.ru/syndrome/Doc ... er_05.html

Diere's name is also rendered as Duere and Durer.

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Sergey Romanov
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Re: Germans executed for Katyn

Post by Sergey Romanov » 30 Apr 2010 16:21

Full disclosure - this information (later edited) was initially inserted into wikipedia by me:

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?tit ... =193691839

Before that the usual misinformation by alleged "Famira" was being repeated in the article:

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?tit ... =193342828

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Re: Germans executed for Katyn

Post by David Thompson » 30 Apr 2010 16:22

Thanks, Sergey.

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Sergey Romanov
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Re: Germans executed for Katyn

Post by Sergey Romanov » 30 Apr 2010 16:26

As a side note, here's a hilarious letter by a clueless Holocaust denier and ignoramus extraordinaire Walter Lueftl: http://globalfire.tv/nj/05en/history/katynlie.htm

And BTW this very site still contains incorrect info:

http://www.axishistory.com/index.php?id=2824

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Sergey Romanov
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Re: Germans executed for Katyn

Post by Sergey Romanov » 30 Apr 2010 16:31

http://www.axishistory.com/index.php?id=2824
Katyn Trial (29 Dec 1945 - 5 Jan 1946)
Karl Hermann Strüffling - Death by hanging
Heinrich Remmlinger - Death by hanging
Ernst Böhm - Death by hanging
Eduard Sonnenfeld - Death by hanging
Herbard Janike - Death by hanging
Erwin Skotki - Death by hanging
Ernst Geherer - Death by hanging
Erich Paul Vogel - Hard labour for a term of 20 years
Franz Wiese - Hard labour for a term of 20 years
Arno Dürer - Hard labour for a term of 15 years



This trail was held before a soviet military Court from the 29. December 1945 to the 5. January 1946 in Leningrad. Those sentenced to death were executed publicly the same day.

This infamous Show-trail had the special political purpose to establish the myth, that the massacre of Katyn / Smolensk was a german war crime. In fact it was committed by the NKVD in 1941.
Aside from numerous spelling errors it contains some pretty bad factual errors. Some of them:

1. "Katyn Trial"

It was not.

2. "This infamous Show-trail had the special political purpose to establish the myth, that the massacre of Katyn / Smolensk was a german war crime."

Perhaps this was one of the aims, it certainly wasn't a primary aim and the trial is very obscure and was not extensively used by the Soviet agitprop in their Katyn misinformation campaign (aside from several news items).

3. "In fact it was committed by the NKVD in 1941."

1940.

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Re: Germans executed for Katyn

Post by Hecht » 30 Apr 2010 16:40

Sergey Romanov wrote:how a person can be made to confess to anything?
Sergey, this is what I was meaning with :roll:

This is the undebatable prove that this is a thing we definitely have to think about while dealing with at least some of the "confessions of warcrimes" made during post-war trials in URSS.

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Sergey Romanov
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Re: Germans executed for Katyn

Post by Sergey Romanov » 30 Apr 2010 16:48

> This is the undebatable prove that this is a thing we definitely have to think about while dealing with at least some of the "confessions of warcrimes" made during post-war trials in URSS.

Sure.

But if anyone (e.g. Holocaust deniers) will want to make this a universal Soviet-evidence-defeater, as in "none of the Soviet stuff can be trusted, they made Diere confess!", that would be an EPIC FAIL of an argument.

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Marcus
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Re: Germans executed for Katyn

Post by Marcus » 30 Apr 2010 17:06

Sergey Romanov wrote:And BTW this very site still contains incorrect info:

http://www.axishistory.com/index.php?id=2824
I thought that page was removed already, I'll take care of that.

/Marcus

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Re: Germans executed for Katyn

Post by Kajtmaz » 30 Apr 2010 21:32

Sergey Romanov wrote:But if anyone (e.g. Holocaust deniers) will want to make this a universal Soviet-evidence-defeater, as in "none of the Soviet stuff can be trusted, they made Diere confess!", that would be an EPIC FAIL of an argument.
at least after that case "Soviet-evidence" dont deserve confidence-building.

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Sergey Romanov
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Re: Germans executed for Katyn

Post by Sergey Romanov » 30 Apr 2010 21:36

I don't know what you mean by "confidence building". Also, are you a denier?

And why after "that case" and not, say, after the Moscow show trials of 1930s?

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Re: Germans executed for Katyn

Post by Kajtmaz » 30 Apr 2010 21:40

Sergey Romanov wrote:I don't know what you mean by "confidence building". Also, are you a denier?

And why after "that case" and not, say, after the Moscow show trials of 1930s?
A: no.
possibly you yourself generalize.
Good luck!

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Sergey Romanov
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Re: Germans executed for Katyn

Post by Sergey Romanov » 30 Apr 2010 21:46

You did not answer two relevant questions.

Let me repeat them.

I don't know what you mean by "confidence building". [Yeah, there is no question mark. It's still an implicit question.]

And why after "that case" and not, say, after the Moscow show trials of 1930s?

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Re: Germans executed for Katyn

Post by PFLB » 01 May 2010 03:22

I would think these trials are an improvement on Stalin's purges. At least in these trials there was indisputable evidence that crimes were in fact committed by someone

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Re: Germans executed for Katyn

Post by Sergey Romanov » 12 Dec 2020 00:49


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Re: Germans executed for Katyn

Post by steve248 » 14 Dec 2020 12:46

Sergey, I seem to recall that in the 1960s the Soviets tried to conflate the Soviet crime at Katyn with the German crime at Khatyn in Belorus? Part of Cold War propaganda whenever the Katyn massacres came up.

Although David Thompson (a decade ago on this topic, above) quoted various links, what is not available on-line are the British views on Katyn that are available in UK National Archives. Although they could not stop the Soviet prosecutors at IMT discussing Katyn, working with the Americans and French they ensured the Katyn charges were dropped from the indictment.

The Germans organized an "independent" forensic team to investigate the Katyn site. One or possibly two came from Denmark and their findings were discovered or given to the British authorities after they occupied Denmark after the war. A quick search of the UK NA website shows they have about 50 files concerning the Katyn massacre; and a PREM file (Prime Minister's Office file) from June 1943 about it.

For a fictional account, with an element of truth and a mountain of salt, the late Philip Kerr's main character, Bernie Gunter, also investigated the Kaytn massacres and accompanies the forensic team. Maybe I am wrong, but I think Kerr has one one of the forensic reports at the end of the book. But I maybe wrong it is many years since I read it on holiday, whatever they are.

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