Death Van Trials

[Roberto]

Why would all those judges in the local and federal courts in West Germany participate in a gross and fraudulent injustice on their own people? Why would the West German courts acquit some accused war crimes defendants (even some of the accused in the death van trials), but convict other death van defendants?

Not their own people, "Nazis." And some of those people probably were vile characters, some treated too leniently considering the gravity of the accusations.

Come on, Smith.

Cut out the bullshit and show us evidence that the any of the trials before West German courts did not live up to the procedural rules of a democratic country, or that any German judge, prosecutor or defense attorney violated his or her legal obligations in the service of a political agenda.

Show us evidence as to just how "political" those trials were. Most of them, as German historians lamented, were not even taken notice of by the public.

Show us evidence to any manipulation of incriminating documents, defendants' depositions or eyewitness testimonials.

Let's see some substance to your allegations, not just that endlessly repeated, boring and imbecile "witchcraft" baloney.

[Scott Smith]

Why would all those judges in the local and federal courts in West Germany participate in a gross and fraudulent injustice on their own people? Why would the West German courts acquit some accused war crimes defendants (even some of the accused in the death van trials), but convict other death van defendants?

Not their own people, "Nazis." And some of those people probably were vile characters, some treated too leniently considering the gravity of the accusations.

Come on, Smith.

Cut out the bullshit and show us evidence that the any of the trials before West German courts did not live up to the procedural rules of a democratic country, or that any German judge, prosecutor or defense attorney violated his or her legal obligations in the service of a political agenda.

Show us evidence as to just how "political" those trials were. Most of them, as German historians lamented, were not even taken notice of by the public.

Show us evidence to any manipulation of incriminating documents, defendants' depositions or eyewitness testimonials.

Let's see some substance to your allegations, not just that endlessly repeated, boring and imbecile "witchcraft" baloney.

Well, they can't seem to produce any credible evidence for a Gas-Van and seem not to have investigated the murder-weapons at all. You're the Believer--make your case. I'm just the skeptic.

[Roberto]

Why would all those judges in the local and federal courts in West Germany participate in a gross and fraudulent injustice on their own people? Why would the West German courts acquit some accused war crimes defendants (even some of the accused in the death van trials), but convict other death van defendants?

Not their own people, "Nazis." And some of those people probably were vile characters, some treated too leniently considering the gravity of the accusations.

Come on, Smith.

Cut out the bullshit and show us evidence that the any of the trials before West German courts did not live up to the procedural rules of a democratic country, or that any German judge, prosecutor or defense attorney violated his or her legal obligations in the service of a political agenda.

Show us evidence as to just how "political" those trials were. Most of them, as German historians lamented, were not even taken notice of by the public.

Show us evidence to any manipulation of incriminating documents, defendants' depositions or eyewitness testimonials.

Let's see some substance to your allegations, not just that endlessly repeated, boring and imbecile "witchcraft" baloney.

Well, they can't seem to produce any credible evidence for a Gas-Van

Credible evidence by whose standards, Mr. Smith ? By the ones of criminal justice and historiography, there's enough credible evidence, in the form of documents, eyewitness testimonials and defendants' depositions.

[and seem not to have investigated the murder-weapons at all.

Is there any good reason why they should have gone into such irrelevant details as what type of engine the gas vans had ?

Would this have contributed anything to establishing the identity of the criminals and the deeds and guilt of the defendants ? Was it in any way necessary for this purpose ?

You're the Believer--make your case. I'm just the skeptic.

It should be rather obvious who of us just follows the evidence where it leads and who unreasonably shuns whatever evidence he comes across because it doesn't fit into what he would like to believe.

Here's a piece of documentary evidence regarding which you still owe me an answer, smart-ass:

Translation:

Privy Councillor Dr. Turner
SS-Major General
F.P.Number 18.739
O.U., April 11, 1942


Dear Comrade Wolff!

Now that the decision has been taken in my favor, I would be remiss - since I am convinced that this is singularly and only thanks to your influence and your tireless activity - if I did not transmit to you my most comradely and heartfelt thanks.

I can also again today, the more so since you know me well enough, only again repeat, that the matter did not have to do with my person - the person concerned could have just as easily had another name - but rather with a necessary battle that had to be fought against one-sided Wehrmacht interests, by which in the final unspoken result the SS Leaders, and therewith also the SS and further also the civil servants would have been affected.

The best proof for this is, on the one hand, a remark woven into an official document from WB Southeast "the appointment of the Higher SS and Police Leader, which did not take place according to the proposal here" or words to that effect, and on the other hand, the comment of the Chief of the General Staff WB Southeast after receipt of the decision in my favor "herewith the Wehrmacht has lost a battle".

In any event, there reigns here in all circles, even the Wehrmacht who have in any way followed this struggle, only joy over this victory and this joy you have alone, as I see it, afforded these people. My thanks for that.

May I use this occasion to send you as an attachment a copy of a letter from me to the Reichsführer of January 15, 1942 to which I have yet to receive an answer. I am not complaining because as I know, such things take time and I don't feel it is right for me to press the Reichsführer for the settlement of an affair. I know that for such matters you have an interest and the reason I now draw your attention to it is only because this question is now more than critical. Already some months ago, I shot dead all the Jews I could get my hands on in this area, concentrated all the Jewish women and children in a camp and with the help of the SD got my hands on a "delousing van," that in about 14 days to 4 weeks will have brought about the definitive clearing out of the camp, which in any event since the arrival of Meyssner and the turning over of this camp to him, was continued by him.[my emphasis] Then the time is come in which the Jewish officers to be found in prisoner of war camps under the Geneva Convention find out against our will about their no longer existing kinfolk and that could easily lead to complications[my emphasis].

Were the affected persons now to be freed, they would in the minute of the arrival have their ultimate freedom, but like their racial comrades not for very long, and then this entire question should be resolved once and for all. Any consideration could have counter-effects on our prisoners in Canada, if it comes out that the freed persons do not move around freely here... I personally do not agree with this consideration.

With best wishes for your personal well being, heartiest greetings and

Heil Hitler!

I am as always

your loyal

Turner

Source of quote:

http://www.holocaust-history.org/19420411-turner-wolff/

What was Dr. Turner talking about, Mr. Smith ?

What was the "delousing van" (quote marks are Turner's) he mentioned being used for ?

(Hint: the answer is provided in the following sentence of the same paragraph; I highlighted the passage.)

[Scott Smith]

I'll look at it later. I need to go get a couple of hours of sleep just like old times.

At any rate, why should the Nuremberg and subsequent courts look at scientific evidence when they already had all the "answers," which they called evidence? Credible-evidence would include scientific reasoning, verifiable testing and data, and not rely on Nuremberg documents of dubious authenticity or cherrypicked Survivor/Perpetrator tales.

[Charles Bunch]

No, I can't. You are the expert in legal matters. Perhaps between 1950 and 1990 laws were just.

No perhaps about it. And these were the trials which dealt, among other things, with the activities at the death camps.

But before those dates, and after, people have been persectuted for telling the truth.

Actually, not. While one can argue that laws dealing with the denial of history are wrong, one cannot make the leap that those so denying are telling anything like the truth.

I would say the burden of proof is on those known to have engaged in perjury and murder. That is not to say all the trials were bogus, just that the fact that verdicts were recorded doesn't make them right.

And the burden of proof in the post war trials in German, Polish, Austrian and other courts was met.

We need full, internationally open, and exhaustive forensic investigations of these things, but they are all to often illegal.

No we don't, not any more than we need such things for the Civil War.

[chalutzim]

(...)At any rate, why should the Nuremberg and subsequent courts look at scientific evidence when they already had all the "answers," which they called evidence? Credible-evidence would include scientific reasoning, verifiable testing and data, and not rely on Nuremberg documents of dubious authenticity or cherrypicked Survivor/Perpetrator tales.

Scott, I hope you really don't expect to be taken seriously regarding this commentary.

[Roberto]

I'll look at it later. I need to go get a couple of hours of sleep just like old times.

Yeah, sure. I'll wait.

At any rate, why should the Nuremberg and subsequent courts look at scientific evidence when they already had all the "answers," which they called evidence?

Again, what would the relevance of "scientific evidence", whatever that is supposed to mean, have been for establishing the deeds that the defendants were charged with and their guilt ?

Credible-evidence would include scientific reasoning, verifiable testing and data,

By the standards of what code or principles of evidence, Smith ? Show us.

and not rely on Nuremberg documents of dubious authenticity

Such as ? I strongly doubt you can show us any document the authenticity of which can reasonably be seen as "dubious", but you're welcome to try.

or cherrypicked Survivor/Perpetrator tales.

Tales, my dear boy ?

Or testimonials subject to cross-examination and comparison with other evidence, most of them for the defense ?

[...]In accordance with Articles 16 and 23 of the Charter, Counsel were either chosen by the defendants in custody themselves, or at their request were appointed by the Tribunal. In his absence the Tribunal appointed Counsel for the defendant Bormann, and also assigned Counsel to represent the named groups or organisations.

The Trial which was conducted in four languages -English, Russian, French and German- began on the 20th November, 1945, and pleas of " Not Guilty " were made by all the defendants except Bormann.

The hearing of evidence and the speeches of Counsel concluded on 31st August, 1946.

Four hundred and three open sessions of the Tribunal have been held. Thirty-three witnesses gave evidence orally for the Prosecution against the individual defendants, and 61 witnesses, in addition to 19 of the defendants, gave evidence for the Defence.

A further 143 witnesses gave evidence for the Defence by means of written answers to interrogatories.

The Tribunal appointed Commissioners to hear evidence relating to the organisations, and 101 witnesses were heard for the Defence before the Commissioners, and 1,809 affidavits from other witnesses were submitted. Six reports were also submitted, summarising the contents of a great number of further affidavits.

Thirty-eight thousand affidavits, signed by 155,000 people, were submitted on behalf of the Political Leaders, 136,213 on behalf of the SS, 10,000 on behalf of the SA, 7,000 on behalf of the SD, 3,000 on behalf of the General Staff and OKW, and 2,000 on behalf of the Gestapo.

The Tribunal itself heard 22 witnesses for the organisations. The documents tendered in evidence for the prosecution of the individual defendants and the organisations numbered several thousands. A complete stenographic record of everything said in court has been made, as well as an electrical recording of all the proceedings.

Copies of all the documents put in evidence by the Prosecution have been supplied to the Defence in the German language. The applications made by the defendants for the production of witnesses and documents raised serious problems in some instances, on account of the unsettled state of the country. It was also necessary to limit the number of witnesses to be called, in order to have an expeditious hearing, in accordance with Article 18 (c) of the Charter. The Tribunal, after examination, granted all those applications which in their opinion were relevant to the defence of any defendant or named group or organisation, and were not cumulative. Facilities were provided for obtaining those witnesses and documents granted through the office of the General Secretary established by the Tribunal.

Much of the evidence presented to the Tribunal on behalf of the Prosecution was documentary evidence, captured by the Allied armies in German army headquarters, Government buildings, and elsewhere. Some of the documents were found in salt mines, buried in the ground, hidden behind false walls and in other places thought to be secure from discovery. The case, therefore, against the defendants rests in a large measure on documents of their own making, the authenticity of which has not been challenged except in one or two cases.[...]

From the IMT's judgement. Source of quote:

http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/imt/proc/judgen.htm

But this thread wasn't about Nuremberg, was it ?

[Roberto]

(...)At any rate, why should the Nuremberg and subsequent courts look at scientific evidence when they already had all the "answers," which they called evidence? Credible-evidence would include scientific reasoning, verifiable testing and data, and not rely on Nuremberg documents of dubious authenticity or cherrypicked Survivor/Perpetrator tales.

Scott, I hope you really don't expect to be taken seriously regarding this commentary.

I also hope that he's just pissed and letting off some steam. Let's be benevolent and assume this is the case.

[nickterry]

David,

came across this old thread while Googling around. In fact, the number of trials listed at Justiz und NS Verbrechen which mention gas vans in the short summaries is 32. You missed the DDR trials.

Gas vans and the related issues (e.g. experimental gassings) were also mentioned at:
- Krasnodar trial, 1943
- Kharkov trial, 1943
- IMT, 1945-6
- Minsk trial, 1945
- Einsatzgruppen Trial, 1947 (Case 9, by Ohlendorf and Blobel)
- Krakow Auschwitz trial, 1947

Matthias Beer identified 14 documents mentioning euphemised gas vans, at least another six have been found in the last decade.




Lfd. Nr 658 RSHA-KTI LG Stuttgart 1967 Widmann, 6.5 years Bd XXVI
Lfd. Nr 632 RSHA II D3a LG Hannover 1966 Pra.[del], 7 years Bd XXIII
Lfd. Nr 362 BdS Belgrad LG Köln 1953 Schäfer, 6.5 years Bd XI
Lfd. Nr 679 BdS Belgrad LG Stuttgart 1968 Eng., conv./freed. Bd XXIX
Lfd. Nr 700 BdS Belgrad LG Dortmund 1969 And., 2.5 years Bd XXXI
Lfd. Nr 1163 BdS Belgrad LG Rostock 1952 Sattler, life/no reha DDR Bd IV
Lfd. Nr 526 KdS Kiew LG Karlsruhe 1961 6 acquitted Bd XVII
Lfd. Nr 560 KdS Kiew LG Karlsruhe 1953 2 given 4 years Bd XIX
Lfd. Nr 703 EK 4a LG Darmstast 1969 3 acquitted Bd XXXII
Lfd. Nr 765 EK 4a LG Darmstadt 1971 Fin., 3 years 1 mth in prep
Lfd. Nr 1082 EK 4b LG Neubrand. 1961 Goercke, death DDR Bd III
Lfd. Nr 606 EK 6 LG Wuppertal 1965 3 jail, 1 acquit Bd XXII
Lfd. Nr 298 KdS Minsk KG Karlsruhe 1951 Rübe, life Bd IX
Lfd. Nr 552 KdS Minsk LG Koblenz Heuser et al (life) Bd XIX
Lfd. Nr 601 KdS Minsk LG Koblenz 4 x 4 or 4.5 years Bd XXII
Lfd. Nr 624 EK 8 KG Frankfurt 1966 Har., acquitted Bd XXIII
Lfd. Nr 702 EK 8 KG Kiel 1969 2 x 5.5 and 7 years Bd XXXII
Lfd. Nr 720 EK 8 KG Kiel 1969 Schl., acquitted Bd XXXIII
Lfd. Nr 750 EK 8 LG Frankfurt 1971 Stro., acquitted in prep.
Lfd Nr 1044 EK 8 LG Chemnitz 1971 Frentzel, life DDR Bd II
Lfd Nr 777 EK 10a LG München 1972 3 x 4 years in prep
Lfd. Nr 864 EK 10a LG München 1980 Chri., 10 years in prep
Lfd. Nr 1024 EK 10a LG Chemnitz 1976 Kinder, death DDR Bd I
Lfd. Nr 769 EK 10b LG München 1972 3 x 3-5 years in prep
Lfd. Nr 807 EK 11b LG München 1974 3 x 3-5 years in prep
Lfd. Nr 816 EK 12 LG München 1974 2 x 4-5 years in prep.
Lfd. Nr 795 KdSWarschau LG Hamburg 1973 1 x 12 years in prep.
Lfd. Nr 231 Kalisch LG Stuttgart 1949- Göhler, life Bd IX
Lfd. Nr 594 Chelmno LG Bonn 1965 11 defs, most jail Bd XXI
Lfd. Nr 603 Chelmno LG Kiel 1965 1 x 13.5 months Bd XXII
Lfd. Nr 809 GFP 570 LG Kiel 1974 Rie, acquitted in prep.
Lfd. Nr 1018 GFP 570 LG Berlin 1978 Paland, life DDR Bd I

[David Thompson]

nickterry -- Thanks for the correction and additional information. I had completely forgotten about this vintage thread, and the folks at JuNSV have added a lot more material since I made my initial posts.

[steve248]

I would like to add a perpetrator comment on this topic. Without looking up the exact
statement from the West German investigations into Einsatzgruppe D, possibly in
February or March 1942 a party of Sonderkommando 10a Sipo NCOs where returning
to the unit from leave. The journey back from Germany went via Simferopol/Crimea
where they reported back to the EG D headquarters. For the 500 or so miles from
Simferopol to Taganrog (north coast, Sea of Azov) these NCOs travelled in a
"Diamond" Gas Van. They knew what the van was for, even to the extent of having
the rear doors tied open despite the cold winter weather.

On the same topic, during the retreat from the Caucasus a "Saurer" Gas Van broke
down south of Rostov/north of Krasnodar. Several EG D perpetrators mentioned that
they blew it up to stop it falling into the hands of the Soviets.

[kies]

Although a number of documents and eyewitness accounts have been posted, some of the contributors to this forum have questioned whether anyone was ever killed in a gas van, and have questioned whether the gas vans worked at all.

Sure! at least one: my father.

Jäger, Bedrich DOB July 26, 1894
Arrived in Theresienstad September 4, 1942
Died in Maly Trostinec September 8, 1942

Jäger, Oskar DOB November 30, 1896
Arrived in Theresienstadt July 2, 1942
Died in Osvetim September 28, 1944 (Shot)
There were two small children 7 & 9 -Same Name -
they died on the same day.


Still watching - hoping -