Countries that saved all the jews living in them

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Krasnaya Zvezda
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Post by Krasnaya Zvezda » 07 Feb 2003 03:51

Xanthro wrote:
Korbius wrote:Xanthro, as I said before, this doesn't come from me but from actual facts in the Israeli archives.
I know, I've read the archives. As I said, there are a number of sites that claim that Albanian lost no Jews, unfortunately, they are mistaken.

People make the mistake of assuming no losses because the Jewish population after the war was higher than pre-war. That doesn't equate to no losses. It means that immigration outnumbered losses.

Under the Italians, each Jew in Albania was required to report each day, unfortunately, they kept lists that fell into Nazi hands. The Albanians tried to protect the Jews, but still the Nazi got some. This isn't the fault of the Albanians.

Albania was as safe a country in occupied Europe as a Jew could hope to find.

Xanthro
I agree to this Xanthro. Also just to add to the topic, when one compares the countries in their support for the Jews it is of ultimate importance that they compare the same conditions! For instance, areas under direct German occupation or German teritorry can not be comapred to the ones where Germans had limited influence.

Albania for instace was mainly under Italian occupation , Itlians found the idea of deporting the Jews very unpopular. The same was in Bulgaria, or even Hungary. It was Hitlers pressure that sometimes resulted in parts of Jewery being deported. I do not know how many serious attempts have Germans made to deport the Jews in Albania after sept 1943 since this also dependednt on the availble statistics and data, and I do not know how many Albanians really succesfully resisted such German attempts. The fact that Albaninan SS succumbed to German pressure in Pristina speak fori itself, why would the albanian SS be different in Kosovo from the one in Albania?

From this standpoint we can not compare Albania's effor to the one that Denmark for instance provided. I mean Denmark was basically directly treatened by Germans, and they as a country organized to save all the Jews. I mean this is an endevoar worthwhile mentioning it.

Also the example of Netherlands where even the king started wearing the yellow star as a protest to the Jewish discrimination is noteworthy. Again during full fledge German occupation.

I am sure Albania had brave individuals yet, the conditions where different to make a comparison with let say Denmark or Netherlands as a country or on an individual level to Poland where holocaust was practiced to the most strictest degree.

After the war Jews were eseverely suppressed in Albania like everyone else. In 1991 they where almost all airlifted to Israel. The remainig few dozens fled in late 90's after years of plundering, chaos, crime and violence that reigned Albania and to a certain degree reigns it today.

Tapani K.
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Post by Tapani K. » 07 Feb 2003 07:57

David, a good post on Finland. Couple of points, however, if I may.

I remember when Kersten's memoirs were published in Finland. They were met here with a degree of scepticism. Most of the Finnish participants in the matters described by Kersten agreed that he had shown himself as a more important person than he had actually been. Some of the Finns thought it even ludicrous that the Finnish policy in any matter would be directed or guided by a masseur.

Another matter, Finland's participation in WWII did not end in September 1944. We had to fight the Germans in the Lapland War. Those interested might want to take a look at this thread:
http://www.thirdreichforum.com/phpBB2/v ... php?t=9757


regards,
Tapani K.

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Korbius
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Post by Korbius » 07 Feb 2003 12:35

Krasnaya Zvezda wrote: I agree to this Xanthro. Also just to add to the topic, when one compares the countries in their support for the Jews it is of ultimate importance that they compare the same conditions! For instance, areas under direct German occupation or German teritorry can not be comapred to the ones where Germans had limited influence.

.
You even said it yourself that were were under german occupation after the italians left. So it is not anymore the same conditions as the other nazi occupied countries. C'mon get real.

Krasnaya Zvezda wrote:
The fact that Albaninan SS succumbed to German pressure in Pristina speak fori itself, why would the albanian SS be different in Kosovo from the one in Albania?
.
First of all, the Albanian SS was stationed in Kosova, not Albania. Secondly they were Kosovars not from Albania proper.
Krasnaya Zvezda wrote: From this standpoint we can not compare Albania's effor to the one that Denmark for instance provided. I mean Denmark was basically directly treatened by Germans, and they as a country organized to save all the Jews. I mean this is an endevoar worthwhile mentioning it.
Yeah, Denmark was directly threatened, while Albania was INDIRECTLY threatened. You are completely dissapointing me, you don't even seem to know how it was under German occupation. There were no favorites, all had the same consequences if they did something against the german authorities.
Krasnaya Zvezda wrote: I am sure Albania had brave individuals yet, the conditions where different to make a comparison with let say Denmark or Netherlands as a country or on an individual level to Poland where holocaust was practiced to the most strictest degree.
.
As I said previously, the conditions were the same in all german occupied territories. And when germans took control of Albania in late 43, most of jews were already hidden from previous years.

Krasnaya Zvezda wrote: After the war Jews were eseverely suppressed in Albania like everyone else. In 1991 they where almost all airlifted to Israel. The remainig few dozens fled in late 90's after years of plundering, chaos, crime and violence that reigned Albania and to a certain degree reigns it today.
My friend, Albania is not Russia where there are extremist neo-nazi groups persecuting jews, there are jews and they haven't fled, but please if you haven't been to albania to judge the situation, I would consider you not saying anything as you don't know much about it.

Krasnaya Zvezda
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Post by Krasnaya Zvezda » 07 Feb 2003 13:02

Yes Korbius I agree with you, Russia is not Albania. Someone is lucky here :wink:

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Korbius
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Post by Korbius » 07 Feb 2003 13:04

Krasnaya Zvezda wrote:Yes Korbius I agree with you, Russia is not Albania. Someone is lucky here :wink:
Yeah, someone is lucky. Guess who?

(Hint: not you)

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witness
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Post by witness » 07 Feb 2003 13:56

Korbius wrote:[My friend, Albania is not Russia where there are extremist neo-nazi groups persecuting jews....
8O Yes there are such groups in Russia ,you are right.
As well as many,many other political movements from the extreme left to
the extreme right. Is not it one of the signs of Democracy ?
But where did you get it from - that they are "persecuting " Jews ?
Any examples..? :)

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Korbius
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Post by Korbius » 07 Feb 2003 14:21

Witness, I didn't mean to offend you, but it was directed to Krasnaya who is the "all-knowing" and started defaming my country of origin.

David Thompson
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Post by David Thompson » 07 Feb 2003 15:43

Tapani K -- Thanks for the additional information on Kersten and the Lapland war. I think Kersten was a strange fellow, whose information the Finnish diplomats probably considered and balanced with many other sources to arrive at foreign policy decisions. I had forgotten about the Lapland War, and didn't really know much about it either, so the link was helpful.

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Marcus
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Post by Marcus » 07 Feb 2003 17:47

Krasnaya Zvezda & Korbius,

As Andy has pointed out to you before, relax and don't get into yet another childish fight! (not to mention that it is off topic)
And take your heated "Albania is great" / "Albania is not great" discussion elsewhere as you seem unable to discuss it in a calm and friendly manner.

/Marcus

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Scanderbeg
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Post by Scanderbeg » 15 Feb 2003 22:57

Marcus I agree with you that they both should cool it down and try to keep it on topic. But I just want to bring to your attention a little fact in here. Please compare the two posts below:
Xanthro wrote: I know, I've read the archives. As I said, there are a number of sites that claim that Albanian lost no Jews, unfortunately, they are mistaken.

People make the mistake of assuming no losses because the Jewish population after the war was higher than pre-war. That doesn't equate to no losses. It means that immigration outnumbered losses.

Under the Italians, each Jew in Albania was required to report each day, unfortunately, they kept lists that fell into Nazi hands. The Albanians tried to protect the Jews, but still the Nazi got some. This isn't the fault of the Albanians.

Albania was as safe a country in occupied Europe as a Jew could hope to find.
Krasnaya Zvezda wrote: I agree to this Xanthro. Also just to add to the topic, when one compares the countries in their support for the Jews it is of ultimate importance that they compare the same conditions! For instance, areas under direct German occupation or German teritorry can not be comapred to the ones where Germans had limited influence.

Albania for instace was mainly under Italian occupation , Itlians found the idea of deporting the Jews very unpopular. The same was in Bulgaria, or even Hungary. It was Hitlers pressure that sometimes resulted in parts of Jewery being deported. I do not know how many serious attempts have Germans made to deport the Jews in Albania after sept 1943 since this also dependednt on the availble statistics and data, and I do not know how many Albanians really succesfully resisted such German attempts. The fact that Albaninan SS succumbed to German pressure in Pristina speak fori itself, why would the albanian SS be different in Kosovo from the one in Albania?

From this standpoint we can not compare Albania's effor to the one that Denmark for instance provided. I mean Denmark was basically directly treatened by Germans, and they as a country organized to save all the Jews. I mean this is an endevoar worthwhile mentioning it.

Also the example of Netherlands where even the king started wearing the yellow star as a protest to the Jewish discrimination is noteworthy. Again during full fledge German occupation.

I am sure Albania had brave individuals yet, the conditions where different to make a comparison with let say Denmark or Netherlands as a country or on an individual level to Poland where holocaust was practiced to the most strictest degree.

After the war Jews were eseverely suppressed in Albania like everyone else. In 1991 they where almost all airlifted to Israel. The remainig few dozens fled in late 90's after years of plundering, chaos, crime and violence that reigned Albania and to a certain degree reigns it today.
Emphazis is mine.

Now, do you notice a "little" difference in the way the two different members addressed Korbius' question? And the tru/false information they present?

Besian

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