War crimes of the 14th SS Division

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Re: War crimes of the 14th SS Division

Post by David Thompson » 16 Mar 2010 23:05

Everybody -- Tone down the nationalistic polemics, please.

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AdaOg
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Re: War crimes of the 14th SS Division

Post by AdaOg » 17 Mar 2010 09:07

As Ukrainian you shiuld know that Galicia is not Podolia.

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Askold
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Re: War crimes of the 14th SS Division

Post by Askold » 17 Mar 2010 17:41

Let me repeat one more time - members of Galicia division did not engage in Podillia region. Therefore the statement that someone from Podillia area was attacked by Galicia division soldiers is untrue.

1900
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Re: War crimes of the 14th SS Division

Post by 1900 » 22 Mar 2010 02:31

I don´t know about big war crimes - of the 14th SS Division in Slovakia. First of all we have to understand, that many Galizien´s officers served in Slovak army. For example Kampfgruppe Wilder, which came first to fight rebels. Their commanding officer Wilder served in Slovak army in rank of captain. And Slovakia was on paper still German ally...

Something happened between 22 - 25th of October. According one source Galizian´s with POHG /slovak antipartisan unit/ killed 8 slovak deserters in village Nizna Boca, but there is another source claiming that there was no killing but a fight where died 4 persons. Nobody knows exactly...

I counted another 8 civilians /I can give names/ deaths during fights with partisans. And they burned some houses ...

By the end of january 45 division was leaving. Funny is, that 14th lost more men because of desertion than in real fighting. Partisan brigade Stefanik got 50 men and Suvorov partisans 63. According to Michal Smigel there was around 200 deserters from 14th. When they were leaving people were quite unhappy that they are gone. They were able to understand each other, so they prefered Galizian´s not Germans.

There are today even some Slovak reenactors of 14th SS Division. I fought against them last year /I was slovak rebel/. It was a good year for reenactors.
http://www.kvhzobor.sk/stranka/reenacti ... e-jednotky

Source of "War crimes of the 14th SS Division in Slovakia" are commie historians like Bohuslav Chnoupek.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bohuslav_Ch%C5%88oupek

Smart guy wrote stories about stories killing Gypsies near village Bela, mass murders in villages Kosecke Rovne, Zliechov, Rovne /14. oct./, Mladonov, Cicmany /4.december/, Pruzina /30. dec./ about brutality in prison Banska Bystrica and so on... His books are main source for war crimes of 14th. BTW Chnoupek was helping to "normalize" Czecho-Slovakia after soviet invasion in 68. Later minister in government and even ambassador in USSR. He wrote many books. One was about his travel on Danube, another about space traveling named Space conqueror (1961), or about pop art icon Andrew Warhol. His last book was about problems of serbian nation (2001 Dýka v chrbte). And many many about communism. I mention one: Communism begins today published in 1962 :) Chňoupek was even good friend of Tárik Azíz who was Vice President in Saddam Hussein regime and was helping him with czechoslovak tanks. Enough? I can continue...

His rubish books about ww2 /I have two or three somewhere/

1974 Generál s levom (about A. A. Asmolov and his partisans)
1984 Lámanie pečatí (another partisan book)
1989 Banderovci (here we go...)

There are many books with source named Chnoupek - it´s understandable, because in years 48-89 only commies could write about ww2. I believe he was a single one who mentioned 14th SS division.

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Re: War crimes of the 14th SS Division

Post by jaroslawlis » 22 Mar 2010 03:19

My father lived in Palikrowy during the WWII and frequently recalls the murder of 365 Polish civilians on 12th of March, 1944.
The execution was carried out by 4th police SS-regiment made up of Ukrainian soldiers of SS-Galizien.
This was a war crime. My father lost many family members and friends during that day.

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Re: War crimes of the 14th SS Division

Post by David Thompson » 22 Mar 2010 04:00

1900 -- You wrote:
Source of "War crimes of the 14th SS Division in Slovakia" are commie historians like Bohuslav Chnoupek.
If you have more accurate sources, please provide them for our readers. Most of the folks who come to AHF generally don't live in that area, don't speak the language, but would like to learn more about its history.

1900
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Re: War crimes of the 14th SS Division

Post by 1900 » 22 Mar 2010 05:19

There are many credible sources now. In central europe is growing new generation of historians and they do provide facts. And it´s quite easy find out what happened esp. to civilians. If somebody writes, that in village X died Y civilians than he should support this with facts. Slovakia during ww2 was not Africa and speaking again about civilians you can find birth certificate, house list, deat certificate, church chronicle etc...


E. Mudroňová - woman - shot into stomach when running away, later died - Kampfgruppe Wittenmayer
Šutliak - 6 monts old baby shot when his mother was running with him away - Kampfgruppe Wittenmayer
M. Kacera - man, artillery/mortar fire - Kampfgruppe Wittenmayer
M. Antošková - woman, artillery/mortar fire - Kampfgruppe Wittenmayer
Unnamed civilian number 1 from village Plesiva unit from 14th SS Division,POHG from Žilina, antipartisan unit Edelweiss.
Unnamed civilian number 2 unit from from village Plesiva SS Division,POHG from Žilina, antipartisan unit Edelweiss.
Unnamed 2 YO girl from village Plesiva- unit from 14th SS Division,POHG from Žilina, antipartisan unit Edelweiss.
Strnádl businessman - unit from 14th SS Division /hiding partisans/
Š. Ragan - man, unit from 14th SS Division /giving provisions for partisans/
And I found another unanmed 3 civilians from village Kvacany, all killed by artillery/mortar fire - Kampfgruppe Wittenmayer

POHG /slovak antipartisan unit/
Edelweiss /special anti-partisan unit composed of Germans, Soviet nationalities, Slovaks, under German command/
artillery fire could be
Unnamed /maybe partisans or deserters/

As you can clearly see, no mass atrocities.

more in article: 14. divízia Waffen SS Galizien v procese potlačenia Povstania na strednom Slovensku (1944) author is
Doc. PhDr. Michal Šmigeľ, PhD. /teaching at university/ PM me for contact mail
http://www.druhasvetova.sk/view.php?cis ... 2009020005

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RG
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Re: War crimes of the 14th SS Division

Post by RG » 22 Mar 2010 09:04

1900 wrote:There are many credible sources now. In central europe is growing new generation of historians and they do provide facts. And it´s quite easy find out what happened esp. to civilians. If somebody writes, that in village X died Y civilians than he should support this with facts. Slovakia during ww2 was not Africa and speaking again about civilians you can find birth certificate, house list, deat certificate, church chronicle etc...


E. Mudroňová - woman - shot into stomach when running away, later died - Kampfgruppe Wittenmayer
Šutliak - 6 monts old baby shot when his mother was running with him away - Kampfgruppe Wittenmayer
M. Kacera - man, artillery/mortar fire - Kampfgruppe Wittenmayer
M. Antošková - woman, artillery/mortar fire - Kampfgruppe Wittenmayer
Unnamed civilian number 1 from village Plesiva unit from 14th SS Division,POHG from Žilina, antipartisan unit Edelweiss.
Unnamed civilian number 2 unit from from village Plesiva SS Division,POHG from Žilina, antipartisan unit Edelweiss.
Unnamed 2 YO girl from village Plesiva- unit from 14th SS Division,POHG from Žilina, antipartisan unit Edelweiss.
Strnádl businessman - unit from 14th SS Division /hiding partisans/
Š. Ragan - man, unit from 14th SS Division /giving provisions for partisans/
And I found another unanmed 3 civilians from village Kvacany, all killed by artillery/mortar fire - Kampfgruppe Wittenmayer

POHG /slovak antipartisan unit/
Edelweiss /special anti-partisan unit composed of Germans, Soviet nationalities, Slovaks, under German command/
artillery fire could be
Unnamed /maybe partisans or deserters/

As you can clearly see, no mass atrocities.

more in article: 14. divízia Waffen SS Galizien v procese potlačenia Povstania na strednom Slovensku (1944) author is
Doc. PhDr. Michal Šmigeľ, PhD. /teaching at university/ PM me for contact mail
http://www.druhasvetova.sk/view.php?cis ... 2009020005
There is a huge difference between situation in Slovakia and former eastern areas of Poland.
In Slovakia atrocities related to single people (if I am wrong correct me), in Wolyn etc there were slaughtered entire villages and those who survived had more important things to do than to collect testimonies and additionally, Poles who survived usually escaped to Poland so many documents simply disappeared.
Additionally, for 14SS Slovaks were not enemies (only those who were armed and fighting), in Poland it was different and if you read the threads about Polish-Ukrainian struggles you will find out what I mean so behavior of 14SS in Slovakia can not be considered as a benchmark for their actions in Poland.
You wrote that Slovakia was not Africa, in case of former Polish territories this comparison is quite credible and demanding to have “hard” proofs is very convenient for war criminals.

1900
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Re: War crimes of the 14th SS Division

Post by 1900 » 22 Mar 2010 11:45

RG wrote:In Slovakia atrocities related to single people (if I am wrong correct me)
There was mass executions on both sides. For example Kremnicka, where died 747 persons /Einsatzkommando 14 and units from POHG/.

But, we are talking about 14th SS Division here. And they did not such things.

1900
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Re: War crimes of the 14th SS Division

Post by 1900 » 22 Mar 2010 12:11

RG wrote: and demanding to have “hard” proofs is very convenient for war criminals.
An ounce of proof is worth a ton of assertions.

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RG
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Re: War crimes of the 14th SS Division

Post by RG » 22 Mar 2010 18:36

1900 wrote:
RG wrote: and demanding to have “hard” proofs is very convenient for war criminals.
An ounce of proof is worth a ton of assertions.
1900 wrote: If somebody writes, that in village X died Y civilians than he should support this with facts. Slovakia during ww2 was not Africa and speaking again about civilians you can find birth certificate, house list, deat certificate, church chronicle etc...
[ quote]

With such an approach you would achieve nothing in case of war crimes in Wolyń where nearly entire Polish population was swept away. Who was to write death certificates when all inhabitants were burnt alive in the Church? Is such a case to find out there is needed more demanding historical work than read certificates and one should collect testimonies of survivors, everu piece of information and verify it.

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Re: War crimes of the 14th SS Division

Post by Melnyk » 22 Mar 2010 19:11

Hello

re alleged war crimes in Slovakia.

firstly the point has correctly been made that in late 1944 several Slovak nationals who had formerly served with the Slovak army were transferred to the 14 gal div as battalion commanders. for example Wildner, Podlesch, and Czermin. they all deployed with the 14 gal div to Slovakia.

next, please do not forget that at lest 10% of the 14 Gal Div was made up of Germans - that is to say almost all the staff, all the regimental / battalion commanders, all commanders of support units and the vast majority of the company commanders.

If a Ukrainian private was "ordered" to shoot someone by his senoir GERMAN commander, what should he do? refuse and be shot for disobeying orders or shoot as ordered to?

best wishes
Mike Melnyk

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Re: War crimes of the 14th SS Division

Post by David Thompson » 23 Mar 2010 15:18

A number of posts dealing with examples of German troops executed for refusing orders to kill civilians have been merged with the thread at http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=159649 - DT.

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Re: War crimes of the 14th SS Division

Post by Melnyk » 25 Mar 2010 17:25

Hi David,

Obviously you have raised a very valid point.

At this point in time I can only refer to two instances which might help.

During the course of my research I looked at several instances involving the punishment of Ukrainians from the Galician div. I found one example which was classified as “Failure to obey an order of a senior officer”. It involved a conscripted private Ivan Woloshchuk, a somewhat dim witted man who in truth was not really suitable for military service. In 1945, a newly appointed German company commander in the Jagdzug of WGR 31 ordered a parade without overcoats. Woloshchuk came out with one. The commander addressed him in German but W. did not understand what was said and replied in Ukrainian. He was charged with disobeying an order and sentenced to death by firing squad. Apparently the commander of WGR 31 Pannier found this to be most satisfactory. This information was cooborated by 2 officers from his company.

Whilst I do not wish to be pedantic, there is a second example which gives us some useful insight into this question of ‘disobeying orders’. It involves men from Gal.SS-Freiw. Rgt 5, although it must be acknowledged that at this time they were not a part of the Galician division. This regiment was deployed on anti-partisan duties on the eastern front around the area of Cholm in the Generalgouvernment. Here are some extracts of the German daily siutaution reports which describe how "Galician Ukrainian SS-Schützen" or simply "Ukrainian SS men"), took their weapons with them some having first killed their officers and ncos. For example;
"Cholm District. 9.March 1944, During the night of 7.3.44, in the Cholm region, 13 privates from II./Gal SS-Freiw.Rgt 5,(Bug) deserted presumably to the partisans, taking with them rifles overcoats, 2 machine pistols and two revolvers (0.8),"
"16.March 1944, Cholm, on the early morning of 13.3.44, in the Cholm region, 23 Galician Ukrainian SS-Schützen in field grey uniforms with overcoats, national badges [ie.; Nazi eagle emblem] on left arm SS runes on collar patches, left their Stützpunkt (fortified Station) Stulno, 0 516 (Bug line), with 21 machine guns, 2 machine pistols, 1 light pistol, 19 rifles, 6 pistols and the appropriate ammunition, after having killed two German nco's, presumably to go over to the partisans."
" Security sector Bug, 20 April 1944, In the night of 19.4, all Ukrainian SS men belonging to 5.Gal.-SS-Freiw.Rgts, fled from (Stützpunkt) 12 Hniszo, after killing three German ncos and wounding one officer. Details not known."

Now the penalty for desertion was death by firing squad and there are many known examples of deserters being killed in this way. I asked a former member of Gal. SS –Freiw.Rgt 5 who deserted why he did so and why they felt it necessary to kill the German nco’s in their unit before doing so. He replied “We joined the Galician Division to fight Stalin and the Red Army, not to fight Polish partisans. When we were ordered to engage the partisans we took the first opportunity to rid ourselves of the Germans and desert.”

Clearly these men knew the penalty for desertion and but as they were unhappy with their orders chose to nonetheless.

I hope this helps

best wishes

Mike Melnyk
Last edited by Melnyk on 25 Mar 2010 22:27, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: War crimes of the 14th SS Division

Post by David Thompson » 25 Mar 2010 22:06

Thanks, Mike. The readers prefer sourced answers, and being scholarly isn't the same thing as being pedantic.

I'll let this sit here briefly for folks to read it, and then move it to the other thread at http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=159649 , where the rest of the posts on this issue are.

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