Poland: ~6 million or ~10 million victims of WW2 ?

Discussions on the Holocaust and 20th Century War Crimes. Note that Holocaust denial is not allowed. Hosted by David Thompson.
Peter K
Host - Allied sections
Posts: 3657
Joined: 12 Jul 2006 19:17
Location: Poland

Poland: ~6 million or ~10 million victims of WW2 ?

Post by Peter K » 16 Apr 2010 21:38

Taken from: http://swkatowice.mojeforum.net/temat-vt6262.html

And google translated: http://translate.google.pl/#

Dr. Stephen FH Pągowski 12 through October 2008

Toronto, Canada
-------------------------------------------------- ----------------
Polish war losses in 1939-1945.

After repeated many times over half a century, the number 6 million Polish citizens were killed during the war, became a historical truth, although demographic data suggest about two times greater losses. The political basis for a falsified report is the Office of War Reparations from 1947, calling into question findings of which is not difficult but Polish historians are reluctant to correct it.

At the end of September 2007 our Journal [1] published an article by Krzysztof Jasinski recalled a loss, referring to renewed by the Foundation for Polish-German Reconciliation [next: P-NP] reports on the losses and damages Polish war in 1939-1945 [ 2], published in 1947 by the Office of War Reparations (the Council of Ministers) in Warsaw [next: BOW]. Both publications, important for Polish history, deserves wider attention and discussion.

Mr. Jasinski article provides factual reports to supplement and expand the small number of fragments (and translated into English and German) is certainly worthy of inclusion in the publication of the P-NP, making it a valuable item documenting Polish Golgotha of the war years. P.Jasiński He also drew attention to the possibility of an underestimation of losses by BOW in 1947, but no differences in estimates due to the seriousness of the matter. A pity. Similarly, introduction to Spawozdania BOW, feathers prof. Mariusz Muszynski, also does not include such estimates as well as the comparative statement of territorial losses, population density and displacement, not the figures quoted by the Polish Government in Exile, or critical contemporary studies in the text, published half a century ago. And in this light can be feared that the overall goal is to encourage historians (not only Poles, but also people who speak German or English language) to consider reports as the only credible publications zrujnowaniu Polish by the Germans in the years 1939-45.

Reports of renewed criticism can easily be limited to claims about the lack of footnotes to resume publishing, especially in Chapter 5 Fri Depletion of the population. It should be noted Warsaw Symposium on Society and Demography, Warsaw's History of the Society of December 13, 2005, of which Mr Jasinski and prof. Muszynski not mentioned, but it's difficult to believe that they did not know about it [3]. Symposium participants emphasized the need to clarify the significant difference between the number lost by the citizens II.RP [more than 12 million] and clearly manipulated the number 6.028tys. killed, repeated as (anonymous) Report BOW [4] consistent with J. Berman issuing the emancipation decree of 1946 [5], defining legalized (the "Polish" the patriots of Moscow) Polish population by 27 007 thousand. Poles and Jews living in Poland before the war, including 5 193 thousand. legalized Eastern Poland Polish citizens. In vain to search for information in the Report of the Polish population of 1939, while Mr. Jasinski lists 8 million Soviets, Polish citizens [6], found "upstream" as belonging to the Soviet Union. It can therefore be inferred that before the war Borderlands (captured in September 1939 by the Eastern aggressor) were approximately (8 = 5.193), 13.2 million people, while the American Encyclopedia published in 1955, gives 10 770 thousand. persons, including (most since 1944 repatriated to the West of the Bug), over 4 million Poles [7]. Unfortunately, neither in Wprowadzemiu remember there is no mention that on that legalization did not recognize the Polish government in exile or the Nuremberg tribunal, ruling in 1946 about the loss of 33% of the Polish population [8] (rather than 22% served by BOW [9]) .

Most painful for at least three generations of Poles was and still is the loss of relatives and friends murdered by the Nazis during the war and the tragedy of Poland was (and still result) lose a substantial part of educated citizens and leaders. Let us try to check the veracity of the Bow and establish a reliable number of citizens of the Second Republic in late August 1939, citing the work of emigre historian, professor of Jagiellonian University, Father Krzesińskiego: based on reports to the League of Nations in August 1939 listed 35.8 million Polish citizens [10]. This figure, like other Polish demographic data, has been the subject of analysis and speculation in various environments: in the Land of Polish demographers have identified it as a 35.1 million [11]. the information published in London lists "as a plausible" number of 35 339 thousand., while the proportion of Poles (ethnically) was 69%, 8.2% Jews, and others (including Lemkos and Polish Tatars, remaining in Poland after the war ) - 2.5% Total 79.7% or 28 165 thousand. [12] II legalized citizens. RP - more than a million more than it has been demonstrated in Spawozdaniu BOW (27 007 thousand).. You can see more clearly that the Communists of Moscow citizens frymarczyli Second Republic, since the actual population of 35.8 million (in / g Krzesińskiego), this number is obviously higher by more than 400 thousand. residents and is 28 533 thousand. Other (100-79,7 =) 20.3% of the population, ie (35 339 thousand. X = 0.203) 7 174 thousand. people, less than "top down" set of 8 million by about 1 million. - Poland has been torn out along with kresy no right to compensation. The difference in the number (= 7.174-5.193), around 2 million Polish citizens, is therefore an unknown fate of compatriots from the outbreak of war.

Often, as a basis for demographic analysis of contemporary Polish adopted CSO Statistical Yearbook of 1931 without the Polish census, carried out after recovery Zaolzie (in 1938 showing the massive movement of population in connection with the construction of the Central Industrial District and Gdynia and the settlement of veterans in the Borderlands War of 1920), without reference to the Soviet censuses (1940, 1945) and German (1943 - is in the Library CSO). In none of publicly available publications are not included depletion of the large Polish community in Germany and when it should be noted that the forgoing Polish minority (except Jews) in eastern Poland, for example Poleszuków, Hutsuls and "local" for the Soviet state, underestimates the actual loss of pre-war multi-ethnic population of the Republic. Were at the same time there has been a (Polish?) Acceptance of the political aspirations of both the occupiers of these communities at odds with the mother.

On the basis of post-war census of 1946 (23.6 million [13]) * and the continuity of the demographic trend of the mid 1970s, the state of the Polish population living in post-war Poland from the Bug River to the Oder at the end of 1945 can be estimated at 23 , 2 million people, which allows you to incorporate the indirect return to the country about a million Poles, among which are at the end of the war in occupied Germany and the Polish Army in the West as well as about 4 million Poles repatriated until 1957 from the East. If validated by 27 007 thousand. subtract the number killed in the war, Poles and Polish Jews, determined by the Bow in 1947, and which is now even canon of knowledge (6 028 thousand. people), we get about 21 million - that number miejszą more than 2 million from that determined in the postwar Inventory A common (23.6 million). So what happened to the 2 million. Countrymen?

Among the people captured by the Soviets in 1939 was (supposedly) 4 222 thousand and 971 thousand Poles. Jews [14]. Other National mniejszsci Eastern Poland would therefore (= 8/13.2), 60.6%, ie, although most of that already in 1931 there were minority. Just compare this result with the CSO Statistical Yearbook 1931 (p. 23): Poles, Jews and others (without the Ukrainians, Ruthenians and Russians - are respectively: 5300 1156 1009 =) 7 465 thousand. Polish citizens out of 13.2 million., ie 56.6% (or more than 70%, if you believe that American encyclopaedia). But keep in mind that a clear majority of Ukrainians and Ruthenians indeed occurred in 1931 in two, from the 7th Kresy voivodships (Volyn and Stanislawow). Giving land Polish veterans and their families over the next 8th years probably changed the population relations conducive to the assimilation of "local", increasing the participation of Poles in the ethnic composition of our Eastern Poland.

It is a pity that the publication of the P-NP did not refer to the number of Polish minorities narorodowych among the citizens of the Second Republic in 1939: for example, the above-mentioned information exchanged 2.9 million Polish Jews out of 35 339 thousand. Polish citizens, ie 8.2%. The government of Warsaw in 1949, in the negotiations on deposit accounts in Switzerland, gave the number of 2 million Polish Jews were murdered [15] which shows that conducting negotiations with Switzerland, the Ministry of Foreign Affairs was aware of nearly a million wymordanych less than the Office of War Reparations zaserwowało [ 16] of the same Government. It is worth repeating often comment on the post-war publications of the number of 3.5 million Polish Jews were completely depleted, this figure appeared in the Proceedings of the Demographic Conference 1941 (Glasgow University), and was derived from statistics on religious affiliation for the Second Republic, attributing to Judaism around 10% of Polish society. This number rozpropagował already in 1943, Shmuel Zygielbojm the Government in Exile in London and since 1945 the center of Lublin. This figure first appeared in Poland a year later in the book of prof. Hirszfeld [17] and is currently served by the IPN [18]. In Bulletin No. 1 of the Main Commission for Investigation of German Crimes in Poland are, however, that with a 50% higher than average fertility rate for the entire country before the war, the number of Jews in Poland was 2.7 million in 1939 As can be seen, although to ensure that "The Commission proceeded to test the results of which nobody will be able to challenge" remained a significant margin for the manipulation of statistics and different interpretations of the data. The result is a surprising number of Polish victims of the adjustment of concentration camps after the political transformations in the late 1980s, as symbolized by the change in the National Monument inscription uncovered at Birkenau in 1967, a contract, then at least 4 million victims of Auschwitz, the reduced (without formal approval by the IPN and despite many protests) in 1994 to 1.5 million by the Auschwitz Museum [19].

There are more elements of the Polish population balance for the years 1939-1945, waiting for analysis: the wound is not healed (and not counted) is a Soviet genocide of Polish officers, policemen, Polish intelligentsia and gentry as well as the murder of Poles in Ukraine and Volhynia ... The report did not include the BOW ( five hundred thousand?) incorporated into the Polish army of occupiers and those who died in their service. A major factor, over nearly 6 years of war, was less reproduction of society and the next germanizowania zruszczenia Polish children at high natural mortality. BOW limited information on this matter to a footnote: "regardless of the loss of population (6 028 thousand). There was a decrease of 1 215 thousand. birth "[20], but the loss factor table was not specified ... Maybe, for simplicity, the considerations may be considered a zero population growth during 6 years of war, skip the huge pressure of the Jews fleeing from the west to the eastern territories in 1939 and also neglect the value of the forced labor performed by several million Polish citizens for the invaders - maybe ... But without at least commenting on these factors, given by the P-NP calculations Polish losses are clearly (at least twice?) understated.

Demographic analysis is well worth the qualification of the German people to the category of "Jude", different from the Polish term "Judaism" and reckoning in Nazi Germany to "Jude" immigrants from the East after World War I. (Poles and Russians) [21]. To assess the merits (next) exodus of Jews to the East in 1941 with the borderland occupied by the Germans invaded the Soviet Union and the deportation of Jews living in Poland and the Poles to Siberia. It should also take into account a large number of Jews in the Land of successfully hiding from the Germans, and coming back from German concentration camps, war changes the names and mass emigration to Palestine and the West. These factors have significantly reduced the amount specified by the BOW number about 3 million Polish Jews were murdered [22] - must therefore be concluded that the number of bowled over BOW been manipulated, or adulterated so as historians have recognized the above-mentioned Sympzjum in 2005 Nb. the Diaspora Jews in Poland could not have killed more people than before the war had tymbardziej that visibly contributed to the consolidation of the postwar Communist government, acting in a large and visible group, and during the years 1945-1948 with the Polish mass leaving. Thus, the number of Polish Jews who lost their lives during the war is substantially lower than repeated 3 million, not acting together with the Poles and other minorities in Poland after the war 6 028 thousand. victims, but at least 8 million - the number killed during the war, Poles, it is not 3 but not more than 5 or even 6 million. I certainly do not run out of compatriots in the transports to Auschwitz and other Nazi extermination, in spite of the BOW number of Polish prisoners of Auschwitz and Majdanek in the "tens of thousands of people with casual street roundups," and to recognize the exclusivity of the gas chambers and crematoria for completely exterminated the Polish Jews [23] . The mention in the 836 thousand. people who survived imprisonment, indicating that more than once did not survive [24], indicates overt manipulation that requires correction. Tymbardziej easily that P-NP Foundation is known for the residual number of Poles, former concentration camp prisoners, survivors of more than half a century since the end of the war. As a complement to this information, it is worth adding that, overall, a valued and respected emissary AK, Jan Karski, a lecture at Stanford University (Michigan) in March 1995, quoted the number of 3 million. ethnic Poles murdered in German concentration camps [25].

Lack of clear understanding on how to balance population and transparent (Polish) Polish Golgotha statement statistics II. World War half a century after the surrender of Germany, niepochlebnie shows demografach and Polish historians, but not powininno result in a lack of commentary on renewed reports BOW. Symptomatic in the Report is to avoid a recall Grodzka Surveys conducted by the Ministry of Justice in Warsaw in the years 1944/45 to estimate the losses of Polish population. In one of his publications, Professor Klafkowski [26] pointed out the environment of Polish historians to neglect the development of this scientific survey, leaving it unclear: whether the Institute of National Remembrance can not (or do not want? ") Address contained in the survey findings Grodzka, cedując its statutory duties on Museums and Foundations? Certainly in the commentary on renewed reports BOW worthwhile to find a reference to the Surveys and the Department of Minister Stephen Wierbłowskiego delivered at the Conference srawie Treaty of Peace with Germany (London, 1947) and includes demographic information and also to decisions, acting until the mid-1980s -these, the Main Commission for Investigation of German Crimes in Poland (since 1948 Main Commission for Investigation of Nazi Crimes in Poland, in 1991 acquired by IPN).

So far, the inertia of the IPN and the Government III. RP to the consistent policy of the German state of German revisionist rozbisurmaniły (editor of Der Spiegel) udawadniającego in 2002, that Auschwitz could not have killed more than half a million Jews, [27]. But in Poland, held a decade earlier by Polish taxpayers, the Museum of Auschwitz in 1992 reduced the number of Poles who were murdered there, with over one million [28] to 75 thousand [29]. That reduction is supported by the publication of Professor. Łuczak of the Polish Academy of Sciences panel of the killing by the Nazis, Soviets and Ukrainians, 1939-1945 (only) to 2 million Poles, including 800 thousand. are victims of fighting and direct military operations [30]. Another historian of the headed by prof. Gieremka Institute of History, Professor. Krzysztof Jasiewicz led the speculation further, and then reduced the number of Polish victims, saying that "Polish losses (non Jews) in World War II probably did not exceed 1 million victims, which did not detract from our suffering and the war effort" [31].

These examples just show our trustworthiness and indolence to effective policy NKVD [32] and the Germans but also the role of "liberal" Polish historians, to minimize the extent of Polish war losses and liability claims. And add to that already in 1954 76th in German universities researchers were engaged in revisionism: the Munich operation since 1951, Osteuropa Institut (foundation controlled by the Ministry of Education), died in 1952, was formed Istitut für Südosteuropa; since 1949 working in Stuttgart für Deutsche Gessellschaft Osteuropakunde; in Göttingen Arbeitsgemeinschaft für Osteuropaforchung; in Lüneburg in 1946 issues of the Oder-Neisse deal Nordostdeutsche-Akademie and the Göttinger Arbeitskreis, Marburg Johann Gottfried Herder Institut since 1950, emerged the Commission d / s Pomerania, Baits, Wartheland [] and Silesia, in 1951 in Berlin, Osteuropa Institut was established [33]. German researchers are not idle, these institutions have been multiplied and strengthened in the last quarter, helping to claim the Association of Deportees - in Poland may be concerned about long-term goals, based on the "truth" of the German state policy, setting out in Article. 116 of the Constitution's limits on Polish territory, which does not interfere with the procedures for entering the Republic Fedaralnej representative to the UN Security Council.

It is no secret that the Foundation for Polish-German Reconciliation was financed by the Germans, and cash benefits for the surviving victims of crimes in Poland, or slave labor does not stand in any proportion to the damage the Polish Nation suffered. It is difficult to believe in the sincerity of provocation prof. Muszynski to back Polish-German relations on truth, since it did not want to see and comment on the figures BOW or manipulation of the People's Guard, the report said. It can therefore conclude: BOW copy reports of 1947 r, no complete footnotes leaves too many missed information and (unnecessary) question marks, contrary to the Polish national interest.



(-) Dr. Eng. Stefan Pągowski, Toronto December 13, 2007.



*) Messenger (Toronto, 6 / 214, 8-14 February 2008, p.35) - Postcards from the calendar under the date 14 February 1946: "The first postwar census in Poland: 24 million. Residents, including 2.2 million Germans. "These data are taken from: A thousand years of Polish history - Timeline (Kurkiewicz W., Tatomir A., W. Zurawski: Warsaw, 1980): s.190 - quote:" 1946-14 II: census (the first after the liberation). Population was 23 929 757 inhabitants. In western and northern provinces lived 5 022 100 people (including about 2 million Germans). " This suggests that the actual number of Polish citizens (without the Germans are still displaced) in early 1946 to about 22 million, not 23.6 million, so the number of Polish citizens were killed during the war could exceed even the 9 million people. As a contribution to the demographic balance of Polish Borderlands: the deportation of the people of the Soviet aggression included not only the Poles but also niebłagonadiożnych Jews, Ukrainians and

Belarusians - citizens of the Second Republic, and then excluded from the "amnesty" by which (zawdzięczanej gene Sikorski) General Anders brought more than 100 thousand exiles from the Soviet Gulag, which was present when 20 to 40 million people. See Henryk Piekarski Znad Neman through Siberia to Canada (published in Rome: Gregorian University, 1967 ss.300): p. 88, 96, 159th


Article published Polish Voice No. 49 / 2007 (Toronto, 12-18 Dec 2007, p. 19, 22 and 23).

[Upgraded October 12, 2008 - SP].



-------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------

[1] Krzysztof Jasinski: recalling the loss (New York: Our Daily, No. 228/2941, 29-30 September 2007, ss.7) - available at: http://www.fpnp.pl / images / pdf / loss / pdf.

[2] Report of the Office of War Reparations on the loss and damage in Polish war of 1939-1945 (New York: Foundation for Polish-German Reconciliation, 2007 ss.64 in Polish, and translate English and German) - available on the internet: http://www.sprawozdanie loss \ fpnp.

[3] Jaroslaw Rdzanek, Stefan Pągowski, John Gawęcki: Report from the Society's History Seminar at the Institute of History, December 13, 2005 (Warsaw, 2005 ss.4) - available on the internet: http://www.PolandPolska.org: How many people lost in the Commonwealth the years 1939-45.

[4] The Bow (op.cit.): P. 32

[5] M. Gniazdowski: "The Polish Quarterly of International Affairs, 2008, No.1, s.99-113 - for Monika Bialek: personal losses and victims of repression under the German Occupation (New York: Our Daily, Dodadek historic IPN, August 29, 2008) . The document in the collection of GUS, Warsaw.

[6] Jasinski, K.: Recalled ... (Op.cit.) P.3.

[7] (ed.), Joseph Laffan: The Universal Standard Encyclopedia (New York: Unicorn, 1955 vol.1: s.6717.

[8] Alfonso Klafkowski: concentration camps as a matter of International Law (Warsaw: OWN, 1968): s.70 also: Tadeusz Cyprian and Jerzy Sawicki: Unknown Nuremberg (New York: Book and Knowledge, 1965): s.316.

[9] Report BOW (op.cit.): P. 37

[10] Andrew Krzesin: Poland's Rights to Justice (New York: Devi-Adair, 1946, page 120): s.72 - available at the National Library in Warsaw.

[11] Ed. Wladyslaw Czaplinski and Tadeusz Ładogórski: The Historical Atlas of Poland (Wroclaw: State ed. Cartographical, 1981, pp 56): p. 31 and 38

[12] Reference Polish (London: ed. Union of Poles in Exile from the fund of the Ministry of Labour and Social Welfare, Government of the Polish London, 1946): s.19.; This number (35 339 thousand). Was reproduced in The Universal Standard Encyclopedia (op cit.) s.6717.

[13] The Historical Atlas of Poland (op.cit.) S.38.

[14] Reports BOW (op.cit.) Footnote on p. 32.

[15] Tom Bower: Nazi Gold (New York: Harper / Collins, 1997, pp 381): p. 210 and 264th

[16] Report of the Bow (op.cit.): P. 32

[17] Hirszfeld: History of a Life (York: Reader, 1946, pp 370): s.337, 349 and 354th

[18] John Żaryn: Good Neighbourhood (Toronto: Polish Voice 39 / 1-7.10. 2008).

[19] Society for the Protection of Auschwitz: Bulletin nr.21/1994, including former Political Prisoners Association in Chicago: Open letter to the Director of the Museum from 31 August 2004) - available on the Internet: http://www.PolandPolska.org Fri Not only did we.

[20] Report of the Bow (op.cit.) S.33.

[21] Len Deighton: Blitzkrieg-from the Rise of Hitler to the Fall of Dunkirk (London: TriadPanther, 1985 ss.382): s.45.

[22] Report of the Bow (op.cit.) P.27 and 32

[23] Ditto: p.27.

[24] Ditto: S.36.

[25] of Stanford University News, 7 March 1995.

[26] Alfonso Klafkowski: Nazi concentration camps as a matter of international law (New York: 1968 ss.104 OWN): s.8, 16.39.

[27] Fritjof Meyer: Die Zahl der Opfer von Auschwitz. Neue durch neue Erkenntnise Archivfunde (Berlin: Deutsche Gesellschaft für Gegenswartsfragen des Ostens: monthly Osteuropa, May 2002).

[28] Jan Sehn: Obż concentration of Auschwitz-Birkenau Auschwitz-Birkenau (New York: GKBZH, ed. Law, 1964 ss.179): p. 28 - the land the Second Republic and CCCP to the camp przywleczono 2.3 million people, including 600 thousand. Polish Jews.

[29] Franciszek Piper: How many people died in Auschwitz (Oswiecim: PMAB, 1992 ss.131): s.92.

[30] Czeslaw Luczak: Opportunities and difficulties in balance of Polish population, 1939-1945 (Warsaw: PAN-recent Polish history vol 2 / 1994), p. 9-14, 203 thousand. killed and 700 thousand. Polish prisoners of war as a result of September 1939 gave the British historian Edwin Hoyt in his book Angels of Death (New York: Forge, 1994 pp 304): p. 148

[31] Krzysztof Jasiewicz: What is IPN? (New York: Gazeta Wyborcza, March 28, 2006).

[32] "Even before the war and immediately after the NKVD and the KGB had its office which dealt with only slandering Polish and sending false information to the West. This is an old tsarist tradition. Even Catherine II bestowed gifts of people who write bad about Poland. "- Joseph Szaniawski: The Kremlin services (Nasz Dziennik, 25 September 2008, No. 225/3242).

[33] (Ed.) and Tadeusz Stanislaw Kozanecki Borowicz: Thinking about Poland. Guiding Ideas "horizons" 1956-1971 (Brussels / Radom: Polwen in Radom, 2006, pp 250): s.152 - 155th The new institute: Institute for Intercultural Migrationsforschung und Studien (IMIS), Universität Osnabrück, D - 49069 Osnabrück

User avatar
Marcus
Member
Posts: 33931
Joined: 08 Mar 2002 22:35
Location: Europe

Re: Poland: ~6 million or ~10 million victims of WW2 ?

Post by Marcus » 17 Apr 2010 10:12

Please use the [quote] feature when quoting others to make it clear what is your own words and what is not, thanks.

/Marcus

michael mills
Member
Posts: 8807
Joined: 11 Mar 2002 12:42
Location: Sydney, Australia

Re: Poland: ~6 million or ~10 million victims of WW2 ?

Post by michael mills » 19 Apr 2010 08:01

Domen,

This sort of exaggeration verges on the ridiculous.

The source you quote states that the population of Poland in 1946 (ie in its new borders, between the Oder-Neisse Lione on the West and the Curzon Line on the East, was 23.6 million. These were nearly all ethnic Poles, since the Germans living east of the Oder-Neisse Line had been expelled; the figure also includes the ethnic Poles who had previously lived east of the Curzon Line, but had been transferred into the reconfigured Polish State.

Now your source also claims that the population of Poland in 1939, in its borders of that date, was 35.8 million, of which only a part was ethnically Polish. The exact proportion that was ethnically Polish is in dispute; Polish nationalists claim 70%, but Belorussians and Ukrainians claim that it was lower, since the ethnic identity of a lot of people living in the Eastern Provinces of Poland was unclear.

If we assume that two-thirds of the population of Poland in 1939 was ethnically Polish, then the ethnic Polish population in that year would have been of the order of 24 million, including the ethnic Poles living east of the Curzon Line, in the territories annexed by the Soviet Union in 1939 and reclaimed by it in 1945. Since those ethnic Poles were transferred out of Soviet territory after 1945, into the Territory of the Polish People's Republic, the Polish census figure of 1946 is directly comparable with the estimated size of the ethnic Polish population in 1939.

Comparison of those figures shows that there was hardly any loss of ethnic Polish population between 1945, only a few hundred thousand. Obviously, under normal circumstances the ethnic Polish population would have increased between 1939 and 1945, so that increase was also lost. But the statistics suggest that the losses to the ethnic Polish population between 1939 and 1945 cannot have been greater than one million, if that.

Of course, there were losses incurred by the non-Polish part of the population in the territories annexed by the Soviet uNion in 1939, eg by ethnic Ukrainians and Belorussians, and especially by the Jewish minority, but those losses should really be included in total Soviet losses, rather than in Polish losses.

The most valid estimate of the population losses suffered by the Polish State between 1939 and 1945 would consist of:

1. The entire loss incurred by the ethnic Polish part of the population of Polish State as it was in 1939, including that part living east of the Curzon Line; and

2. The losses incurred by the non-Polish part of the population that lived between the western border of Poland as it was in 1939 and the eastern border established in 1945, excluding losses incurred by the ethnic German minority living in that region, which sould be included in the losses incurred by the German people; the great bulk of these losses would be those suffered by the Jewish minority, which was almost entirely killed.

If the estimate is made on the above basis, then it will be seen that the Jewish losses were vastly greater than the losses suffered by the ethnic Polish population. About two million Jews lived in the area between the western border of Poland in 1939 and the Curzon Line, and the great majority of them perished, whereas the total losses suffered by ethnic Poles do appear to be less than one million.

Peter K
Host - Allied sections
Posts: 3657
Joined: 12 Jul 2006 19:17
Location: Poland

Re: Poland: ~6 million or ~10 million victims of WW2 ?

Post by Peter K » 19 Apr 2010 08:35

These were nearly all ethnic Poles, since the Germans living east of the Oder-Neisse Line had been expelled
The census was from February of 1946. Most Germans were deported after that (1,63 million by the end of 1946). In May 1945 there were ca. 4,5 million minorities withing new borders of Poland (incl. 3 million in Ziemie Odzyskane).

In February of 1946 there were still 2,3 million ethnic Germans there. The first agreement between the Soviet Military Administration and the Polish Communist Government concerning deportations of Germans was signed on 05.05.1946 (further ones were being signed in 1947, 1948, 1949) and the Polish-British agreement concerning deportations of Germans from Poland was signed on 14.02.1946. Basing on those agreements, 1/3 of Germans from Poland were deported to the Soviet occupation zone and 2/3 to the British occupation zone. Deportations came to an end in 1950. Before 1946 noone was deported - only those who escaped the Red Army dimnished the German population then. The Nazi government on its own ordered the evacuation of ethnic Germans from those territories in January of 1945.

Moreover - in 1950 there were still between 1,8 and 1,6 million Germans in Poland (total population was 25 million). This number doesn't include those Germans who didn't admit that they were Germans and Polonized their surnames.
Now your source also claims that the population of Poland in 1939, in its borders of that date, was 35.8 million.
The birth rate in Poland was so high that on 01.0.1942 the population should have numbered 36,2 million and on 01.01.1947 the population should have numbered 38,3 million. Natality must be included in counting losses. The nominal decrease of population between 1939 and 1946 was thus 11,2 million but the factual decrease of population (when taking into account the growth of population resulting from natality) was higher - around 14,4 million.

Other (than this article) data, says that the population of Poland in 1939 was around 35 million. Population of areas within the borders of Poland in 1946 (so including also eastern Germany in 1939) was 32,1 million. Biological casualties were 6 million (including 3,1 million Polish and 2,8 million Jewish). Deportations to Germany by the Nazis - 2,3 million. Deportations to the East by NKVD - 1,5 million. Population decrease due to border changes in 1945 - 8,7 million. Total decrease during WW2 - 18,5 million. Increase due to natality during WW2 - 1,2 million and population of the so called "Regained Land" (eastern Germany in 1939) was 4,5 million just after the end of WW2. Population just after the end of WW2 in 1945, yet before the census of 1946 - 22,2 million. Deportations and migrations in period 1946 - 1950 as well as increase due to natality caused that in 1950 population was 25 million (including 1,8 - 1,6 million Germans).

So population of Poland (new borders) in May 1945 was 22,2 million - including 17,7 million living in the areas of pre-war Poland up to the Curzon line (without areas annexed by the USSR) and 4,5 million in the areas annexed from Germany in 1945. Out of these 17,7 million, 16,5 million constituted pre-war population (1,2 million were new-born). Population of this area in 1939 was around 22 million, including ca. 2,3 million Jews, ca. 18,7 million Poles, ca. 0,6 million Germans, ca. 0,5 million Ukrainians (and population of Kresy in 1939 was ca. 13,5 million, including ca. 5,5 million Poles, ca. 5 million Ukrainians, ca. 2 million Belarussians and ca. 1 million Jews). This means the decrease of population in the areas of pre-war Poland (but not including Kresy Wschodnie annexed by the Soviet Union) of around 6,6 million. No more than around 2 million of them could be Jews. To this we must add population decrease in Kresy.

The territory of Kresy Wschodnie annexed by the USSR was about 200,000 square km.
The area of Poland annexed by the III Reich in 1939 was around 189,000 square km.
The exact proportion that was ethnically Polish is in dispute; Polish nationalists claim 70%, but Belorussians and Ukrainians claim that it was lower.
Belorussian and Ukrainian nationalists claim it was lower, basing on non-existant data.

-------------------------------------------

So we've got the following: A) = annexed by the III Reich in 1939; B) = annexed by the USSR in 1939:

1939:

A) - 22.0 million
B) - 13.5 million

A) - 18.7 million Poles, 2.2 million Jews, 0.5 million Ukrainians, 0.6 million Germans
B) - 5.5 million Poles, 1.0 million Jews, 5.0 million Ukrainians, 2.0 million Belorussians

A) + B) - 24.2 million Poles, 3.2 million Jews, 5.5 million Ukrainians, 2.0 million Belarussians, 0.6 million Germans

1945:

A) - 17,7 million (- ca. 1,2 million from natality = ca. 16.5 million); losses = 5.5 million *
B) - 8,7 million (- est. 0,7 million from natality = est. 8 million); losses = 5.5 million

* Note that number A) in 1945 includes about 1 - 1,5 million minorities (and only 15 million Poles). Because the so called "Ziemie Odzyskane" were inhabited by about 3 - 3,5 million Germans just after the end of WW2, out of total population of 4,5 million (according to the census from February of 1946 - there were still 2,3 million Germans there; most of them were deported by the end of 1946 - 1,63 million; further 0,58 million in 1947 and in 1948 ).

Losses in the area B) included:

1) Deportations by the NKVD to Siberia and prisons - 1,5 million, including:

- 56% (or 0.85 million) Poles
- 30% (or 0.45 million) Jews (it's interesting to notice that the USSR persecuted 45% of all Jews in Kresy)
- 14% (or 0.2 million) Ukrainians and Belarusians

2) Polish escapes from the area B) to the area A) between 1942 and 1944:

- 0.6 million Poles

We must ablate this number from the total of 16.5 million in the area A) = 15.4 million (losses = 6.1 million)

3) Wolhynian genocide:

- 0.15 million Poles
- 0.03 million Ukrainians

4) Holocaust since 1941:

- est. 0,5 million Jews

After ablating the above numbers from 5,5 million, we still have 2,72 million more losses in the area B).

Some German deportations (in total 2.3 million) included people from the area B) since 1941.

5) Repatriation of ethnic Poles from Kresy 1944 - 1946 (but most of them in 1945 and 1946):

- 1.2 million

6) Second repatriation of ethnic Poles from Kresy 1955 - 1959:

- 0.23 million

-------------------------------------------------

Losses in the area A):

- 6,1 million, including no more than 2 million murdered Jews and up to 1,5 - 2 million deported to Germany

michael mills
Member
Posts: 8807
Joined: 11 Mar 2002 12:42
Location: Sydney, Australia

Re: Poland: ~6 million or ~10 million victims of WW2 ?

Post by michael mills » 19 Apr 2010 12:32

Natality must be included in counting losses.
Domen,

If you want to include a reduction in natality due to wartime conditions as an element in the losses incurred by the population of Poland, then your use of the term "victims" is blatantly dishonest.

A person who loses his life can be called a victim, but a child that is not born is obviously not a victim.

But the big problem with your material is that it does not adequately define what it is measuring.

One entity that could be measured is the losses to the population that lived within the borders of the Polish State as it existed in 1939. But such a measurement would be essentially meaningless.

For example, the population that lived within the borders of the Polish State as it existed in 1939 included about 700,000 ethnic Germans, who suffered losses between 1939 and 1945. Some of the losses incurred by the ethnic German part of the population residing in the Polish state were persons killed by ethnic Poles in the first few days of Spetember 1939, for example the ethnic Germans killed in Bromberg/Bydgoszcz on 3-4 September. Other losses were the deaths of ethnic Germans serving in the German Wehrmacht.

Do you want to include those losses in your total, Domen.

Other losses occurred during the ethnic conflict between Poles and Ukrainians in Volhynia and East Galicia in 1943. Ethnic Ukrainians killed ethnic Poles and ethnic Poles killed ethnic Ukrainians, but all of the persons killed had been part of the population of the Polish State in 1939.

Domen, do you want to include ethnic Ukrainians killed by ethnic Poles in your total of the population losses incurred by POland?

A far more meaningful entity to measure would be the losses to the specifically ethnic Polish part of the population of the Polish State as it was in 1939. As I wrote, that could be done by estimating the size of that ethnic Polish component in 1939 with the ethnic Polish component of the reconstituted Polish State in 1946, which would include the ethnic Poles transferred from the former Eastern Territories of Poland that remained part of the Soviet Union after 1945.

In order to make an accurate calculation, one would have to exclude from the estimate of the number of ethnic Poles in 1939 those persons who were considered Polish by the Polish authorities and therefore recorded as Poles in 1939, but who were considered as Belorussians, Lithuanians or Ukrainians by the Soviet authorities in 1945 and therefore were not trnasferred across the Curzon line.

Let me illustrate my point by a hypothetical mathematical example. Let us assume for the purposes of this example that in the Polish territories annexed by the Soviet Union in 1939 there lived one million persons (a hypothetical figure which I am not claiming to be historically accurate) who were considered Polish by the Polish authorities, but were not considered Polish by the Soviet authorities. Let us assume that a certain of them, say 200,000, perished between 1939 and 1945, leaving 800,000 survivors. When the time came to transfer the ethnic Polish population out of this territory, the Soviet authorities did not transfer those 800,000 survivors since they did not consider them to be ethnically Polish.

Anyone comparing the official figure for the pre-war ethnic Polish population with the post-war ethnic Polish population might conclude that an additional one million had disappeared, presumably dead. But of that million, only 200,000 had died, and they were included in the total Soviet population losses. The remaining 800,000 were still alive, but no longer counted as Poles.

The way to avoid the above problem is not to include that one million in the figure for the ethnic Polish population in 1939.

So what we need is an accurate estimate of the number of ethnic Poles who lived within the borders of Poland in 1939, an estimate that excludes all persons not recognised as Poles by the Soviet authorities and therefore not subject to transfer after 1945, and an accurate estimate of the number of ethnic Poles living within the new borders of Poland after 1945. Any difference between the two figures would then have to be adjusted for the number of ethnic Poles who had lived within the borders of Poland in 1939 but in 1945 were living outside the new borders of Poland, eg Poles living in the west or remaining within the Soviet Union.

An adjusted figure arrived at by the above methodology would give a reasonable estimate of the losses of the ethnic Polish population between 1939 and 1945, that is the number of excess deaths. But even that figure would need to be verified by making estimates of actual deaths from various causes, eg the number of Poles who perished during the campaign of September 1939, the number repressed by the Soviets between 1939 and 1941, the number executed by the germans or who perished in concentration camps, the number who were killed in anti-partisan warfare, the number killed in the Warsaw Uprising and similar events, the number killed in inter-ethnic fighting ,etc.

it should be borne in mind that any attempt to estimate the size a population would have reached by a given point in time in the absence of an historical event that did actually occur will produce very unrelaible results, since those results are totally dependent on the assumed parameters. Thus, the greater the rate of population growth assumed, the higher will be the apparent deficit.

Domen, there is a certain amount of smoke and mirrors in the figures you quote. You have not included one of the most important, namely the total number of ethnic Poles transferred after 1945 from the territories that remained with the Soviet Union.

You say that in May 1945, the population of Poland in its new borders was 22.2 million. Does that include the ethnic Poles transferred from the territory east of the Curzon Line? Had that transfer occurred by then?

As for Germans remaining in post-war Poland, the books that I have read (for example those by Elizabeth Wiskemann) say that about one million former citizens of Germany who were considered "Autochthones" by the Polish Government, eg the Masurians of east Prussia and the "Water Poles" of Upper Silesia, were allowed to remain; all others were expelled across the Oder-Neisse Line. No source that I have seen supports your claim of up to 1.8 former German citizens remaining in Poland.

Accordingly, about one million former German citizens would need to be deducted from the post-war population of Poland in order to arrive at a figure that can be compared with the pre-war figure of ethnic Poles living within the borders of Poland as they were in 1939.

You say that the population of Poland in 1950 was 25 million; deducting about one million former German citizens leaves about 24 million, who were nearly all ethnic Poles. That figure may be compared with the number of ethnic Poles which you claim were living within the borders of Poland in 1939, namely 24.2 million. However, the 1950 figure does not include ethnic Poles living outside Poland, eg in the West, or remaining in the Soviet Union.

Furthermore, from your figure of 24.2 million ethnic Poles in 1939 we would need to deduct those residents of the eastern Territories who were not considered ethnic Poles by the Soviet authorities and hence not eligible for transfer to post-war Poland.

Over all, it appears that the ethnic Polish population in 1950 was about the same as it had been in 1939, meaning that over a decade there had been no net natural increase, ie the total number of births equalled the total number of deaths over that period.

We may posit that in the period 1939-45, the death rate of the ethnic Polish population increased and the birth rate decreased, such that deaths exceeded births and there was a demographic deficit. In the period 1945-50, the birth rate increased and the death rate decreased, such that births exceeded deaths and there was a demographic surplus. The demographic surplus of 1945-50 was equal to the demographic deficit of 1939-45, and thus merely cancelled it out.

The problem is that we do not know how much of the demographic deficit of 1939-45 was caused by an increase in the number of deaths, and how much by the decrease in the number of births. As I wrote above, births that did not occur cannot be called victims; only premature deaths, over the normal death rate, can be called victims.

michael mills
Member
Posts: 8807
Joined: 11 Mar 2002 12:42
Location: Sydney, Australia

Re: Poland: ~6 million or ~10 million victims of WW2 ?

Post by michael mills » 19 Apr 2010 12:47

Domen,

The material you posted contained this statement:
Thus, the number of Polish Jews who lost their lives during the war is substantially lower than repeated 3 million,
Is that a correct translation of the Polish original? Could you check it for us please.

If it is a correct rendition of the Polish original, ie it was what Dr Stephen Pagowski actually said in Toronto on 12 October 2008, do you support that statement?

Do you believe that the number of Polish Jews who lost their lives during the war is substantially lower than three million?

Peter K
Host - Allied sections
Posts: 3657
Joined: 12 Jul 2006 19:17
Location: Poland

Re: Poland: ~6 million or ~10 million victims of WW2 ?

Post by Peter K » 19 Apr 2010 15:16

A person who loses his life can be called a victim, but a child that is not born is obviously not a victim.
I was talking about those children who were born between 1939 and 1945, not those who should be born.
No source that I have seen supports your claim of up to 1.8 former German citizens remaining in Poland.
I didn't write anything like that. Only several hundreds thousand remained (and are here until today - for example nowadays over 30% of population of the Opolskie Voivodeship are Germans, they rule in 50% of poviats there).

I wrote that when the census of 1946 took place (February), there were still 2,3 million of them in Poland.
do you support that statement?
Depends what does "substantially" mean. If substantially means 0,5 million, then I support this statement. More than 2,5 million Polish Jews couldn't die in WW2 since the total pre-war population of Poland was 3,2 million Jews and out of this number 0,45 million were deported by the Soviets in period 1939 - 1945 and 0,25 million survived the war.

3 million Polish Jewish victims of WW2 is thus an exaggerated number. Up to 2,5 million could perish.
Last edited by Peter K on 19 Apr 2010 17:43, edited 1 time in total.

Okyzm
Banned
Posts: 602
Joined: 24 Mar 2008 04:14
Location: Wrocław, Poland

Re: Poland: ~6 million or ~10 million victims of WW2 ?

Post by Okyzm » 19 Apr 2010 17:42

A person who loses his life can be called a victim, but a child that is not born is obviously not a victim.
If Germans shot a pregnant women(a common event in the East) why shouldn't we count the child as victim. Likewise if the death of unborn child was the result of delibrate starvation policy or blocking medical access.
3 million Polish Jewish victims of WW2 is thus an exaggerated number. Up to 2,5 million could perish.
There could be a confusion to this. Nazis classified as Jews many Poles. The statistic number of Jews as counted by Poland before the war could be very different from what Germans counted as Jews in Poland.
Some of the losses incurred by the ethnic German part of the population residing in the Polish state were persons killed by ethnic Poles in the first few days of Spetember 1939, for example the ethnic Germans killed in Bromberg/Bydgoszcz on 3-4 Septembe
The losses of German paramilitary groups engaging in sabotage and diversion in Poland are below 3.000 so that isn't much.

Peter K
Host - Allied sections
Posts: 3657
Joined: 12 Jul 2006 19:17
Location: Poland

Re: Poland: ~6 million or ~10 million victims of WW2 ?

Post by Peter K » 19 Apr 2010 17:46

And what could be the losses of 0,6 million Germans who lived in Poland, if the losses of 85 million Germans in total were about 5 million military and 2 million civilians? Statistically no more than 0,05 million (or 50,000) could die.

michael mills
Member
Posts: 8807
Joined: 11 Mar 2002 12:42
Location: Sydney, Australia

Re: Poland: ~6 million or ~10 million victims of WW2 ?

Post by michael mills » 20 Apr 2010 01:58

Domen,

You still need to specify exactly what is the claim you are making.

Are you trying to say that 10 million persons who were citizens of Poland in 1939 died between 1939 and 1945?

Or are you trying to say that 10 million ethnic Poles died during that period?

If the former, then the total would include ethnic German who were citizens of Poland in 1939 and died while serving in the Wehrmacht. It would include ethnic Ukrainians in Volhynia and East Galicia who died in the ethnic conflict between Poles and Ukrainians. I somehow do not think you would want to include those deaths in the total of "Polish victims".

Domen, please let us know what it is you mean when you say "Poland: 10 million victims". Then we can have a reasoned discussion based on hard statistical evidence that is clearly defined.
3 million Polish Jewish victims of WW2 is thus an exaggerated number. Up to 2,5 million could perish.
I think that is something you need to discuss with someone like Uberjude, rather than with me. I am content to sit back and let the Polish and Jewish members of the Forum take up the cudgels on that issue.

Okyzm
Banned
Posts: 602
Joined: 24 Mar 2008 04:14
Location: Wrocław, Poland

Re: Poland: ~6 million or ~10 million victims of WW2 ?

Post by Okyzm » 20 Apr 2010 02:05

I am content to sit back and let the Polish and Jewish members of the Forum take up the cudgels on that issue.
I don't see any problem, as who Polish scholars count as Jews living in pre-war Poland are not who Nazis counted as Jews.
Szymon Datner-a well known scholar about German atrocities mentions for example, that many prisoners were suprsied to learn they are Jews, as they considered themselfs Poles.

In short there is nothing strange in the fact that Germans mass murdered more people they considered as Jews then the amount of people in pre-war Poland that considered themselves to be Jews.

David Thompson
Forum Staff
Posts: 23213
Joined: 20 Jul 2002 19:52
Location: USA

Re: Poland: ~6 million or ~10 million victims of WW2 ?

Post by David Thompson » 20 Apr 2010 05:32

Michael -- You wrote:
I think that is something you need to discuss with someone like Uberjude, rather than with me. I am content to sit back and let the Polish and Jewish members of the Forum take up the cudgels on that issue.
There's no need for cudgels, or for that matter, personal remarks about other forum members in this discussion. Our readers are content with sourced information such as Domen121 has provided, and can make up their own minds about the various estimates. If there are radically different alternative figures, our learned members can provide them. If you have nothing to add, enjoy your contentment in peace, and wait for a thread which engages your interest.

michael mills
Member
Posts: 8807
Joined: 11 Mar 2002 12:42
Location: Sydney, Australia

Re: Poland: ~6 million or ~10 million victims of WW2 ?

Post by michael mills » 20 Apr 2010 07:49

What happened to the post by Uberjude, containing a link to a highly anti-Jewish article by Stefan Pagowski, the person who is the source of the material posted by Domen in the first message on this thread?

Has it been censored?

Peter K
Host - Allied sections
Posts: 3657
Joined: 12 Jul 2006 19:17
Location: Poland

Re: Poland: ~6 million or ~10 million victims of WW2 ?

Post by Peter K » 20 Apr 2010 13:46

You still need to specify exactly what is the claim you are making.

Are you trying to say that 10 million persons who were citizens of Poland in 1939 died between 1939 and 1945?

Or are you trying to say that 10 million ethnic Poles died during that period?
The first one! It is quite obvious from the title of this thread ("Poland: [...] victims of WW2").

I don't know if 10 or less - but rather more than the official 6 (which probably includes only Poles and Jews).
I think that is something you need to discuss with someone like Uberjude.
Why? I know that many people don't realize that the Soviets persecuted Jews. About 0,45 million Jews from eastern Poland were deported by the NKVD. So they couldn't perish in the Holocaust. Some of them could die in the USSR.

uberjude
Member
Posts: 676
Joined: 19 Oct 2009 02:51

Re: Poland: ~6 million or ~10 million victims of WW2 ?

Post by uberjude » 20 Apr 2010 14:53

Sorry for the confusion, Michael, I self-censored, since I wasn't sure if I was in the mood for a big message board fight in case it breaks out. But since the cat's out of the bag, here's an article Pagowski co-authored. Readers may judge for themselves how credible he is on the subject of Polish Jewry, and as for his numbers, his figures for the pre-war polish Jewish population is smaller than any credible source gives (for a discussion on this board about that population, see this: http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=153827, and his numbers for Jews deported by the Soviets is higher than any I've ever seen (he gives 450,000; the high number, as far as I've seen, usually doesn't go beyond 300,000. While I agree that Poles often get unfair treatment from some Jews, and I sympathize with their frustration over the hostile oversimplification of the long and complex relationship between Jews and Poles, Pagowski definitely has his own issues on the subject, and I'd hesitate to accept his figures as authoritative. But again, readers may judge.

http://polskawalczaca.com/viewtopic.php?t=4866

Return to “Holocaust & 20th Century War Crimes”