The Polish area under Prussian control

Discussions on other historical eras.
Davey Boy
Member
Posts: 1504
Joined: 10 Mar 2002 13:51
Location: Australia

Re: Did Poland have territorial plans against Germany?

Post by Davey Boy » 02 Sep 2013 04:43

poldas wrote:Ad. Davey Boy;

Relationships Poland - Prussia and Germany.
This is not a simple problem;
Prussia is a country until mid-Slavic.
I know it's weird.
It's not weird. German Prussia inhaled large areas of Poland during the Polish partitions, so it was only natural that the Germans had some success in Germanizing parts of Poland and some of its populace.

The point I was making before was that Poland did not have any territorial ambitions against Germany during the 1920s/30s that went beyond its wish to regain most of what it had lost to German Prussia during the Polish partitions.

Hawker
Member
Posts: 10
Joined: 01 Sep 2013 00:26

Re: The Polish area under Prussian control

Post by Hawker » 19 Sep 2013 08:41

Davey Boy wrote:
Hawker wrote:Such criterion is a bit diffucult for the Polish interests since Poland (especially cities) was multi-culti already in times of the first Republic of Both Nations, and Prussia did a grat deal of work to perform germanization. I don't think that criterion of who is majority in the area, should be considered when Prussia takes the multi-culti land by force, sends it's own people there and forces local inhabitants to change their culture to German.
Certainly, the Prussians Germanized a lot of Polish regions illegally. But once that was done, these regions changed character and could no longer be recognized as Polish.
It depends of the criterion. If you say that these regions changed their character, you would say as well that eg. when somebody invades other country kills all inhabitants, then sends there own citizens, so changes character of this land, the previous owner has no rights towards the land because it changed character. In my opinion, any country that controlls the land since any sort o states were created in the area, has rights to take back it's land if it was illegaly take by force for a short time, even if the previous inhabitans were totally wiped out by the invader and replaced by it's own people.

For this reasons Poland wanted to keep Poznań and didn't want to give up Gdańsk entirely. As well some parts of Silesia (three Polish uprisings are fair enough proof that some of this land kept Polish character even despite the fact that it was lost by Poland in the medieval.) But other extensions are out of the question.
Davey Boy wrote:
Ancient boarders or extension was certainly not in mind of Polish leaders. At least not in Piłsudski's mind, because he was always inspired by the Commonwealth.
Yes, the main point to note here is that Poland and Poles by and large weren't interested in any German land, not even in areas that were once Polish but then Germanized by the Prussians.

gebhk
Member
Posts: 451
Joined: 25 Feb 2013 20:23

Re: The Polish area under Prussian control

Post by gebhk » 24 Sep 2013 10:18

I note with interest an earlier discussion about the reference to an ending of 'slavery' in 1921. I would suggest this is a somewhat academic discussion caused by the lack of a literal translation of the word 'niewola'. In Polish is has a wider meaning than 'slavery' - literally a state of having no will. The implication in modern usage is of free will or self-determination constrained by others. This appears to me to be a very apt description of the entire period of the partitions - notwithstanding the sentiment many Poles bear Napoleon, I doubt you could describe the Duchy of Warsaw as a truly independent state.

Peter K
Host - Allied sections
Posts: 3669
Joined: 12 Jul 2006 19:17
Location: Poland

Re: Poland: ~6 million or ~10 million victims of WW2 ?

Post by Peter K » 01 Feb 2014 00:30

[Moved from "Poland: ~6 million or ~10 million victims of WW2 ?"]

Coming back to Silesia Off-Topic for a brief moment (page 4):

The 30 Years' War (1618–1648) and epidemies that followed took a heavy toll in Silesia - particularly in the region of Breslau / Wrocław. Later that population loss was compensated with new immigrants, vast majority of whom came from the West - from Germany:

The same was the case in Pomerania, which also was among the regions where that war took the heaviest toll. The highest losses were in Pomerania, Mecklenburg, Palatinate, Hesse and Württemberg. In these regions losses are estimated at even up to 90%:

Percentage of population losses as the result of that war by area (up to 33%, between 33% and 66%, more than 66%):

Image
There are words which carry the presage of defeat. Defence is such a word. What is the result of an even victorious defence? The next attempt of imposing it to that weaker, defender. The attacker, despite temporary setback, feels the master of situation.

Peter K
Host - Allied sections
Posts: 3669
Joined: 12 Jul 2006 19:17
Location: Poland

Re: Poland: ~6 million or ~10 million victims of WW2 ?

Post by Peter K » 03 Feb 2014 18:46

Germany won the Silesian plebiscite in 1921 by a small margin - and to a large extent thanks to votes of local Poles.

A relatively large part of Upper Silesian Poles voted for Germany rather than for Poland in that 1921 plebiscite.

This is showed by the data I post below:

http://s14.postimg.org/nrkdssrch/1921_Plebiscyt_B.png
1921 Plebiscyt B.png
http://s3.postimg.org/dy5lxvtxv/Plebiscite_1921_B.png
Plebiscite 1921 B.png
And % of "Polish votes" (votes for Polish lists) in 1919 municipal elections (data published by Karol Firich):

Oppeln Stadt - 7%
Gleiwitz Stadt - 24%
Kattowitz Stadt - 19%
Ratibor Stadt - 9,5%
Beuthen Stadt - 31,5%
Konigshutte - 41%
Leobschutz - no Polish list
Neustadt in OS - 28%
Ratibor - 62%
Kreuzburg* - 48%
Hindenburg - 75,5%
Kattowitz - 73%
Tarnowitz - 78%
Oppeln - 61%
Tost-Gleiwitz - 72%
Beuthen - 76%
Cosel - 46%
Gross Strehlitz - 70%
Lublinitz - 67%
Rybnik - 79%
Rosenberg - 56%
Pless - 85%
Namslau* - counted together with Kreuzburg

In some counties Polish lists got much bigger % of votes in 1919 elections, than was the % of votes for Poland there in 1921.

========================================================

Among reasons why a relatively large percentage of Polish-speaking Upper Silesians voted for Germany were economic reasons, which told them: "stay in Germany - here you can earn more money than in Bolshevik-devastated Poland". The fact that so many Upper Silesians voted for Poland was still largely a "merit" of Bismarck and his persecutions of Polish language and of Catholicism.

In counties where majority of local Poles were Protestants, majority of votes during the 1921 plebiscite were for Germany. That's because Protestantism was not as persecuted by Bismarck as Catholicism, so hostility towards Germany did not grow there.
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
There are words which carry the presage of defeat. Defence is such a word. What is the result of an even victorious defence? The next attempt of imposing it to that weaker, defender. The attacker, despite temporary setback, feels the master of situation.

Peter K
Host - Allied sections
Posts: 3669
Joined: 12 Jul 2006 19:17
Location: Poland

Re: Poland: ~6 million or ~10 million victims of WW2 ?

Post by Peter K » 04 Feb 2014 20:53

By comparison here are the results of the plebiscite in East Prussia in 1920, in the middle of the Polish-Soviet war:

http://postimg.org/image/ie5zvsrz3/
Plebiscite OP 1920.png
According to some sources, in total 13 municipalities voted mostly for Poland (3 in Kreis Osterode, 1 in Kreis Neidenburg, 3 in Kreis Allenstein, 1 in Kreis Roessel, 5 in Kreise Stuhm and Marienwerder). But most of them were enclaves surrounded by territories which voted for Germany. So only several border villages were given to Poland as the result of the plebiscite:

Villages given to Poland and percent of votes for Poland in 1920 in those villages:

Polish name / German name - % of votes for Poland in the plebiscite

Małe Pólko / Kleinfelde - 44%
Kramowo / Kramershof - 50%
Bursztych / Aussendeich - 79%
Janowo / Johannisdorf - 48%
Nowe Lignowy / Neu Liebenau - 58%
Lubstynek / Klein Lobenstein - 65% (93 votes for Poland, 51 for Germany)
Napromek / Gut Nappern - 51% (45 votes for Poland, 43 for Germany)
Groszki / Groschken - 93% (69 votes for Poland, 5 for Germany)
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
There are words which carry the presage of defeat. Defence is such a word. What is the result of an even victorious defence? The next attempt of imposing it to that weaker, defender. The attacker, despite temporary setback, feels the master of situation.

User avatar
henryk
Member
Posts: 2264
Joined: 27 Jan 2004 01:11
Location: London, Ontario

Re: Poland: ~6 million or ~10 million victims of WW2 ?

Post by henryk » 06 Feb 2014 19:53

Re ethnic Poles voting for Germany in the plebiscites:
I recall an exhibition in a Museum in 1994, probably in Opole, which provided data which showed that a major reason for the German victories was due to non-resident Germans voting, ie born there but not resident.
For East Prussia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/East_Pruss ... uote]After the vote, the Poles felt disadvantaged by the Versailles Treaty stipulation which enabled those who were born in the plebiscite area but not living there any more to return to vote. Approximately 152,000 such individuals participated in the plebiscite.[66] (66= Rhode, Gotthold. Die Ostgebiete des Deutschen Reiches, Holzner-Verlag Würzburg, 1956.)[/quote]Also claims of fraud and manipulation:
The German side tried to sway the voters in the area before the plebiscite using violence, Polish organisations and activists were harassed by German militias, and those actions included murder; the most notable example being the killing of Bogumił Linka a native Masurian member of the Polish delegation to Versailles, who supported vote for Poland; his death described as "bestial murder", after being brutally beaten by German militias armed with crowbars, metal rods, and shovels, his ribs were punctured by shovel, only barely alive and bleeding additionally from neck and head, he was taken to hospital where he died.[54][55] After his burial the grave of Linka was defiled.[56] Masurs who supported voting for Poland were singled out and subjected to terror and repressions.[57] Names of Masurs supporting Polish side were published in German newspapers, and their photos presented in German shops; afterwards a regular hunts were organised after them.[58] In the pursuit of Polish supporters the local Polish population was terrorized by German militias[59] Local "Gazeta Olsztyńska" wrote "Unspeakable terror lasted till the last days[of the plebiscite]"[60] At least 3,000 Warmian and Masurian activists who were engaged for Polish side had to flee the region out of fear of their lives.[61] German police engaged in active surveillance of Polish minority and attacks against Polish activists.[62]
Curiously the Wiki article on the Silesian plebiscites does not mention the non-resident vote:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Upper_Silesia_plebiscite

Peter K
Host - Allied sections
Posts: 3669
Joined: 12 Jul 2006 19:17
Location: Poland

Re: Poland: ~6 million or ~10 million victims of WW2 ?

Post by Peter K » 07 Feb 2014 00:30

I suppose similar situation was in Eastern Poland, with many non-ethnic Poles being loyal citizens of Poland. Ethnic composition of Eastern Poland (Białystok, Lublin, Lwów, Wilno, Nowogródek, Polesie, Wołyń, Tarnopol and Stanisławów Voivodeships - today entire Lublin and parts of Białystok & Lwów Voivodeships are still in Poland) according to the 1931 census:

http://forum.axishistory.com/download/f ... &id=318207
Polacy Kresy D.png
There are of course disputes whether Poleshuks and Ruthenians should be counted as separate groups or rather as part of Belarussians and part of Ukrainians respectively. The policy of the Polish government in 1931 was to count them separately. It seems that Germans in their censuses had been using similar policies to divide Poles, Kashubs, Mazurs, Silesians, etc. before.

=====================================

Here links to more of similar maps:

Poles in part of Eastern Poland which is now Lithuania:

http://konsnard.wordpress.com/2011/06/1 ... nej-litwy/

Poles in part of Eastern Poland which is now Belarus:

http://konsnard.wordpress.com/2011/06/1 ... bialorusi/

Poles in part of Eastern Poland which is now Ukraine:

http://konsnard.wordpress.com/2011/06/1 ... h-ukrainy/

Poles in pre-war Lithuania, pre-war Latvia and pre-war Soviet Republics of Belarus and Ukraine:

http://konsnard.wordpress.com/2011/06/1 ... ch-ogolem/
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
There are words which carry the presage of defeat. Defence is such a word. What is the result of an even victorious defence? The next attempt of imposing it to that weaker, defender. The attacker, despite temporary setback, feels the master of situation.

Peter K
Host - Allied sections
Posts: 3669
Joined: 12 Jul 2006 19:17
Location: Poland

Re: Poland: ~6 million or ~10 million victims of WW2 ?

Post by Peter K » 08 Feb 2014 04:16

German government started to divide Poles into "Poles proper", "Kashubs", "Mazurs" and "Silesians" relatively late - after 1850.

Here is a German (Prussian) map from year 1847, which doesn't do this - it has no such groups, only "Polacken" everywhere:

Image

Image

Red line is border between Prussian and Russian partition zones in Poland.

Boundaries of areas with majority of population being "Polacken" according to this map highlighted:

Image

BTW - this map still shows situation after 75 years of Prussian government-sponsored German colonization in partitioned Poland.

The source of this "Polish propaganda map" is:

Image

======================================================

And here - to compare with situation in 1847 - language boundaries around year 1650:

Pink - Polish majority
Blue - German majority
Olive green - Prussian majority
Yellow - Sorbian majority
And also Lithuanian-speaking areas in the north-east.

Image

No "German strip" along the Vistula River ranging from Danzig in the north to Thorn in the south.

That "German strip" was created later - after 1650 and before 1850. Most likely between the First Partition and 1850.

====================================================

Example of government-sponsored German colonization in occupied (partitioned) Poland during the 1800s:

Image
There are words which carry the presage of defeat. Defence is such a word. What is the result of an even victorious defence? The next attempt of imposing it to that weaker, defender. The attacker, despite temporary setback, feels the master of situation.

Peter K
Host - Allied sections
Posts: 3669
Joined: 12 Jul 2006 19:17
Location: Poland

Re: The Polish area under Prussian control

Post by Peter K » 08 Feb 2014 14:01

It is interesting how many language / ethnic groups this map from 1847 has for Italy alone... 20:

Image

And in France there are even more because... 22 language / ethnic groups (10 South French and 12 North French).

On the other hand, this map knows no "Kashubs", "Silesians" or "Mazurs" - they are all counted as "Polaken":

Image

German propaganda started to divide the Poles into several groups only after 1850, apparently.
There are words which carry the presage of defeat. Defence is such a word. What is the result of an even victorious defence? The next attempt of imposing it to that weaker, defender. The attacker, despite temporary setback, feels the master of situation.

Peter K
Host - Allied sections
Posts: 3669
Joined: 12 Jul 2006 19:17
Location: Poland

Re: The Polish area under Prussian control

Post by Peter K » 08 Feb 2014 17:11

Early expansion of Poland from 940 to 999:

http://postimg.org/image/rr79bdy1r/

Image

Similar maps - early expansion of Poland from 880 to 990:

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

========================================================

As for Pomerania:

Pomerania - at that time just a collection of tribes (no duchy and no state existed there) became part of the Polish state around year 970, conquered by duke Mieszko I (see the map below, which shows the expansion of Poland from 940 to 999). In 972 the battle of Cedynia was fought between Poland and Saxon Eastern March - Poland won, preserving its rules over Pomerania, the border became more or less the Oder River.

Pomeranian duchy was for the first time founded by Polish governors of Pomerania, who became briefly independent from their overlords and declared themselves dukes in 1037. That brief period of independence lasted until 1047. The first duke of Pomerania was Siemomysł (Zemusil in Latin), who was for the first time mentioned by sources in 1046. In 1047 Pomerania was again reunited with the rest of Poland. In 1079 it briefly regained independence again, until 1116 (Eastern Pomerania) - which became directly incorporated to Poland - and 1122 (Western Pomerania) - which continued to exist as separate duchy, but was a vassal state of Poland. Before 1116 Pomerania was one region, there was no division for Eastern and Western part - which came into existence only in 1116. In 1181 the duchy of Pomerania (Western part) became vassal state of Denmark, so Poland lost control over it. The Eastern part - which started to be called Pomerelia (while the name Pomerania was started to be applied only to Western part) was ruled by Polish governors - being part of senioral province of Poland - until 1222. In 1222 Polish governor of Pomerelia declared himself a Duke, and founded a duchy there, declaring independence from the High Duke of Poland (at that time Leszek the White). Pomerelia remained one of many Polish duchies, though. Later Pomerelia became part of the reunited Kingdom of Poland in 1294. But then it was captured from Poland by the Teutonic Order in 1309. It remained under Teutonic rules until 1455, when it rebelled against the Teutonic Order and asked the Polish king to reunite it with the Kingdom of Poland. Finally in 1466 the war came to an end and the Teutonic Order officially recognized the reunification of Pomerelia with Poland. Most of Pomerelia - with the exception of Danzig - was lost by Poland during the First Partition in 1772. Danzig was lost during the Second Partition - in 1793.

===================================

Battle of Cedynia (now Zehden) in 972 was a conflict for influence in Pomerania between Poland and Saxons:

This battle determined the fate of Pomerania for the next 200 years:

http://www.dobroni.pl/foto_news/1_bitwa_pod_cedynia.jpg

Image

======================================

Map below shows location of major Polish tribes in the 8th and the early 9th centuries:

Green colour = heavily forested territories

Image

With English translations:

Image

Around 90% of Poland was covered by forest at that time.
There are words which carry the presage of defeat. Defence is such a word. What is the result of an even victorious defence? The next attempt of imposing it to that weaker, defender. The attacker, despite temporary setback, feels the master of situation.

Peter K
Host - Allied sections
Posts: 3669
Joined: 12 Jul 2006 19:17
Location: Poland

Re: The Polish area under Prussian control

Post by Peter K » 08 Feb 2014 17:13

Here about Polonization of German settlers who came to Poland throughout ages:

http://historum.com/european-history/57 ... tcount=505
There are words which carry the presage of defeat. Defence is such a word. What is the result of an even victorious defence? The next attempt of imposing it to that weaker, defender. The attacker, despite temporary setback, feels the master of situation.

Peter K
Host - Allied sections
Posts: 3669
Joined: 12 Jul 2006 19:17
Location: Poland

Re: Gdansk restored to Poland after WW1?

Post by Peter K » 08 Feb 2014 19:39

Interesting roll-over of the (...) kashubians into the Polish nazional conzeptum.
Kashubians were originally one of many Polish tribes. In two links below I (Domen) wrote more about this:

http://historum.com/european-history/65 ... stcount=38
http://historum.com/european-history/65 ... stcount=30

Archdeacon Maciej from Płock wrote in year 1339:

"One and the same language prevails both in Pomerania and in Poland, since all people living there speak Polish".

German historian Dr. Lorenz in his book "Geschichte der Kaschuben" on page 150 wrote:

"Übrigens waren Polnisch und Kaschubisch ihrem Klange nach damals wohl noch einander sehr ähnlich."

Which translates (more or less):

"In any case at that time Polish speech and Kashubian speech were very similar to each other."

=====================================================

During 1922 elections majority of Kashubians voted for Polish nationalists - National Democracy under Roman Dmowski:

Very large number voted also for Christian Democracy, which was in coalition with Dmowski's National Democracy:
1922.png
The results of elections to Polish Parliament in Pomerelian Voivodeship in 1922:

1. Tczew (Dirschau) County - voter turnout 81,2%

National Democracy - 46,8%
Christian Democracy - 32,2%
German minority party - 16,9%
Polish Socialist Party - 3,1%
Centrum Mieszczańskie - 0,9%
Polish People's Front "Piast" - 0,1%

2. Starogard (Preussisch Stargard) County - voter turnout 81,5%

National Democracy - 67,5%
Christian Democracy - 23,2%
German minority party - 6,7%
Polish People's Front "Piast" - 1,1%
Polish Socialist Party - 1,0%
Centrum Mieszczańskie - 0,5%

3. Kościerzyna (Berent) County - voter turnout 87,6%

National Democracy - 65,1%
Christian Democracy - 17,9%
German minority party - 15,6%
Polish People's Front "Piast" - 0,6%
Polish Socialist Party - 0,5%
Centrum Mieszczańskie - 0,3%

4. Kartuzy (Karthaus) County - voter turnout 82,0%

National Democracy - 78,5%
Christian Democrac - 11,2%
German minority party - 8,6%
Polish People's Front "Piast" - 1,4%
Centrum Mieszczańskie - 0,3%
Polish Socialist Party - 0%

5. Wejherowo (Neustadt) County - voter turnout 82,1%

National Democracy - 56,2%
Christian Democracy - 29,7%
German minority party -10,6%
Polish People's Front "Piast" - 2,9%
Centrum Mieszczańskie - 0,6%
Polish Socialist Party - 0%

6. Grudziądz (Graudenz) City - voter turnout 74,2%

National Democracy - 47,1%
Christian Democracy - 28,3%
German minority party - 16,2%
Polish Socialist Party - 4,3%
Centrum Mieszczańskie - 3,1%
Polish People's Front "Piast" - 0,7%
Communist party - 0,3%

6 b. Grudziądz (Graudenz) County - voter turnout 78,9%

Christian Democracy - 40,3%
German minority party - 26,0%
National Democracy - 23,9%
Polish People's Front "Piast" - 6,4%
Polish Socialist Party - 2,7%
Centrum Mieszczańskie - 0,7%
Communist party - 0%

7. Świecie (Schwetz) County - voter turnout 80,1%

National Democracy - 46,3%
German minority party - 23,2%
Christian Democracy - 23,0%
Polish People's Front "Piast" - 4,9%
Polish Socialist Party - 1,6%
Centrum Mieszczańskie - 1,0%

8. Tuchola (Tuchel) County - voter turnout 88,1%

National Democracy - 55,7%
Christian Democracy - 26,3%
German minority party - 11,8%
Polish People's Front "Piast" - 6,1%
Centrum Mieszczańskie - 0,1%
Polish Socialist Party - 0%

9. Chojnice (Konitz) County - voter turnout 82,2%

National Democracy - 63,6%
Christian Democracy - 16,4%
German minority party - 16,0%
Polish People's Front "Piast" - 2,4%
Polish Socialist Party - 1,0%
Centrum Mieszczańskie - 0,5%
Communist party - 0,1%

10. Sępolno (Zempelburg) County - voter turnout 84,8%

German minority party - 50,8%
National Democracy - 29,7%
Christian Democracy - 16,8%
Polish People's Front "Piast" - 1,8%
Centrum Mieszczańskie - 0,9%

11. Toruń (Thorn) City - voter turnout 80,8%

National Democracy - 70,8%
Christian Democracy - 18,7%
German minority party - 9,7%
Centrum Mieszczańskie - 0,6%
Polish People's Front "Piast" - 0,2%

11 b. Toruń (Thorn) County - voter turnout 80,3%

National Democracy - 47,2%
Christian Democracy - 33,8%
German minority party - 16,0%
Polish People's Front "Piast" - 2,9%
Centrum Mieszczańskie - 0,1%

12. Chełmno (Kulm) County - voter turnout 79,6%

National Democracy - 42,7%
Christian Democracy - 32,3%
German minority party - 19,8%
Polish People's Front "Piast" - 4,2%
Centrum Mieszczańskie - 1,0%

13. Wąbrzeźno (Briesen) County - voter turnout 82,7%

National Democracy - 46,5%
Christian Democracy - 26,8%
German minority party - 17,5%
Polish People's Front "Piast" - 8,6%
Centrum Mieszczańskie - 0,6%

14. Brodnica (Strasburg) County - voter turnout 84,2%

National Democracy - 62,5%
Christian Democracy - 23,3%
German minority party - 9,3%
Polish People's Front "Piast" - 4,7%
Centrum Mieszczańskie - 0,2%

15. Lubawa (Loebau) County - voter turnout 86,7%

National Democracy - 73,7%
Christian Democracy - 21,6%
German minority party - 3,0%
Polish People's Front "Piast" - 1,7%
Centrum Mieszczańskie - 0%

16. Działdowo (Soldau) County - voter turnout 80,9%

National Democracy - 39,0%
Christian Democracy - 29,6%
German minority party - 27,9%
Polish People's Front "Piast" - 3,3%
Centrum Mieszczańskie - 0,2%

17. Puck (Putzig) County - voter turnout 94,4%

National Democracy - 47,8%
Christian Democracy - 23,9%
German minority party - 18,6%
Polish People's Front "Piast" - 9,2%
Centrum Mieszczańskie - 0,4%
Polish Socialist Party - 0,1%

18. Gniew (Mewe) County - voter turnout 82,9%

National Democracy - 50,9%
Christian Democracy - 27,8%
Polish Socialist Party - 11,3%
German minority party - 7,3%
Polish People's Front "Piast" - 1,5%
Centrum Mieszczańskie - 1,2%
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
Last edited by Peter K on 08 Feb 2014 20:00, edited 2 times in total.
There are words which carry the presage of defeat. Defence is such a word. What is the result of an even victorious defence? The next attempt of imposing it to that weaker, defender. The attacker, despite temporary setback, feels the master of situation.

User avatar
Marcus
Member
Posts: 33951
Joined: 08 Mar 2002 22:35
Location: Europe

Re: The Polish area under Prussian control

Post by Marcus » 08 Feb 2014 19:43

(Two threads on similar topics have been merged)

Peter K
Host - Allied sections
Posts: 3669
Joined: 12 Jul 2006 19:17
Location: Poland

Re: The Polish area under Prussian control

Post by Peter K » 08 Feb 2014 19:46

Roland Sussex and Paul Cubberley in their 2006 book about Slavic languages compare the difference between Polish and Kashubian to the difference between Low German and High German.

Linguist Krzysztof Mrongowiusz wrote that there are more differences between literary German language and Saxon dialect or Bavarian dialect, than between literary Polish and Kashubian.

====================================================

Professor B. Synak wrote:

"(...) Even though Kashubians developed a consciousness of homeliness, of ethnic distinctness, this is not a distinctness as a national community. The Kashubian identity for many years has been shaping itself within the frames of the Polish identity and national tradition. (...)"

Łukasz Grzędzicki - head of Kashubian-Pomeranian Association - added:

"(...) We are not going to create a Kashubian nation, because Kashubians in Poland are equal citizens. Vast majority of Kashubians, including myself, have double ethnic identity: they feel both Kashubians and Poles. (...)"

==========================================

When it comes to Kashubians in population censuses:

In 1921 census (which had a question for nationality, not language), out of 935,643 people in Pomerelian Voivodeship, were:

745,221 Catholics - of whom 721,230 declared Polish nationality and 23,366 declared German nationality.

186,224 Protestants - of whom 35,296 declared Polish nationality and 150,597 declared German nationality.

2,927 Jews - of whom 886 declared Polish nationality and 1,641 declared German nationality. 388 Jews declared Jewish nationality.

There were also 1,271 people of other religions or non-religious. Of them 386 declared Polish and 167 German nationality.

=========================================

And when it comes to Kashubians in Poland's most recent (2011) population census:

There are in total 232,547 Kashubians in Poland (2011 census).

Out of those 232,547 Kashubians, as many as 215,784 declare also Polish identification.

Only 17,746 declare Kashubian as first identification - of them just 16,377 as their only identification.

Well over 214,000 Kashubians declare Polish identification as 1st and Kashubian identification only as 2nd.

Finally - only 386 people declare Kashubian and a non-Polish identification (perhaps Kashubian-German).

==================================

The progress of Germanization of Western Kashubs (those who lived to west of the border of Poland) from 1600 to 1945:

http://s17.postimg.org/yqawdplfh/Germ_Kash_1.png
http://s1.postimg.org/p21g0fqkd/Germ_Kash_2.png
Germ Kash 1.jpg
Germ Kash 2.jpg
Map is from the website of Kaszëbskô Jednota - Association of People of Kashubian Nationality:

https://www.facebook.com/Kaszebi

Precisely from this article:

http://kaszebsko.com/uploads/historia/H ... 818%29.pdf

==========================================

By comparison here Kashubian territories (Kaszuby) around year 1200:

This map is according to Polish historian Gerard Labuda (1916 - 2010), who was himself Kashubian:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gerard_Labuda
Gerard Labuda (Kashubian: Gerard Labùda; December 28, 1916 – October 1, 2010) was a Polish historian whose main fields of interest were the Middle Ages and the Western Slavs. He was born in what became the Polish Corridor after World War I. He lived and died in Poznań, Poland.

Labuda was born in Neuhütte / Karthaus, West Prussia, Germany (now Nowa Huta, Pomeranian Voivodeship, Kartuzy, Poland), into a Kashubian family. He was the son of Stanislaw Labuda and Anastazja Baranowska. From 1950 he was a professor at Poznań University; rector 1962–1965; from 1951 a member of the Polish Academy of Learning (PAU); president 1989–1994; from 1964 member of the Polish Academy of Sciences (PAN); vice-president 1984–1989; from 1959 to 1961 director of the Western Institute (Instytut Zachodni) in Poznań and a member of the New York Academy of Sciences. He was buried in Luzino - Kashubia.

From 1958 onwards he edited the multi-volume Dictionary of Slavonic Antiquities (Słownik Starożytności Słowiańskich) and published historical sources. Author of more than 30 books and close to 2000 scholarly publications.

Awarded the Grand Cross of the Order of Polonia Restituta (1996) and the highest Polish distinction Order of the White Eagle (2010; posthumously).

Award of the Alfred Jurzykowski Foundation (USA, 1983), Herder Award (Austria, 1991). State of Poland awards (1949, 1951, 1970).

Honorary Doctorates of Gdańsk University (1986), Nicolas Copernicus University (1993), Jagiellonian University (1995), Warsaw University (1997), Wrocław University (1999), and Szczecin University (2003).
http://s16.postimg.org/sm02bzfl1/1200_Kash.png

Image

This Gerard Labuda's map was published in another article from the website of Kaszëbskô Jednota:

http://strona.kaszebsko.nazwa.pl/upload ... 283%29.pdf

================================

And one more map from website of Kaszëbskô Jednota:

Situation before year 1200 (between ca. year 1000 and ca. year 1200):

http://postimg.org/image/qtw96rump/
1000s to 1100s.jpg
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
There are words which carry the presage of defeat. Defence is such a word. What is the result of an even victorious defence? The next attempt of imposing it to that weaker, defender. The attacker, despite temporary setback, feels the master of situation.

Return to “Other eras”