Poland: ~6 million or ~10 million victims of WW2 ?

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Kajtmaz
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Re: Poland: ~6 million or ~10 million victims of WW2 ?

Post by Kajtmaz » 20 Apr 2010 17:49

uberjude wrote:While I agree that Poles often get unfair treatment from some Jews, and I sympathize with their frustration over the hostile oversimplification of the long and complex relationship between...
respect

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Re: Poland: ~6 million or ~10 million victims of WW2 ?

Post by Peter K » 24 Aug 2011 18:01

These were nearly all ethnic Poles, since the Germans living east of the Oder-Neisse Line had been expelled
The census was from February of 1946. Most Germans were deported after that (1,63 million by the end of 1946). In May 1945 there were ca. 4,5 million minorities withing new borders of Poland (incl. 3 million in Ziemie Odzyskane).
Here some data can be found (page 313 and previous / further):

http://www.igipz.pan.pl/wydaw/Monografie_5/rozdz8.pdf
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Re: Poland: ~6 million or ~10 million victims of WW2 ?

Post by uberjude » 25 Aug 2011 14:31

For whatever it's worth, in Bloodlands, Timothy Snyder notes that the figure for 3 million non-Jewish Poles killed during the war was produced for propaganda purposes by communist bigwig Jakub Berman for purposes of de-emphasizing the Jewish victims of Nazism, and suggests that the true figure for non-Jewish Poles was under 2 million.

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Re: Poland: ~6 million or ~10 million victims of WW2 ?

Post by Artur Szulc » 25 Aug 2011 19:12

uberjude,

Snyder is in fact correct. Berman gave clear directions regarding how many non-Jewish victims Poland lost during the German occupation.
I belive he also gave directions concerning Polish Jewish victims.

Of course, Polish citizens killed by the Soviets was not an issue for him.

Counting Polish (Jewish and non-jewish) one can not only look at the German occupation but first the German occupation 1939-41 and the Soviet occupation 1939-41 and then only German occupation 1941-44 and after during Soviet "liberation" 1945 (in which tens of thousands non-Jewish Poles perished). They should all count as Polish victims of WWII.

So, I would say that Snyder is wrong giving that the numbers of non-Jewish Poles victims were under 2 million.

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Re: Poland: ~6 million or ~10 million victims of WW2 ?

Post by Peter K » 25 Aug 2011 20:19

and suggests that the true figure for non-Jewish Poles was under 2 million.
Demographic comparison suggests something different - that it was higher than 3 million.
Timothy Snyder notes that the figure for 3 million non-Jewish Poles killed during the war was produced for propaganda purposes by communist bigwig Jakub Berman for purposes of de-emphasizing the Jewish victims of Nazism
First of all that figure - due to being Communist propaganda - didn't include victims of Soviet occupation. And in general it didn't include losses in eastern Poland, which was incorporated to the USSR in 1945 - regardless of cause of those losses (victims of German crimes, Volhynian genocide etc. from that area are also not included).
by communist bigwig Jakub Berman for purposes of de-emphasizing the Jewish victims of Nazism
Why would Jakub Berman want to de-emphasize the Jewish victims of Nazism?

Berman was ethnic Jewish person and he was anti-Nazi (as all Communists).

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Re: Poland: ~6 million or ~10 million victims of WW2 ?

Post by uberjude » 25 Aug 2011 22:27

Good points on Eastern Poland, all well taken.

Domen, as for Berman's motives, it was Soviet policy once the war was over to de-emphasize the Jewish element in order to universalize the war against fascism. If the Soviets were only stopping "fascist" genocide against Jews, many people might not have felt that Soviet rule was necessarily such a great trade. If, by contrast, they were preventing a slaughter of millions of non-Jews, then it truly was a great war of liberation. Hence, Auschwitz was converted from a site where around a million Jews and 200,000 non-Jews (mostly Poles) were murdered, to a site where "four million people suffered and died" (italics added), and massacre sites in the USSR only commemorate victims of fascists aggression, not Jews.

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Re: Poland: ~6 million or ~10 million victims of WW2 ?

Post by michael mills » 26 Aug 2011 05:48

non-Jewish Poles
The above term is an oxymoron. Since Poles and Jews are separate and distinct ethnic groups, a Pole is by definition not a Jew and a Jew is by definition not a Pole.

To tlalk of "non-Jewish Poles" is a bit like talking of "non-Jewish gentiles". A gentile is by definition any person who is not Jewish; hence a "non-Jewish gentile" is a "non-Jewish non-Jew", a ridiculous formation.

Gentiles are divided into a number of nations. In point of fact, the Jewish word that is translated as "gentile", "goyim", actually simply means "nations".

One of the nations into which gentiles, or non-Jews, are divided is the Polish nation.

The Polish nation is therefore the ethnically Polish subsection of the gentiles, or the ethnically Polish subsection of the part of humanity that is not Jewish.

Hence. the term, "non-Jewish Pole" essentially means "non-Jewish member of the ethnically Polish subsection of the part of humanity that is not Jewish", which is patently absurd.

If you mean Pole, say Pole. The best formulation is simply 1939 citizens of Poland who lost their lives during the Second World War. If it is necessary to specify the ethnicity of any of those persons who lost their lives, say "ethnically Polish citizens of Poland" or "ethnically Ukrainian citizens of Poland", etc.

So the question should be: How many ethnically Polish citizens of 1939 Poland lost their lives during the Second World War, sub-divided into groups according to who caused their deaths, eg deaths caused by German occupiers, deaths caused by Soviet occupiers, deaths caused by Ukrainian insurgents etc.

The same question should be asked in relation to other ethnic groups that were citizens of 1939 Poland, eg Ukrainians, Belorussians, Germans, Jews.

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Re: Poland: ~6 million or ~10 million victims of WW2 ?

Post by LWD » 26 Aug 2011 14:08

michael mills wrote:
non-Jewish Poles
The above term is an oxymoron. Since Poles and Jews are separate and distinct ethnic groups, a Pole is by definition not a Jew and a Jew is by definition not a Pole.
....
Not really. The term "Jewish" can be used to refer to either an ethnic group or a religious group. The term "Pole" can be used to refer to either an ethnic group or a nationality. There is no contraditictioin at all in three of the four possible combinations and since one can be a member of multiple ethnic groups even the 4th isn't unreasonable. The obvious implication of term by the way would be those of Polish nationality that weren't ethnically Jewish.
Last edited by LWD on 26 Aug 2011 14:10, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Poland: ~6 million or ~10 million victims of WW2 ?

Post by uberjude » 26 Aug 2011 14:10

As long as we're being pedantic, "goyim" is not translated as gentile; "goy" is.

And you are absolutely correct that "goy" simply means nation, and is in fact also used to describe the Jewish nation (e.g., a "goy kadosh," a "holy nation").

"Goy" also means a non-Jew.

What does this teach us? That words can sometimes have multiple meanings. Thus, the word "goy" can simultaneously mean both "a nation" (including the Jewish nation) and "a non-Jew."

By the same token, "Pole," "Belarussian," "Ukrainian," "Lithuanian" and so on can have multiple meanings. While they can certainly be used in the specific ethnic sense you provide, the establishment of states with citizenship has created an alternative meaning, i.e., a citizen of that state. As for self-identification, in some cases, it predated the modern state (Lithuanian Jews in Yiddish are simply called "Litvaks," i.e., "Lithuanians), sometimes Jews embraced these identities not just linguistically but ethnically as well (i.e., "Germans of the Mosaic Faith" saw themselves as members of the German nation divided by their Catholic and Protestant fellow Germans only by religion), and sometimes they simply still considered themselves to be Jews, pure and simple, but regardless, us of words like "Pole" or "Ukrainian" to describe Jewish citizens of the Poland or Ukraine is perfectly acceptable.

"'Non-Jewish Pole' essentially means the ethnically Polish subsection of the modern nation state of Poland," which is hardly absurd, patently or otherwise.

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Re: Poland: ~6 million or ~10 million victims of WW2 ?

Post by Cerdic » 12 Jan 2014 13:32

Further to what Michael Mills said earlier in the thread, this Revisionist article claims negligible civilian losses for Poles in WW2 http://vho.org/tr/2003/2/Mueller151-156.html What do others make of this article?

It seems that depending on whom you believe, Polish population losses could differ by almost 10 million. 8O

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Re: Poland: ~6 million or ~10 million victims of WW2 ?

Post by David Thompson » 12 Jan 2014 17:03

This is just the author's sleight of hand. He is redefining "Poles" (non-Jewish citizens of Poland) to mean "ethnic Poles," (whatever that means) in order to reduce the casualties. Then he doesn't have to talk about the casualty rate of the other, "non-ethnic Poles."

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Re: Poland: ~6 million or ~10 million victims of WW2 ?

Post by Cerdic » 12 Jan 2014 18:55

The author starts the article off by citing statements that 6 million Poles (which is generally stated to be about 1/2 Jewish and 1/2 Catholic Poles) died during WWII. His later calculations discuss ethnic Poles only, though.

Still, the question stands what happened to the ethnic Poles, because if the author is to be believed, This post-war census count of 26.2 million ethnic-Christian Poles must be compared with the corresponding number from the year 1939, i.e., 24.388 million. conclusion ought to be plain: In the year 1950, the number of ethnic Poles was about 1.826 million greater than before the war. Easily accessible population statistics of the pre- and post-war period clearly show that there is no proof that "six million Christian Poles were killed during the war." Their true numbers lost probably amount to the scale of a few hundred thousand at most.

based upon the following statistics:

Population of Poland in December 1950 24.6137 Mio.
minus Germans remaining -1.7 Mio.
plus ethnic Poles in the Soviet Union +2.8 Mio.
plus permanently emigrated ethnic Poles + 0.5 Mio.
Ethnic Poles who survived the Second World War
including the natural population growth
in the period 1939-1950: 26.2137 Mio.


He also presents a argument based upon natural population growth in section 5.

Some of the author's assumptions appear dubious. He writes that: In actuality, the number of Christian Poles increased not by a million, but rather jumped from 24.388 in 1939 to 36.3 million in 1982![13] And this increase of 12 million does not even include those Poles who live in the Soviet Union or who emigrated to the West. Therein lies further proof for the fact that the biological substance of the Polish people survived the Second World War very well indeed-far better than that of Germany. Such a phenomenal population growth-at least for European conditions-would have been impossible if "six million Poles" or even only three million had been "victims of the Nazi terror.".

He doesn't offer any reasoning why Poland's high birthrate would indicate that the undefined "biological substance" of the Polish population would mean that a lower than usually estimated number of Poles died in WW2, and appears to be contradicted by Barnett's cited statement that: Despite the enormous effect of the Second World War, the structure vis-à-vis age and sex of the population remained rather the same as it was in 1939.

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Re: Poland: ~6 million or ~10 million victims of WW2 ?

Post by Cerdic » 12 Jan 2014 19:27

Peter K said earlier in the thread:
More than 2,5 million Polish Jews couldn't die in WW2 since the total pre-war population of Poland was 3,2 million Jews and out of this number 0,45 million were deported by the Soviets in period 1939 - 1945 and 0,25 million survived the war.
The following article from HC estimates this number to be under 100,000:
In the previous five parts of this series, we exposed Sanning's fraudulent use of sources. This sixth part examines the convergence of evidence from Soviet and Polish archives that allows us to state, beyond reasonable doubt, that the number of Polish Jews deported to the Soviet interior in 1940-41 was less than 100,000.

The first source of archival data is Aleksander Gurjanov, who obtained access to Soviet deportation records at GARF and published his findings in Cztery deportacje 1940–1941 (Four deportations 1940-1941), KARTA, 12, 1994, pp. 114–136; available on-line here. Gurjanov concluded that approximately 315,000 people were deported, in four sets of deportations, on transports which we have listed in English here. Gurjanov's data allow us to estimate the maximum number of deportees who were refugees from western Poland. The deportation that targeted Jewish refugees took place in June-July 1940; the transports in that action totaled 75,267 deportees, not all of whom were Jews.

Gurjanov’s data refute Sanning, not just for the overall total of deportees, but also for individual cities. Sanning (p.41-42) claims that 50,000 Jewish refugees were deported from Lvov, and 50,000-60,000 from Bialystok, but Gurjanov’s data show only 26,798 deportees in total from Lvov and 9,551 in total from Bialystok.

Gurjanov’s data closely converge with the second source: NKVD archive data concerning camps in the USSR. Sergey Romanov found an excellent discussion of such archives in Mordechai Altshuler's Soviet Jewry on the Eve of the Holocaust (1998: p. 325-326). This cited an NKVD report, dated 1 April 1941, which showed that the number of deported western Polish refugees (bezhentsy) being held in camps under NKVD control on that date was 76,068, of which 64,533 were Jews. Altschuler concludes that these data, when adjusted for births and deaths, correspond to the June-July 1940 transports.

Other declassified, previously ‘top secret’, Soviet documents also corroborate the number of deportees. This source states that, on 13 January, 1943, 215,081 former Polish citizens remained in the Soviet interior, among them 102,153 Jews (Source: Katyn. Mart 1940 - sentyabr' 2000. Rasstrel. Sud'by zhivykh. Ekho Katyn, compiled by N.S.Lebedeva, Moscow, "Ves' mir", 2001, document 184). Moreover, the same document states that 389,041 former Polish citizens had been freed in the amnesty of August 1941, of which 90,662 were Jews. It also reveals that, in 1939-1941, 218,606 former Polish citizens from Western Ukraine and Belorussia volunteered for work in the Soviet interior, of which 8,830 were Jews. A note from the NKGB head, V. Merkulov, dated May 1st, 1944, tells us that 257,660 of the amnestied 389,041 former Polish citizens were passportised in the USSR in January 1943 (221,150 civilians, 36,510 Berling army) and that among these former Polish citizens, the number of registered Jews plus their children amounted to 81,217 (source: GARF 9401-2-64, pp. 381-384; image and transcription here, translated by Nick Terry here).

In our view, it is reasonable to infer that the 81,217 amnestied Polish Jews alive in the Soviet interior in January 1943 in the 1944 document, after adjustment for births and deaths, was a subset of the 90,662 amnestied Jews alive in August 1941 in the 1943 Beria-Stalin document. The 81,217 figure was also a subset of the total number of 102,153 Polish Jews alive in January 1943 that were counted by Beria (both figures refer to the same month: January 1943). The difference between the 90,662 and 81,217 figures may be partially accounted for by the 4,226 Polish Jews who went to Iran with the Anders Army during 1942, and by deaths between August 1941 and January 1943. The difference between the 102,153 and 81,217 figures consists of 20,936 Polish Jews who were not in the amnestied figure because they were never arrested. It may be explained by the number of labour volunteers, such as the 8,830 in Beria’s document, and by the number other refugees who may have fled to the Soviet interior on their own initiative instead of being deported.

Furthermore, it also seems reasonable to infer that the 64,553 deported refugees as of 1 April 1941 in the NKVD document cited by Altschuler formed a subset (adjusted for births and deaths) of the 90,662 Jews amnestied in August 1941 in the Beria-Stalin document. The other 26,009 amnestied Jews may have been on the other transports in Gurjanov's data (in deportations that did not target refugees), or may have been arrested inside the Soviet interior, or may have been survivors from the group of POW's taken prisoner by the USSR in 1939.

When we have posted some of these facts on the RODOH forum on this thread, 'revisionists' have raised four objections, which we will rebut below. Firstly, they state that death rates among deportees were as high as 50% so deaths must be added to the NKVD data. Secondly, they insist that Soviet data was deceitful and should not be trusted. Thirdly, they claim that our figures are lower than those in Polish Government In Exile sources. Fourthly, they note that the number of Polish Jews repatriated from the USSR after the war was higher than our number of deportees.

The claim concerning deaths overlooks the fact that refugees were deported in the Summer of 1940, so deaths from cold weather would be far lower than those among Poles deported in February. Furthermore, data for Gulag deaths, which Roberto Muehlencamp has posted here, show that overall death rates were far lower than revisionists assume. Total deaths for all Gulag inmates were 46,665 in 1940, out of a total Gulag population of 1,344,408, making a death rate of 3.47% (source: Richard Overy, The Dictators, 2004, Tables 14.2 & 14.3). Moreover, as we have shown above, the number of amnestied Polish Jews passportised in early 1943 (81,217) was only 5.76% lower than the number of Jews amnestied in August 1941 minus the Polish Jews who went to Iran with the Anders Army (i.e. 90,662 minus 4,226).

The claim that NKVD sources are suspect ignores the fact that Beria and other NKVD officers were writing for their superiors, not a public audience, and that the punishment for lying to one's superiors in Stalin's terror state would have been certain death.

The third revisionist objection cites Sanning's claim (p.42) that "The Polish Government In Exile, too, declared the Soviets deported 600,000 Jewish refugees from western Poland in the spring of 1940." However, Sanning provides no footnote for this sentence so does not allow us to check his source. More importantly, Sanning's claim is contradicted by Polish Government In Exile statistics whose sources can be traced precisely. In his contribution to the collection of essays edited by Polonsky and Davies, Jews in Eastern Poland and the U.S.S.R., 1939-46, published in 1991, David Engel (p.177) cites a communication from the Polish Government In Exile Foreign Minister, Raczynski, to Bund representative Zygielbojm, dated 17 March 1943, stating that there were 260,000 Polish citizens in the USSR, "half of whom are Jews". The figure of 260,000 Poles is very similar to that cited above in the note from the NKGB head, V. Merkulov, dated May 1st, 1944, which stated that 257,660 of the amnestied 389,041 Poles were still in the USSR in January 1943. Raczynski is therefore clearly a far more valid source than Sanning's unidentified one.

As to why Raczynski gave a higher figure for Jews than does the NKVB data, the most likely explanation is provided by the context, namely that Raczynski was warning the Bund that aid to Jewish refugees may be jeapordised if the Bund were to criticise Stalin's actions. Raczynski therefore probably exaggerated the proportion of Jews in the refugee population in order to make his point more persuasive.

This hypothesis can be supported by reference to a second Polish Government In Exile source. In another contribution to the Polonsky and Davies collection, Keith Sword (p.155) discussed a document that he found in the archives of the Polish Institute and General Sikorski Museum (PIGSM), located in London. The document was compiled by Raczynski's Ministry of Foreign Affairs and is entitled 'Relief accorded to Polish citizens by the Polish Embassy in the USSR (with special reference to Polish Citizens of Jewish Nationality)' (PIGSM File A/11.49 (Sow).31). The report revealed that the Embassy was co-ordinating relief for 260,399 Polish citizens, of whom the proportion of Jews was either 36.15% or 39.4% (the report gave two different breakdowns). The report therefore corroborates Raczynski's total figure for Poles but reveals that his figure for Jews was indeed higher than that reported within his own Ministry.

Furthermore, this reveals yet another omission on Sanning's part: a document in a London archive, written in English, from a wartime Polish Embassy source in the USSR, would have disabused Sanning of his misconception that refugee agencies were providing aid to 600,000 Polish Jews in central Asia.

With regard to repatriation, 157,420 Jewish "repatriates" were registered by the Central Committee of Polish Jewry as having returned to Poland by the end of June 1946. This figure was cited by Sanning and confirmed by Yosef Litvak in his contribution (Chapter 13; pp. 227-239) to the collection of essays edited by Polonsky and Davies, cited above. Litvak (p.235) also claimed that more than 70,000 further Polish Jewish repatriates returned by the end of the decade (bringing the total to 230,700), and a further 30,000 returned under the repatriation agreement of 1957. However, Sanning (p.45) falsely assumes that all of the repatriated Jews were refugees from western Poland who had fled across the Polish-Soviet demarcation line in 1939:

Of the many hundreds of thousands who fled to the Soviet Union in 1939 only 157,420 took advantage of this option and returned to Poland. In other words, the primary source which released these figures - the Central Committee for Jews in Poland, a Communist organization - wants to make us believe that only 83,059 Jews of western Poland (240,489 minus 157,420) survived the Second World War under German administration.


Sanning's claim is another example of his poor quality of research because it overlooks the fact that the Polish-Soviet repatriation agreement, signed on 6 July 1945, allowed any person who had been a Polish citizen on 17 September 1939 to return. Repatriates therefore could include not only western Polish refugees but anyone in eastern Poland who took Soviet citizenship in 1939-41.

Repatriates thus included Jews who were not deportees. Anyone who crossed the Polish-Soviet demarcation line in 1939-1941 but was not deported could be a repatriate; and anyone who fled eastwards when the Nazis crossed the demarcation line in June 1941 could be a repatriate, provided they had been Polish citizens on 17 September 1939.

Moreover, the total of 157,420 that had returned by June 1946 did not only consist of repatriates from the agreement of 6 July 1945, but also included many of the returnees who were repatriated under the agreements of September 1944 between Poland and the districts of the western USSR, which resulted (between 7 September 1944 and 1 January 1947) in 784,000 Polish repatriates from the Ukraine, 272,000 from Belorussia and 170,800 from Lithuania (Source: Piotrowski (2000), Genocide and Rescue in Wolyn, p. 248). The research of Czerniakiewicz (Repatriacja ludnosci polskiej z ZSRR, 1944-1948, Warsaw, 1987, p.154) found that 54,594 of these were Jews. Consequently, not all of the repatriates had been in the Soviet interior in September 1944. This is further evidence that repatriates included not only deportees, but also migrants who had fled from the Nazis on their own initiative, and Polish Jews in annexed territories of former eastern Poland who had been unable to flee from the Nazis in 1941 but survived Nazi occupation.

The repatriation figures are further complicated by three other factors. Firstly, Litvak (p.231) reveals that Poles who married Soviet citizens during the war were allowed to take their spouses, and the spouses' children from previous marriages, back to Poland. He claims that many Soviet war widows had married Poles. Secondly, Litvak (p.235) advises us that the Central Committee of Polish Jewry reported that the number of registered repatriates was 10-15 per cent higher than that of actual repatriates, because some people registered more than once. Thirdly, Litvak's breakdown of repatriates by sex (p.235) also shows that the proportion of males to females was higher than in the 1931 census, suggesting that a significant number of repatriates were labour volunteers rather than refugees.

Repatriation data does not therefore, when properly analysed, refute the evidence we have presented from Soviet and Polish sources, which in our view proves, beyond reasonable doubt, that fewer than 100,000 Polish Jews were deported to the Soviet interior in 1940-41.
http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot. ... art-6.html

John Zimmerman writes that the total number of Jews in Poland at the outbreak of war was between 3.3 million and 3.5 million http://web.archive.org/web/201004102059 ... p1_ch1.htm Taking the lower estimate of 3.3 million, minus 100,000 and minus 250,000 who survived (does this include deportees who returned to Poland?) that would mean somewhere in the vicinity of 3 million Polish Jews died.

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Re: Poland: ~6 million or ~10 million victims of WW2 ?

Post by wm » 12 Jan 2014 20:33

Number of Poles in:
1939 (est.) = 24.2 million
1946 (est. no WW2) = 26.3
1946 (census) = 20.5

missing = 5.8 million

human sex ratio (men to women) in Poland:
1939 = 1
1946 = 0.84

missing Polish men according to the sex ratio: 3.28 million

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Re: Poland: ~6 million or ~10 million victims of WW2 ?

Post by Cerdic » 12 Jan 2014 20:54

Hi wm,

Thankyou for the response.

Can you please cite a source for your statistics? Do they take into account all the factors mentioned above (Ethnic Poles in the USSR after the war, immigration, lower birth rate etc.)

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