Poland: ~6 million or ~10 million victims of WW2 ?

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LWD
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Re: Poland: ~6 million or ~10 million victims of WW2 ?

Post by LWD » 28 Jan 2014 14:45

I think one of the problems is record keeping for some of the displaced people in particular those considered "German". If I'm reading much of the past post correctly a lot of the debate is over just how to calculate the losses given the known documentation. Certainly interesting and I very much hope productive.

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Re: Poland: ~6 million or ~10 million victims of WW2 ?

Post by Peter K » 28 Jan 2014 22:49

One digression when it comes to Gorals and Kashubs (who were mentioned on previous page):

Gorals and Kashubs were not recognized as separate ethnicities in Polish censuses before 1939. Just like for example today the state of Germany does not recognize Bavarians as a separate ethnicity (even though separatism is relatively strong there).

They were counted simply as Poles by authorities of the Second Republic of Poland.

And they declared their language as "Polish" in both censuses (1921 and 1931). Among Kashubs Polish nationalism was strong - which is visible in results of elections (in areas with Kashub majority, great majority of votes were for nationalist parties).

Since the "Goralenvolk" movement initiated by Nazi Germany in WW2 largely failed (not many people joined it - and attempts of forming the Goral Waffen SS Division also totally failed), I conclude that Gorals also had strong Polish identity feelings.

Despite intense Nazi propaganda campaign, only 300 Gorals volunteered to Waffen SS - there was a thread about this:

http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 2#p1022357

The only state which in its official policies considered Kashubs and Gorals as non-Poles, was Germany as far as I know.

=======================================================
Sid wrote:One can then, if one so wishes, then break this headline figure down by ethnicity, or add in post-war losses of displaced persons, or add in Polish-Americans, Franco-Poles, Germanized Poles, etc., etc., to suit one's purpose, which appears to be what is happening here.
Indeed. ;) If we want to count losses of so called "ethnic Poles", then we should count both those who lived in Poland, and those who lived outside of Poland. For example according to official Soviet census, in 1926 there were 782,334 Polish people in the Soviet Union. Polish authorities estimated that it was even more. Data from that 1926 census is available in the link below (in Russian):

http://demoscope.ru/weekly/ssp/ussr_nac_26.php

However, large part of those Poles in the Soviet Union, died already before 1939 as the result of Stalinist repressions.

It is estimated, for example, that 21,000 Poles died during the Great Famine in Ukraine.

Further 111,091 Poles, citizens of the USSR, were executed during the so called Polish Operation of the NKVD in 1937-1938:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish_Ope ... 80%9338%29

A lecture about that crime against humanity in English:

There are words which carry the presage of defeat. Defence is such a word. What is the result of an even victorious defence? The next attempt of imposing it to that weaker, defender. The attacker, despite temporary setback, feels the master of situation.

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Re: Poland: ~6 million or ~10 million victims of WW2 ?

Post by Sid Guttridge » 29 Jan 2014 13:32

Hi Peter K,

The Slovaks considered the Gorals as Slovak and in late 1939 were allowed by the Germans to reannex Goral-populated border areas previously in dispute with Poland.

The Slovak nationalist case was that, on lingustic grounds, the Gorals were an intermediate group who were more Slovak than Polish. I have no idea of the specifics of this argument.

Cheers,

Sid.

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Re: Poland: ~6 million or ~10 million victims of WW2 ?

Post by Peter K » 29 Jan 2014 13:44

I think they considered different Gorals as Slovaks, because Gorals were never a single group, a monolith.

There were several groups of Gorals who spoke different regional dialects - some of them Polish, some Slovak, some Ukrainian.

But it is true, that Polish and Slovak languages are similar to each other, so in case of regional dialects from borderland regions it can be hard whether to classify a particular dialect as a dialect of Polish language, or as a dialect of Slovak language.

Anyway - Gorals simply means "Highlanders" - Scotland has their own Highlanders, Poland and Slovakia have their own.
There are words which carry the presage of defeat. Defence is such a word. What is the result of an even victorious defence? The next attempt of imposing it to that weaker, defender. The attacker, despite temporary setback, feels the master of situation.

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Re: Poland: ~6 million or ~10 million victims of WW2 ?

Post by henryk » 29 Jan 2014 20:11

http://forum.polishorigins.com/viewtopi ... hlight=map
A discussion of the different Gorals, including a map showing location. Click on map to enlargen. Some are located on both sides of the Slovak border. The site mentions also a Silesian Goral dialect.
http://www.gwarypolskie.uw.edu.pl/index ... &Itemid=18
A discussion of Malopolska dialects, including Goral.

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Re: Poland: ~6 million or ~10 million victims of WW2 ?

Post by Marcus » 08 Feb 2014 10:13

Several off-topic posts were moved to http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 4#p1851724

/Marcus

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Re: Poland: ~6 million or ~10 million victims of WW2 ?

Post by Peter K » 03 May 2014 02:15

Coming back to autochthons who stayed in the Regained Lands, discussed on previous page (4):
Peter K wrote:Number of Poles in the Regained Lands included so called nationally verified autochthons
Number of autochthons in Opole Voivodeship (Woj. Opolskie) was over 0,4 million in 1950:

County - autochthons / total population (% of autochthons):

Image

Location of Woj. Opolskie in 1950 - 1975 administrative division of Poland:

Image

Woj. Opolskie is located entirely outside of pre-war borders of Poland:

http://s30.postimg.org/az2f8y94x/Woj_wsp_a_II_RP.png
Woj wsp a II RP.png
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There are words which carry the presage of defeat. Defence is such a word. What is the result of an even victorious defence? The next attempt of imposing it to that weaker, defender. The attacker, despite temporary setback, feels the master of situation.

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Re: Poland: ~6 million or ~10 million victims of WW2 ?

Post by Cerdic » 12 Jul 2014 19:13

I found the following at the HC blog. Apparently it is based on post-war Polish sources.

Henryk Zielinski, Population changes in Poland, New York 1954

Death Rate
1936-38 14.1
1939 13.7
1940 13.9
1941 15.8
1942 17.0
1943 13.4
1944 17.6

Birth Rate
1936-38 25.3
1939 24.2
1940 23.0
1941 21.7
1942 20.7
1943 19.3
1944 19.8

The birth rate declined by quite a bit, but it is quite high by modern standards (Poland's current birth rate is 10 per 1000 people each year). In all years of the war, the birth rate was higher than the death rate.

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Re: Poland: ~6 million or ~10 million victims of WW2 ?

Post by Peter K » 15 Jul 2014 21:33

In all years of the war, the birth rate was higher than the death rate.
This death rate must include only deaths from natural causes then. Can you provide link to that blog ???

==================================

In period 1921 - 1931 population of Poland was increasing by 1,7% annually (from 27.2 to 32.1 million).

In period 1931 - 1938 population growth speed was slower - 1,2% annually (from 32.1 to 34.5 million).

Increase of various religious groups between 1921 and 1931:

Religion - number of believers in 1921 to 1931 (percent of total population in 1921 and in 1931):

Roman Catholicism: --------- from 17366 to 20827 (from 63.9% to 64.8%)
Greek Catholicism: ---------- from 3031 to 3362 (from 11.2% to 10.5%)
Orthodox Christianity: ----- from 2847 to 3787 (from 10.5% to 11.8%)
Evangelical Christianity: --- from 1002 to 842 (from 3.7% to 2.6%)
Judaism: ---------------------- from 2846 to 3137 (from 10.5% to 9.8%)
Others: ------------------------ from 85 to 152 (from 0.2% to 0.5%)

Total population: ----------- from 27177 to 32107

According to 1931 census among all Roman Catholics 98.4% were Poles and Roman Catholics were 92.5% of all Poles.

Source: Mały Rocznik Statystyczny (Concise Statistical Yearbook), GUS, Warsaw 1938.
The birth rate declined by quite a bit, but it is quite high by modern standards
Modern birth rates in Europe are sub-replacement rates, which means that they are very low by any standards:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sub-replacement_fertility
There are words which carry the presage of defeat. Defence is such a word. What is the result of an even victorious defence? The next attempt of imposing it to that weaker, defender. The attacker, despite temporary setback, feels the master of situation.

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Re: Poland: ~6 million or ~10 million victims of WW2 ?

Post by Cerdic » 21 Jul 2014 20:50

Hi Peter K,

It is a comment below the article here.

http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot. ... art-2.html

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