Katyn Massacre was part of a Russian-German operation

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Okyzm
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Katyn Massacre was part of a Russian-German operation

Post by Okyzm » 29 Apr 2010 03:07

[Split from "Opening the Russian Katyn-files"]

Those documents were known for long time and do not represent anything knew to scholars.

http://wiadomosci.gazeta.pl/Wiadomosci/ ... __One.html

The real issue are 116 out of 183 volumes of files gathered during the Russian investigation that were declared to contain state secrets and were classified.

What they contain nobody knows, although the most popular rumour goes the evidence that Katyn Massacre was part of joint Russian-German operation aimed at extermination of Polish leadership(AB Aktion happened at the same time).

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Re: Opening the Russian Katyn-files

Post by David Thompson » 29 Apr 2010 03:15

Okyzm -- If you have some sources to back up the "popular rumor," we might have something new. Your comments about the Russian "state secrets" claim have been made so often in our numerous Katyn threads that the eyes of our readers who have taken the trouble to follow them are probably starting to glaze over.

The moral of the story: If you want to see something new, provide it, and don't criticize others when you are only imitating their example.

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Re: Opening the Russian Katyn-files

Post by Okyzm » 29 Apr 2010 10:48

Your comments about the Russian "state secrets" claim have been made so often in our numerous Katyn threads that the eyes of our readers who have taken the trouble to follow them are probably starting to glaze over.
This is the first thread about Katyn massacre that I patricipiated in David. Unless you are a time traveller from the future where I engaged in Katyn discussions, you must have confused me with somebody else :wink: .

As to 116 volumes being classified that is hardly a secret:
http://wiadomosci.gazeta.pl/Wiadomosci/ ... 87514.html

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Sergey Romanov
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Re: Opening the Russian Katyn-files

Post by Sergey Romanov » 29 Apr 2010 11:27

All of these documents have been published in October 1992 in Warsaw. The color versions were published a few years ago by Russian Katyn deniers and then by Polish newspapers. So there is almost nothing new about them (except maybe for one back side).
Last edited by S.Romanov on 29 Apr 2010 11:57, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Opening the Russian Katyn-files

Post by bf109 emil » 29 Apr 2010 13:32

I see that you do not defend your initial claim that this case has anything to do with classification or presents any sort of sensational news. Good.
showing of russian classified material as being both suspicious and lacking worthiness by past action speaks wonders...
Do you just like to write a lot of meaningless text or something?
that depends upon your ability to define and determine meaningless...are you an expert in this field or have past experiences with material as deemed meaningless?
We're discussing whether or not the classified files contain anything sensational. Suddenly you bring up the old, tired, non-sensational topic of Katyn at Nuremberg. How is this relevant? Go figure.
define WE meaning yourself, or numerous members throughout this form whom use the material gathered here for a variety of resources and information...in this case the false claims of the Soviet Union and presentation of fictitious material lacking any basis of reality or evidence and pressed into a courtroom as being legitimate by the Soviet union/Russia has total relevance to present day findings, interests, and worthiness of material in present day society which was post deemed classified as being suspicious at best.

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Re: Opening the Russian Katyn-files

Post by Sergey Romanov » 29 Apr 2010 14:06

> showing of russian classified material as being both suspicious and lacking worthiness by past action speaks wonders...

"speaks wonders"?

I'm afraid you've stopped making any sense whatsoever.

Please, explicitly explain in plain English what your point is (if you have one).

> define WE meaning yourself, or numerous members throughout this form whom use the material gathered here for a variety of resources and information...

"We" is obviously you and me.
by S.Romanov on Today, 12:47

> There is nothing sensational in these files

by bf109 emil on Today, 13:27

> or is there...
... followed by the non-sensational, beaten to death and thus irrelevant to the issue at hand topics of the Leningrad trial and Katyn at Nuremberg. If you can't even follow this simple discussion...

> in this case the false claims of the Soviet Union and presentation of fictitious material lacking any basis of reality or evidence and pressed into a courtroom as being legitimate by the Soviet union/Russia has total relevance to present day findings, interests, and worthiness of material in present day society which was post deemed classified as being suspicious at best.

"Present day findings" in regard to what? How is all of this relevant to the 116 classified volumes of the criminal case no. 159?

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Re: Opening the Russian Katyn-files

Post by David Thompson » 29 Apr 2010 14:10

bf109 emil --
You wrote: or is there...as 7 German officers where hung "Illegally" in November 1945 from evidence presented by the USSR...
In November 1945, seven officers of the German Wehrmacht (and I think it is reasonable to mention their names -- K.H. Strueffling, H. Remlinger, E. Böhom, E. Sommerfeld, H. Jannike, E. Skotki and E. Geherer) were tried by a court of the victorious allies, the Americans, the English, the French and the Russians. They were condemned to death for war crimes and subsequently hanged.

Three more were tried on the same charges (E.P. Vogel, F. Wiese, A. Diere), received sentences of 20 years of hard labor, were turned over to the Russians and never heard of again.

Most interesting about this particular war trial is the charge. The officers were charged and hanged for having shot thousands of Polish officers in the forest of Katyn after the defeat of Poland in 1939.

Now, with glasnost and all, it has been officially established and admitted by the Russians themselves that the murder of thousands of the gallant Polish officer corps in the forest near Katyn was committed by the bolsheviks of Stalin, not by the murderous Nazis
sourced H. Famira
Professor of German
Concordia University
Montreal
Prof. Famira's claim has multiple errors in it, and he apparently got his information from some old right-wing German publications. See the discussion at:

Germans executed for Katyn
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=15730

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Re: Opening the Russian Katyn-files

Post by Okyzm » 29 Apr 2010 14:16

As to German involvment. The theory is not that Katyn was made by Germans, but that it was result of cooperation between Nazi Germany and Soviet Union to destroy Polish resistance.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Katyn_Mass ... velopments
On the opposing sides there are allegations that the massacre was part of wider action coordinated by both Nazi Germany and the Soviet Union, or that the Germans at least knew of Katyn beforehand.[citation needed] These allegations cite the secret supplementary protocol[87] to the German-Soviet Boundary and Friendship Treaty, which stipulates that "Both parties will tolerate in their territories no Polish agitation which affects the territories of the other party. They will suppress in their territories all beginnings of such agitation and inform each other concerning suitable measures for this purpose". They also describe a series of conferences between the NKVD and Gestapo, organised in the town of Zakopane in 1939–1940, and claim that these conferences were held to coordinate the killing and the deportation policy[88] and exchange experience. Writing in the Commentary magazine in 1981, George Watson, a Fellow in English at St. John's College, Cambridge suggested that the fate of Polish prisoners may have been discussed at the April 1940 conference.[89] This theory surfaces in Polish media,[90] where it is also pointed out that a similar massacre of Polish elites (German AB-Aktion in Poland) was taking place at the same time and with similar methods in German-occupied Poland.


If the classified volumes-which are the majority of the investigation- contain such information, they would shatter the image of Soviet Union being a dedicated opponent of Nazi Germany in WW2-something that current Russian state has been cultivating as part of its national identity.


That the Germans knew about Katyn earlier is actually hinted quite often-out of hand:
http://www.polityka.pl/historia/1504760 ... tynia.read

There are also official documented requests regarding prisoners and their transfer between SU and Nazi Germany that were in Katyn-I know there was news about it and will find the source as soon as possible.

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Re: Opening the Russian Katyn-files

Post by Art » 29 Apr 2010 14:26

bf109 emil wrote: Perhaps even more troubling is the false claims by Russia and presented at Nuremberg to try and wash their hands of KATYN along with erroneous claims, which where taken as fact...here is an interesting read as to the sad plight of Russia trying to cover up the Katryn Massacre...hence perhaps the rumour as mentioned earlier was started and added as to include Germany by others as to deflect the blame from solely being Russian
Russia didn't present any claims in Nuremberg either genuine or false. There was simply no such state as Russia when the Nuremberg Tribunal was held. The same applies to many other usage of "Russia" in your posts.
Regarding the topic itself: the very title is not entirely correct, the documents discussed were declassified quite a time ago and are very well known, copies were given to the Polish side already by Gorbachev. Photocopies were also available online, see the thread:
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... &start=165

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Re: Opening the Russian Katyn-files

Post by Art » 29 Apr 2010 14:30

Okyzm wrote:They also describe a series of conferences between the NKVD and Gestapo, organised in the town of Zakopane in 1939–1940
These alleged conferences in Zakopane are an analogue of UFOs visiting the Earth. Nobody have presented solid proofs of their existence thus far despite a lot of talks.

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Re: Opening the Russian Katyn-files

Post by Sergey Romanov » 29 Apr 2010 14:30

1. There is no evidence for such an involvement, neither in German, nor in Soviet documents. The Soviet documents above, in particular, don't mention any cooperation with Germans. It was a strictly internal matter.

2. There is no evidence that the classified files contain any evidence of such an involvement, so the speculation is rather useless.

3. If the files contained any concrete evidence of this, it would be known, as many Russian historians/researchers had access to these files, including liberals. In the scathing expert report of 1993 the official Russian experts accused Stalin et al. of "genocide, war crimes and crimes against humanity" - even many Polish experts now don't go that far (in regard to the genocide claim). So these anti-Stalin experts would have also revealed the alleged connection to AB Aktion if there was any.

4. "they would shatter the image of Soviet Union being a dedicated opponent of Nazi Germany in WW2-something that current Russian state has been cultivating as part of its national identity" - this is nonsensical argument since the Soviet-Nazi connections/Molotov-Ribbentrop pact are universally known and undeniable. Who exactly claims that USSR and Germany were enemies from 1.9.39 to 22.6.41?
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Re: Opening the Russian Katyn-files

Post by Sergey Romanov » 29 Apr 2010 14:32

Art wrote:Regarding the topic itself: the very title is not entirely correct, the documents discussed were declassified quite a time ago and are very well known, copies were given to the Polish side already by Gorbachev. Photocopies were also available online, see the thread:
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... &start=165
Actually the copies were declassified in Sept. or Oct. '92 and thus were given by Yeltsin (through Pikhoya).

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Re: Opening the Russian Katyn-files

Post by David Thompson » 29 Apr 2010 14:33

Art wrote:
Russia didn't present any claims in Nuremberg either genuine or false. There was simply no such state as Russia when the Nuremberg Tribunal was held.
I agree. There is a difference between the former Soviet state (USSR) and modern-day Russia which our posters should keep in mind in these discussions. The two entities are by no means identical, and shouldn't be treated as such.

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Re: Opening the Russian Katyn-files

Post by Okyzm » 29 Apr 2010 14:35

These alleged conferences in Zakopane are an analogue of UFOs visiting the Earth. Nobody have presented solid proofs of their existence thus far despite a lot of talks.
It is rather well accepted that those conferences took place ? What do you mean ?
NKVD and Gestapo cooperation in regards to Polish prisoners is mentioned in:

Katyn and the Soviet massacre of 1940: truth, justice and memory George Sanford page 31
He also describes in detail other aspects of cooperation.

Rees, Laurence (2008) World War Two Behind Closed Doors also mentions them.

The two entities are by no means identical.
Although they also are by no means seperated.
this is nonsensical argument since the Soviet-Nazi connections/Molotov-Ribbentrop pact are universally known and undeniable.
Depends. There is a lot of revisionism including Russian-state backed historians regarding Soviet-Nazi relations. If their would be a clear cooperation in regards to murdering Allied prisoners in 1939-1941 by joint Nazi-Soviet forces it would make a lot harder to claim that Soviet Union didn't support Nazi Germany in 1939-1941 in its efforts against Allies.
even many Polish experts now don't go that far (in regard to the genocide claim).
Incorrect. Polish state institutions classify Katyn Massacre as genocide.
http://fakty.interia.pl/raport/70-roczn ... wo,1369394


Interesting: Anthony Eden: a political biography, 1931-1957
By Victor Rothwell page 68 o mentions worries resulting from documents known by British government that Katyn was a Soviet-Nazi operation.

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Sergey Romanov
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Re: Opening the Russian Katyn-files

Post by Sergey Romanov » 29 Apr 2010 14:51

> It is rather well accepted that those conferences took place ? What do you mean ?

What "conferences"? The only conference between the Germans and Soviets in Zakopane concerned the issue of refugees exchange.

> Depends. There is a lot of revisionism including Russian-state backed historians regarding Soviet-Nazi relations. If their would be a clear cooperation in regards to murdering Allied prisoners in 1939-1941 by joint Nazi-Soviet forces it would make a lot harder to claim that Soviet Union didn't support Nazi Germany in 1939-1941 in its efforts against Allies.

Well, if your grandmother had balls, she would be your grandfather. But again, nobody denies the Soviet-Nazi relations. Do they try to excuse them? Sure. Anyway it boils down to the fact that on the matter of Katyn-related murders there is zero evidence of cooperation. The only "cooperation" that can be identified is when the Germans requested some Polish POWs from the "German" territory from the Soviets.

>> even many Polish experts now don't go that far (in regard to the genocide claim).

> Incorrect. Polish state institutions classify Katyn Massacre as genocide.

I don't see how your claim contradicts my claim. Also, IPN is not necessarily representative of the Polish historians and researchers.

This is rather irrelevant, though, as my point was that if the experts were biased, it was in the "anti-Soviet" direction (not that it's a bad thing).

Finally, to repeat, there is no evidence of cooperation in relation to Katyn. Only speculation based on the close dates.

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