Number of deaths at Treblinka

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vilak
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Number of deaths at Treblinka

Post by vilak » 09 Aug 2010 13:51

[This inquiry thread was moved from Number of Victims of the Holocaust - Reference Thread
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=101471 and recaptioned by the moderator - DT.]

anji5568 wrote:Treblinka 750,000 to 870,000
this is the official estimation. But eye-witnesses put the number above one million:
-some prisonners of the camps clearly remember the SS partying to celebrate the million victim.
-the man that worked at the treblinka railways station saw all the trains that went to the deathcamp with the number of deported written on each car. He said he added and re-added the numbers he always had a result of 1.2 million people directed to the camp.
Why this number isn't yet taken as the real number by officials?

michael mills
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Re: Number of Victims of the Holocaust - Reference Thread

Post by michael mills » 10 Aug 2010 01:58

Why this number isn't yet taken as the real number by officials?
Because the sources for it are too unreliable.

No doubt prisoners saw the camp staff having a party. Perhaps the camp staff had lots of parties. Perhaps members of the camp staff boasted that they had killed one million victims. But this source is simply too unrelaiable, unless backed up by documentary evidence.

Someone standing on a station platform adding up numbers chalked on the doors of freigth-cars is too prone to error. Any interruption, such as guard shouting "Hey Pole, what are you doing", could cause him to lose count.

An actual German document shows over 700,000 Jews delivered to Treblinka by end 1942. There were further transports of Jews to Treblinka in 1943, but they were far fewer in number.

PFLB
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Re: Number of deaths at Treblinka

Post by PFLB » 10 Aug 2010 12:13

I'm no expert on Holocaust statistics, but surely the number written on the train carriages cannot represent precisely the number killed in the gas chambers, since some would have died en route. That may not account for the whole of the discrepancy, but must account for some of it. Also, for the observations of the railway station worker to lead to the conclusion you reach, you would also have to know that all of the carriages went to the extermination camp. I'm not saying you're wrong or he's wrong, but at first glance it seems possible that some of those carriages may have been going to other destinations. Finally, Treblinka was, as I understand it, essentially created to wipe out the Jewish population in its area of the Generalgovernment and was more or less successful. If there were ~500,000 more victims than is generally accepted, would that not tend to presuppose that that population was alot larger than it is thought to have been?

Sampo Jämbeck
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Re: Number of deaths at Treblinka

Post by Sampo Jämbeck » 15 Aug 2010 10:30

I agree Michael. There is numerous unreliable statements of every camp administrated by Nazis.
One problem is also all "improvised" methods of killing.
Vilak, where did you find that SS partying to celebrate the million victim story?
Quite interesting.

vilak
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Re: Number of deaths at Treblinka

Post by vilak » 08 Nov 2010 14:34

Sampo Jämbeck wrote:I agree Michael. There is numerous unreliable statements of every camp administrated by Nazis.
One problem is also all "improvised" methods of killing.
Vilak, where did you find that SS partying to celebrate the million victim story?
Quite interesting.
I found it on a camp Survivor book. I can't remeber if it's in Richard Glazar "Trap with a Green fence", Chil Rajchman or Samuel Willenberg book but it's one of those 3.

"The Polish man that worked at the treblinka railway and said 1.2 millions people were killed" is quoted from Gitta sereny's book "into the dark".

Kajtmaz
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Re: Number of deaths at Treblinka

Post by Kajtmaz » 08 Nov 2010 16:07

vilak wrote:"The Polish man that worked at the treblinka railway and said 1.2 millions people were killed" is quoted from Gitta sereny's book "into the dark".
What was "treblinka railway"?
Who was "polish man at the treblinka railway" and what he did "at the treblinka railway"?

vilak
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Re: Number of deaths at Treblinka

Post by vilak » 08 Nov 2010 16:29

Kajtmaz wrote:
vilak wrote:"The Polish man that worked at the treblinka railway and said 1.2 millions people were killed" is quoted from Gitta sereny's book "into the dark".
What was "treblinka railway"?
Who was "polish man at the treblinka railway" and what he did "at the treblinka railway"?
He was working at the treblinka railways station. He was a member of the Polish resistance and his duty was to keep track of the german army movments. July 23, 1942, The first transport of jews stopped at the station waiting to be redirected to the death camp. He saw the number of "passengers" written of the side of each car and decided to keep record of it. He did it for every train directed to the death camp until the camp closed. Then he added the numbers and found a result around 1.200.000 people sent to the extermination site.

Off note : I visited Treblinka last week, you can't imagine how tiny is the place. It's scary how it's tiny...

Kajtmaz
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Re: Number of deaths at Treblinka

Post by Kajtmaz » 08 Nov 2010 17:02

vilak wrote:He was working at the treblinka railways station. He was a member of the Polish resistance and his duty was to keep track of the german army movments. July 23, 1942, The first transport of jews stopped at the station waiting to be redirected to the death camp. He saw the number of "passengers" written of the side of each car and decided to keep record of it. He did it for every train directed to the death camp until the camp closed. Then he added the numbers and found a result around 1.200.000 people sent to the extermination site.
...
1958, Vasily Grossman "The Hell Called Treblinka"

Polish man that worked at the treblinka railway was Luzian Cukowa (Люциан Цукова)
In 1958 were no 1.200.000
Эшелоны шли к Треблинке в течение тринадцати месяцев, в каждом эшелоне
было шестьдесят вагонов, и на каждом вагоне мелом были написаны цифры
150-180-200. Эта цифра показывала количество людей, находящихся в вагоне.
Железнодорожные служащие и крестьяне тайно вели счет этим эшелонам.
Крестьянин деревни Вулька (самый близкий к лагери населенный пункт),
шестидесятидвухлетний Казимир Скаржинский, говорил мне, что иногда бывали
дни, когда мимо Вульки проходило по одной лишь седлецкой ветке шесть
эшелонов, и почти не было дня в течение этих тринадцати месяцев, чтобы не
прошел хотя бы один эшелон. А ведь седлецкая ветка была лишь одной из
четырех железных дорог, снабжавших Треблинку. Железнодорожный ремонтный
рабочий - Люциан Цукова, мобилизованный немцами для работы на ветке, ведущей
от Треблинки к лагерю No 2, говорит, что за время его работы с 15 июня 1942
года по август 1943 года в лагерь по ветке от станции Треблинка ежедневно
подходили от одного до трех железнодорожных составов в день. В каждом
составе было до шестьдесят вагонов, и в каждом вагоне не менее ста
пятидесяти человек. Таких показаний мы собрали десятки.

siwiec
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Re: Number of deaths at Treblinka

Post by siwiec » 08 Nov 2010 17:27

Kajtmaz wrote:
vilak wrote:He was working at the treblinka railways station. He was a member of the Polish resistance and his duty was to keep track of the german army movments. July 23, 1942, The first transport of jews stopped at the station waiting to be redirected to the death camp. He saw the number of "passengers" written of the side of each car and decided to keep record of it. He did it for every train directed to the death camp until the camp closed. Then he added the numbers and found a result around 1.200.000 people sent to the extermination site.
...
1958, Vasily Grossman "The Hell Called Treblinka"

Polish man that worked at the treblinka railway was Luzian Cukowa (Люциан Цукова)
I think vilak is referring to this man, Franciszek Zabecki:

http://www.deathcamps.org/treblinka/zabecki.html

"The only surviving witness who was present at Treblinka from the very first day that the extermination camp began operations until the very last was in no doubt about the number of victims:
"I know," Zabecki stated, "the others guess. There were no German papers on which to base these estimates except those I rescued and hid – and they are inconclusive. But I stood there in that station day after day and counted the figures chalked on each carriage. I have added them up over and over and over. The number of people killed in Treblinka was 1,200.000, and there is no doubt about it whatsoever.""

Kajtmaz
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Re: Number of deaths at Treblinka

Post by Kajtmaz » 08 Nov 2010 17:45

siwiec wrote:I think vilak is referring to this man, Franciszek Zabecki:
http://www.deathcamps.org/treblinka/zabecki.html
Thank you, this information suits me.

vilak
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Re: Number of deaths at Treblinka

Post by vilak » 08 Nov 2010 19:29

siwiec wrote:
I think vilak is referring to this man, Franciszek Zabecki
Yes I was referring to him.
Thank you for backing me!
Do you think this man is a reliable source or not?

siwiec
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Re: Number of deaths at Treblinka

Post by siwiec » 08 Nov 2010 19:49

vilak wrote:
siwiec wrote:
I think vilak is referring to this man, Franciszek Zabecki
Yes I was referring to him.
Thank you for backing me!
Do you think this man is a reliable source or not?
Well, reliable to some extent but quite possibly he overestimated the figures, or made some mistakes in his calculations. I wonder if there really were those numbers of passengers written on all of the cars, perhaps he just estimated some of them, or did not see clearly each and everyone of them. We have Höfle's telegramm and Korherr-report from German side and estimates based on those seem to give slightly smaller figures.

siwiec
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Re: Number of deaths at Treblinka

Post by siwiec » 08 Nov 2010 20:04

By the way, I assume it was Samuel Rajzman who told there was celebration after 1 million victims. Here is an excerpt of his statement at Nuremberg trial:

http://avalon.law.yale.edu/imt/02-27-46.asp

"RAJZMAN: This man was deputy of the camp commander, Stengel, the biggest murderer in the camp. Kurt Franz was known for having published in January 1943, a report to the effect that a million Jews had been killed in Treblinka -- a report which had procured for him a promotion from the rank of SturmbannFuehrer to that of ObersturmbannFuehrer."

vilak
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Re: Number of deaths at Treblinka

Post by vilak » 08 Nov 2010 21:57

I definitly read the party stuff in one of those 3 books, not in a report. the survivor said the SS partied and even had the excavators make the nazi salute for this "one million party".

Siwiec, I was absolutly unaware that Franz had published such a report but for me it's another lead to put the total number of victims above the million mark don't you think?

That make three different sources from eyes-witnesses now!

vilak
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Re: Number of Victims of the Holocaust - Reference Thread

Post by vilak » 08 Nov 2010 22:03

michael mills wrote: Because the sources for it are too unreliable.

I absolutly don't want to have an argument with you so take my question for what it is please : just a question.

In the case of Treblinka, what sources have been recognized as a reliable one?

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