Technical details of cremation and fuel usage @ Auschwitz

[michael mills]

This argument assumes that the WWII cremation was comparable to modern, legal standards rather than merely some kind of expedient to get rid of most of the corpses.

No, it does no such thing.

The figures I quoted relate to the time taken to completely consume a given quantity of body mass, ie the amount of time that elapses from the point at which a given quantity of meat is introduced into a cremation furnace to the point at which only bone fragments remain and can be removed from the furnace. That amount of time is stated to be as short as one hour per 45 kilos of body weight in modern cremation furnaces.

The "modern, legal standards" kick in when the actual process of consuming of the body mass is completed. According to those standards, a new body cannot be introduced until the bone fragments remaing from the previous body have been removed. That means that the cremation cycle for one body is longer than the time it actually takes for that body to be fully consumed.

But the bottom line is that the physical process of reducing a body to a few bone fragments, and the time needed to complete that process, is the same in a modern crematory furnace as it was in the Auschwitz crematoria. Indeed, the duration of the process in a modern crematory furnace could well be shorter, due to its technological superiority to the furnaces installed at Auschwitz.

As for the numbers of dead at KL Birkenau, we don't have to deal with the 4 million Soviet figure, since modern estimates of the dead are considerably lower.

At the time the eyewitnesses made their post-war statements about the body-disposal process at Auschwitz, the figure of four million persons gassed and burned had been declared by the Soviet authorities, and indeed the statement by Tauber specifically supports that figure. The suspicion remains that the eyewitnesses exaggerated the number of corpses that could be cremated per unit of time in order to support the claim that four million persons could be gassed and burned within the period of operation of the Auschwitz crematoria.

[michael mills]

Uberjude,

Cremation times achieved in modern crematory furnaces suggest that an Auschwitz crematorium with 15 muffles, all operating simultaneously, could, at the fastest, completely reduce 15 corpses each weighing 45 kilos to bone fragments in one hour. That is an average of four minutes per corpse at the fastest.

To the extent that the corpses weighed more than 45 kilos, the cremation time would be longer.

The issue is whether the cremation rate, that is the number of corpses cremated per unit of time, was increased by introducing more than one body into a muffle in each load. Experience with modern crematory furnaces suggest that it was not. Doubling the number of corpses introduced in each load would just have doubled the cremation time, with the average time per corpse remaining the same.

As I wrote, experiments with loading more than one corpse per muffle were probably tried, but it is unlikely that that methodology reduced the average cremation time per corpse, and only resulted in damage to the furnaces.

[uberjude]

But there's still Bischoff's report--shall we presume that when he wrote it, he was also imagining a time in the future when he would need to support an exaggerated figure? And that somehow, Tauber made up figures that correspond to the numbers given by Bischoff? I think it's perfectly reasonable to suggest that Tauber inflated the numbers (though he only attested to 2 million killed during his tenure, and that he heard about another two million before), but that he also provided an accurate portrayal of the process, which is, of course, supported by other witnesses.

But let's clarify--are you arguing that the numbers of those cremated were lower, or do you accept the numbers, and argue only that the process was different from the one to which Tauber and others attested?

[siwiec]

But there's still Bischoff's report--shall we presume that when he wrote it, he was also imagining a time in the future when he would need to support an exaggerated figure?

Bischoff's report maybe an estimate based on experiences they had with ovens installed there. But we also have actual figures from a cremation time-sheet from Gusen in 1941, where it is said 94 bodies were burnt within 19 h 45 min by using Topf douple muffle oven. That means those older models could burn about 2,4 bodies per muffle, ie burning one body would take about 25 minutes.

http://www.holocaust-history.org/gusen- ... timesheet/

At the time the eyewitnesses made their post-war statements about the body-disposal process at Auschwitz, the figure of four million persons gassed and burned had been declared by the Soviet authorities, and indeed the statement by Tauber specifically supports that figure.

When exactly was the four million figure "declared" by the Soviets? Soviet reports made right after liberation suggest that four million figure came from the inmates:

http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot. ... 67271.html

[LWD]

...
The figures I quoted relate to the time taken to completely consume a given quantity of body mass, ie the amount of time that elapses from the point at which a given quantity of meat is introduced into a cremation furnace to the point at which only bone fragments remain and can be removed from the furnace. That amount of time is stated to be as short as one hour per 45 kilos of body weight in modern cremation furnaces.
....

I'm not at all sure that this is correct. Depending on the fuel and how they were consturcted the Auschwitz crematorium could be either quicker, slower, or the same as modern ones. For instance modern ones are run as buisnesses and have to meet certain standards. The fuel and construction can affect how efficient the process is and the legal regulations now call for a very complete combustion. The Germans may have been willing to settle for less complete combustion or have run at higher temperatures. Burning multiple bodies vs singular ones can also have some effects. In summary a blanket assumption such as we see above is not justified at this time at least based on the data submited.

[uberjude]

happy to stand corrected, Siwiec, especially since it bolsters my point. Tauber's four million therefore becomes not a result of Soviet pressure, but exaggeration and rumor, which are normal enough, and have no bearing on his statements regarding the process, with which he was intimately involved.

As for Gusen, the timesheet shows what was done, on a certain day, with certain ovens. It doesn't provide a limit to what could be done, with newer ovens, if necessity demanded it and experience allowed for it.

And that, I think is an element missing in all this discussion of what is normal or probable. When Michael writes

it is unlikely that that methodology reduced the average cremation time per corpse

I can say that based on normal world experience, he's probably right--it is unlikely But then, lots of things that really happen are unlikely. The fact is that no authority on cremation today can definitively say what would happen in Auschwitz conditions, because none of them have experienced such conditions. A mortician might learn the basics of cremation, and might have a lot of experience with individual cremations, but it's not like in school he was told "Okay class, today we're going to throw two kids, a fat man,and a thin woman in the oven and see how long it takes. Then, immediately after, we'll throw in one kid, two medium sized women, and a thin man." For someone today, that's a gruesome hypothetical; for the Sonderkommando, that was daily life, and they had to get this down to a science. They weren't just cramming corpses into the muffle.Consider Tauber's discussion of placement of corpses--i.e., where they placed fat vs. thin corpses to achieve the most efficient results. So I can agree with everything that's said about the theory of cremation, but the only place in which these theories could actually be tested in condtions like Auschwitz was Auschwitz itself, so when all the sonderkommando and the personnel who were asked about it all say that multiple bodies were cremated at once, I'm more inclined to believe them that such a thing is possible than a website called "The Intelligent Woman's Guide to Cremation."

[JamesL]

One might note that when the cremetoria became overloaded the sonderkommandos reverted to burning excess bodies in open pits.

This Youtube link dealing with sonderkommandos provides some support testimony. The third speaker makes mention of such actions taking place.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5SoTJ9cv028

Not every body was burned in an oven at Auschwitz.

[michael mills]

A note on the four million figure.

According to Reitlinger, the Soviets claimed that they had worked the number out based on the operation of the crematoria, taking into account the period of operation of each crematorium and allowing for the necessary downtime for maintenance etc.

In other words, the Soviets estimated a figure for the number of corpses that could be burned in each crematorium per unit of time, multiplied that figure by the known period of operation of that crematorium, subtracted an allowance for downtime, and came up with the total of four million.

The question is whether incredibly short cremation times were claimed in order to support the calculation made by the Soviets.

What is at issue is not whether several bodies were introduced into a single muffle at once and cremated together. The issue is whether the total body mass represented by those bodies could be consumed to the point at which a subsequnt batch of bodies could be introduced within the very short times claimed, eg 15 minutes, or 30 minutes, whatever.

The rate of one hour to consume 45 kilos of body mass achieved in modern crematory furnaces provides a useful gauge to assess claims made by eyewitnesses to the cremation process in the Auschwitz crematoria.

[siwiec]

A note on the four million figure.

According to Reitlinger, the Soviets claimed that they had worked the number out based on the operation of the crematoria, taking into account the period of operation of each crematorium and allowing for the necessary downtime for maintenance etc.

It is true that Soviet engineers made their own calculations, but figures between four and five million were given by the inmates before that. So I think it is not correct to say Tauber or others somehow tried to support the Soviet figures when describing the process of cremation. Tauber was interrogated already in February 1945, report by Soviet engineers was finished much after that.

[Disgraced_Duke]

A good place to find out the details of burn rates, capacity can be found at this website...
http://www.cremsys.com/Pet_Cremation_Chambers.html
The company, Cremation Systems, is located in Illinois, and specs for human cremation chambers can be found by clicking the appropriate link on the left side of the page (they manufacture systems for pets, humans, and large animals)
the CFS-2300, made for incinerating humans has a 150 lbs per hour cremation burn rate...
the Large Animal Incinerator has a 200 lb per hour cremation rate...
One thing that needs to be considered is that these incinerators burn at these rates after benefitting from 70 years of technological improvement...
just something to consider...

[uberjude]

Once again, Duke, the figures given for a modern, industry standard cremation of one body don't tell us anything about what could be done, only about what is done. Those same standards and rules obviously didn't apply in Auschwitz. You might as well say that there couldn't have been mass graves in Auschwitz because modern funeral industry standards don't allow more than one body per grave.

[wm]

A good place to find out the details of burn rates, capacity can be found at this website

Unfortunately the comparison is not valid. It is start-stop operation with corresponding huge energy losses. Continuous operation, burning many bodies at once would be faster but of course is strictly forbidden.
Additionally I suppose the desirable feature of modern crematorium is conservation of fuel not fast operation.

Another mistaken assumption is the supposedly inevitable technological improvement. but there have been no important technical improvements lately. In fact the 19th century was a golden age of thermodynamics (physics of heat/energy). Everything important was inwented at that time.

If the above statement is correct, then the greater the mass of body weight introduced into a creamtion furnace, ie the greater the number of bodies, the longer it will take for the cremation process to be completed.

The bodies are cremated in parallel so the cremation time stays the same. In other words, the second body doesn't have to wait till the first is cremated.
Furthermore they supply their own fuel. Fat is an excellent fuel, better than wood and coal (energy content of fat: 38 MJ/kg, wood: 18, coal: 31). In fact it is possible to cremate entire body using its own fat: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/158853.stm

the damage sustained by the crematory ovens supports the statements that several bodies were introduced into a muffle at the same time, since the greater the body mass introduced into the furnace, the higher the temperature that will be reached inside the furnace one all the water content of the body mass has been vaporised and the carbon content ignites, creating the risk of damage to the furnace lining.

But water is released gradually and simultaneously with cremation. It is a strange concept that the fire has to wait till the entire body is dry. Because water has huge heat capacity, (about 4 times that of air by mass, about 3000 by volume) it can very efficiently remove excess heat through the chimney. So in the end water helps in cremation.
And of course if there is a risk of damage you can always reduce draft and lower the temperature.

The speed of cremation is entirely dependent on the amount of energy present in the system. More energy (more burnt fuel) means shorter times. In extreme cases the time maybe very short. People near Shima Hospital in Hiroshima, directly below the nuclear explosion, were reduced to ashes almost instantly.

[wm]

There is an article from Süddeutsche Zeitung:

http://archiv.sueddeutsche.de/sueddz/in ... HGRTREWRSR

explaining how engineers from Topf & Söhne were able to cut the total cremation time of an oven full load (4-5 bodies) from 40 minutes down to 5-7 minutes. Hartmut Topf, grandson of the founder of Topf & Söhne, served as consultant for this article. He was one of the founders of Topf & Sons Place of Remembrance, a museum site in Erfurt. I suppose books provided there:

http://www.topfundsoehne.de/cms-www/index.php?id=70&l=1

have much more informations on this subject.

[michael mills]

The bodies are cremated in parallel so the cremation time stays the same. In other words, the second body doesn't have to wait till the first is cremated.

WM,

You have misunderstood the point. Cremation time does not depend on the number of individual corpses being burnt at one time, but on the total body mass being cremated. The greater the body mass, ie the total amount of meat, the longer the cremation time, regardless of whether that body mass consists of one large body, two medium-sized bodies or even three small bodies.

The cremation time per amount of body mass in animal incinerators is a good indicator of what can be achieved in terms of fastest cremation times, since there are not the same legal restraints as with human cremations. Thus any number of animal carcasses can be cremated at the same time in an animal incinerator, up to the maximum capacity for safe operation, ie operation that will not damage the incinerator.

Accordingly, the cremation rate of a Large Animal Incinerator, 200 lbs per hour, is a good guide to the speed of cremation that could be achieved in the disposal of human corpses when the legal and ethical restraints are removed and those human ccorpses can be treated in the same way as animal corpses. The cremation rate would be the same, regardless of whether the 200 lbs of flesh being cremated per hour is bovine, ovine, porcine or Jewish.

WM, when you write

Unfortunately the comparison is not valid. It is start-stop operation with corresponding huge energy losses. Continuous operation, burning many bodies at once would be faster but of course is strictly forbidden.

you have again failed to understand the issue.

It is only with human cremations that continuous operation is forbidden. In the case of animal cremations, eg of diseased livestock, there are no legal constraints on the number of carcasses that can be incinerated at one time. Therefore, modern disposal of animal carcasses in incinerators is a good guide to the process of incineration of Jewish corpses in the Auschwitz crematoria, including to the cremation rates that could have been realistically achieved.

Taking the rate of 200 lbs of body mass per hour as a guide, if the average body mass of the Jews being cremated was 50 lbs ( a reasonable assumption given that a large part of the cremation task consisted of female and juvenile corpses) then four could be incinerated in one hour. If the total Jewish body mass loaded into a muffle in a single charge were greater than 200 lbs, then the incineration time would be correspondingly longer.

[michael mills]

In fact it is possible to cremate entire body using its own fat:

WM,

You continue to misunderstand what you read.

The article you linked, about "spontaneous combustion", refers to the wick effect. That effect depends on organic material containing fat being wrapped in a combustible material such as clothing, similar to a wax candle.

When the wrapping catches fire, the heat melts the fat in the organic material inside the wrapping. The fat then flows into the wrapping, thereby sustaining its combustion, which continues until all the organic material is consumed.

The wick effect specifically does not obtain during a cremation in an incinerator. As the article itself states, in a cremation the bones are not fully consumed, whereas in a "spontaneous combustion" they can be.