Of 120,000 soldiers from 6th army captured, only 5000 return

FormerSoldier · Post by **FormerSoldier** » 23 Feb 2003 04:35

The above title (statement) is amazing to me. How can that be defended, and why weren't the Soviets also tried for war crimes?

This doesn't relieve the Germans of their crimes, but what of that fact? 5000 of 120,000?

Oleg Grigoryev · Post by **Oleg Grigoryev** » 23 Feb 2003 05:30

have you ever read Helmut Weltz memories? he was one out of thouse 5000 ?

In the week following the surrender it becomes somewhat more spacious. Many of those, who laid next to us, already resting forever in the street. Reason? - typhus, dysentery, the loss of the resistibility of organism. Indeed for about seventy days we barely obtained food. But now people die from the hunger with the piece of bread and sausage in the hand. Organism acepts nothing. Doctors rock their head and perform autopsy on the next one .It shows :contraction and ant peristalsis of bowels and stomach - they cannot fulfill their functions. Ninety percent of all prisoners went into the camp with the high temperature. In spite of the most thorough care, many of them can no longer be saved. Russian doctors fight for each life .Nurses sit by the beds day and night. They do everything that they can, they do not spare forces and even their life: indeed many of them are infected also and in several days repeat the way of its patients .One of the prisoners, opening food can, cut left hand. From wound escaped three drops of the blood. this it is sufficient .That wounded lies down on the cot, and dies in five minutes. Hungry psychosis is retained, in spite of regular nourishment. We lost the measure of all things. We fear to die of the exhaustion, if we do not eat up anything through each of half-hour. this gives birth to the sensation of the unquenchable hunger

my translation.

FormerSoldier · Post by **FormerSoldier** » 23 Feb 2003 06:14

sure, yes, but 115,000 dead, who surrendered? I don't think that can only be from disease? can it?

CHRISCHA · Post by **CHRISCHA** » 23 Feb 2003 10:57

Except for those that tuned traitor and fought in the Von Seydlitz army, none of the soldiers that surrendered at Stalingrad received either medical supplies or quantities of food, hence the high death rate. I beleive many were forced into working, mines, etc. but I stand to be corrected on this point. Remember, Stalin ordered that all Russian POW's repatriated at the end of the war be tried for desertion, and most were forced to work in Siberian mines for five years. All loyal citizens would have fought until dead! With this in mind, no wonder German POW's were so ill treated. The German's didn't treat captured Soviets much better though.

Peter H · Post by **Peter H** » 23 Feb 2003 11:38

The majority of the 5,000 who survived were officers as well.The Soviets nutured a lot of the specialists and the Seydlitz crowd for a postwar role.

Very few of the rank and file survived.50,000 odd died within a few weeks of their capture through disease.

Musashi · Post by **Musashi** » 23 Feb 2003 12:27

115000 German POWs its really NOTHING comparing to the numbers of the Soviet POWs who died in the German camps.

Regards

Andy H · Post by **Andy H** » 23 Feb 2003 12:40

No sane person would try and defend the low % of survivors, but given the nature of warfare at the time, the economic realities of Russia, the state of the POW's when captured, then one can forsee why things turned out the way that they did, it doesnt make it right but that was the reality.

Andy

Eightball · Post by **Eightball** » 23 Feb 2003 13:19

It was also quite common to shoot POWs at that time. So some might have felt victim to bullets, though that all were shot is unlikely.

FormerSoldier · Post by **FormerSoldier** » 23 Feb 2003 15:45

Musashi wrote:115000 German POWs its really NOTHING comparing to the numbers of the Soviet POWs who died in the German camps.

Regards

My point still stands. The Germans were also guilty of maltreatment of Russian soldiers, funny enough, though, not British or American, which leads me to think it was largely retaliatory. However, a war crime is a war crime, no matter if retaliatory or not... where were the allied courts then? I still think that Stalin should have been tried for what he did to his own returning soldiers (brave men all) and the captured Germans. There is nothing you can say to change my mind!

Hitler=Stalin in my book.

Karl da Kraut · Post by **Karl da Kraut** » 23 Feb 2003 17:46

Well, according to my sources ca. 100,000 German soldiers fell into Soviet hands in Stalingrad. Ca. 6000 of these would eventually return home.

It is interesting, however, that the the enourmsly high death ratio didn't apply to the senior officers. One fieldmarshal and 21 generals were caputured, but only one general died (stroke)...

Chrischa wrote:

Except for those that tuned traitor and fought in the Von Seydlitz army, [...]

I guess you're confusing things here. On July 12th 1943 the "Bund deutscher Offiziere" (BDO) was founded in the Soviet POW camp Lunjovo. Gen. d. Art. Walther von Seydlitz-Kurzbach became it's chairman. The BDO was NOT a fighting force, but served propaganda aims. GFM Paulus joined the BDO after the July 20th 1944.

[After the end of the war the BDO was no longer needed. The Soviets even sentenced Seydlitz to death in 1950, later "pardonning" him to 25 years of hard labour. He was released in October 1955 and chose to return to Western Germany.]

Musashi wrote:

115000 German POWs its really NOTHING comparing to the numbers of the Soviet POWs who died in the German camps.

It always seems a little illegitimate to justify warcrimes with warcrimes of the opponent. I think what strikes most people concerning this matter is - if we take the 100,000/6,000 figure - that 94% (!) of those unfortunate men captured at Stalingrad had to die. This thread deals with the Stalingrad POW, anyways, so we should try to avoid to lift this topic to higher dimensions at the current point of discussion.

wildboar · Post by **wildboar** » 23 Feb 2003 18:27

FormerSoldier wrote:The above title (statement) is amazing to me. How can that be defended, and why weren't the Soviets also tried for war crimes?

This doesn't relieve the Germans of their crimes, but what of that fact? 5000 of 120,000?

None of German soldiers who surrendered at stalingrad received any medical treatment.
only officers who served stalins propganda purpose received medical treatment.

all german soldiers who surrendered at stalingrad were handed over from red-army custody to nvkd custody on stalins order
NVKD transfered all those to gulag slave labour camps in siberia
all those pows who were tranfered to gulag slave labour camp died due to overwork underworst conditions and purposeful starvation by nvkd and denial of medical aid by nvkd

David Thompson · Post by **David Thompson** » 23 Feb 2003 20:12

wildboar -- You said: "None of German soldiers who surrendered at stalingrad received any medical treatment.
only officers who served stalins propganda purpose received medical treatment. "

Source, please.

will smith · Post by **will smith** » 23 Feb 2003 20:18

I'd have to stand by the oinion that the percentages of german soldiers who died in prison camps although horrendous was still no where near the amout of russians who met thier end at german hands also its worth mentioning that captured germans were usually shot out of hand after being cut about a bit (particularily SS) also the amount of prisners taken by the red army was lower than those taken by the german army. this subject is usually a contentious one but most germans on the eastern front would have preffered death to being taken alive not through sheer bravado or anything like that the fact was the Heer knew what to expect if taken by the red army

Lupo Solitario · Post by **Lupo Solitario** » 23 Feb 2003 22:40

Is it possible to know if the stated ratio of 95% of death for german POWs after stalingrad is correct or no? And if no, which is the correct one? Which is the ratio considering entire war?

Krasnaya Zvezda · Post by **Krasnaya Zvezda** » 23 Feb 2003 23:10

FormerSoldier wrote:The above title (statement) is amazing to me. How can that be defended, and why weren't the Soviets also tried for war crimes?

This doesn't relieve the Germans of their crimes, but what of that fact? 5000 of 120,000?

In order to make any meaningful conclusion out of your post one, like in everything else, has to compare valid things. Otherwise info taken out of context is biased and leads to erroneous conclusion.

For one if you want to compare the faith of German prisoners you would have to compare it with all the prisoners incarcerated in Soviet union by Stalin on a political basis and their mortality rates. If we find that the same destiny awaited Russian sent to gulag and the German sent to neighboring working camp than the common equator here is Stalin treatment and that specially bad conditions did not existed only for Germans., that is Germans were not singled out in maltreatment.

On the other hand we know the faith of Soviet prisoners of war in Germany and we know the one of other (British, American, etc) prisoner of wars. One can not escape the feeling that the Soviet was treated very, very much differently and basically Soviet POW was not considered to be worthy of living, therefore the mortality rate was higher than 50%, the rest were preserved so that they can work.

So unless if you can not provide any conclusion on welfare superiority of other prisoners non Germans comapred with German POW your post means nothing!

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Of 120,000 soldiers from 6th army captured, only 5000 return

Of 120,000 soldiers from 6th army captured, only 5000 return

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