Soviet Union murdered German Prisoner of wars

Discussions on the Holocaust and 20th Century War Crimes. Note that Holocaust denial is not allowed. Hosted by David Thompson.
Sid Guttridge
Member
Posts: 10158
Joined: 12 Jun 2008, 12:19

Re: Soviet Union murdered German Prisoner of wars

#46

Post by Sid Guttridge » 08 Jan 2021, 15:22

Hi Micheal,

Why would we "assume that of the 85,500 Wehrmacht personnel recorded as MIA before November 1942, half died before being taken prisoner by the Red Army, that would mean that of some 40,000 who were taken prisoner, only 9000 were still alive as of March 1944"?

Cheers,

Sid

ljadw
Member
Posts: 15589
Joined: 13 Jul 2009, 18:50

Re: Soviet Union murdered German Prisoner of wars

#47

Post by ljadw » 08 Jan 2021, 20:21

Sid Guttridge wrote:
01 Jan 2021, 04:08
Hi Guys,

According to Overmans, the German prisoners of war held by the Soviet Union were, by year and quarter:

Year Q Number of German POWs
1941 IV 26,000
1942 I 120,000
1942 II 120,000
1942 III 110,000
1942 IV 100,000
1943 I 170,000
1943 II 160,000
1943 III 190,000
1943 IV 200,000
1944 I 240,000
1944 II 370,000
1944 III 560,000
1944 IV 560,000
1945 I 1,100,000
1945 II 2,000,000
1945 III 1,900,000
1945 IV 1,400,000
1946 IV 1,100,000
1947 IV 840,000
1948 IV 500,000
1949 IV 85,000
1950 IV 29,000

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_pr ... viet_Union

Cheers,

Sid.
Overmans,and other German sources are the last and the least to be used about the number of German POWs in the USSR ,because : very simply : the Soviets did not tell Berlin the number of German POWs. Thus there was no way the Germans could know about this number .
The result of the Maschke Commission,which worked during years on this subject,was : we don't know how many Germans became Soviet POWs, what happened to them, and how many survived .
The Soviets also didn't know .


Sid Guttridge
Member
Posts: 10158
Joined: 12 Jun 2008, 12:19

Re: Soviet Union murdered German Prisoner of wars

#48

Post by Sid Guttridge » 09 Jan 2021, 12:09

Hi ljadw,

You post, "Overmans, and other German sources are the last and the least to be used about the number of German POWs in the USSR ,because : very simply : the Soviets did not tell Berlin the number of German POWs. Thus there was no way the Germans could know about this number .
The result of the Maschke Commission,which worked during years on this subject, was : we don't know how many Germans became Soviet POWs, what happened to them, and how many survived.
"

Perhaps you should be addressing this to Michael Mills, as well?

Overmans (and Michael Mills) are trying to reconstruct matters from a paucity of information for the reasons you give. I think they should be applauded for their efforts.

You also say, "The Soviets also didn't know." Apart from this being unlikely in such a highly bureaucratized state, how can you be so certain of this? Have you been gifted second sight that others have not?

Cheers,

Sid.

Art
Forum Staff
Posts: 7028
Joined: 04 Jun 2004, 20:49
Location: Moscow, Russia

Re: Soviet Union murdered German Prisoner of wars

#49

Post by Art » 09 Jan 2021, 15:23

michael mills wrote:
08 Jan 2021, 10:26
Let us for the sake of argument assume that of the 85,500 Wehrmacht personnel recorded as MIA before November 1942, half died before being taken prisoner by the Red Army, that would mean that of some 40,000 who were taken prisoner
Such broad assumptions always raise the question of their credibility.
On 22 October 1942 Aleksandr Shcherbakov reported to Stalin that approximately 20,000 POWs were taken on the Soviet front in the first 16 months of the war according to the Red Army's General Staff:
Image
That was in good agreement with 19,782 POWs reportedly accepted by the NKVD before 19 November 1942.

Sid Guttridge
Member
Posts: 10158
Joined: 12 Jun 2008, 12:19

Re: Soviet Union murdered German Prisoner of wars

#50

Post by Sid Guttridge » 09 Jan 2021, 15:54

Hi Art,

I don't suppose that you are in a position to translate the whole thing?

In appreciation,

Sid.

ljadw
Member
Posts: 15589
Joined: 13 Jul 2009, 18:50

Re: Soviet Union murdered German Prisoner of wars

#51

Post by ljadw » 09 Jan 2021, 17:26

Sid Guttridge wrote:
09 Jan 2021, 12:09
Hi ljadw,

You post, "Overmans, and other German sources are the last and the least to be used about the number of German POWs in the USSR ,because : very simply : the Soviets did not tell Berlin the number of German POWs. Thus there was no way the Germans could know about this number .
The result of the Maschke Commission,which worked during years on this subject, was : we don't know how many Germans became Soviet POWs, what happened to them, and how many survived.
"

Perhaps you should be addressing this to Michael Mills, as well?

Overmans (and Michael Mills) are trying to reconstruct matters from a paucity of information for the reasons you give. I think they should be applauded for their efforts.

You also say, "The Soviets also didn't know." Apart from this being unlikely in such a highly bureaucratized state, how can you be so certain of this? Have you been gifted second sight that others have not?

Cheers,

Sid.
The only who COULD know the number of'' German'' POWs were the Soviets ,and they claimed 2,4 million of whom they said 400000 died in captivity .
But , these 2,4 million were
a those who arrived at the POW camps, NOT those who were taken POWs,a lot died underway to the camps .
b not all (but we will never know how many ) were military ,as after the German capitulation the Soviets took ''POW" a lot of civilian males .
c it is unclear if the number of 2,4 million included also Austrians.
For the Germans,it is even worse : they said after the war that between 3,2 and 3,6 million (look at the marge ) adult Germans were still missing .They did not know how many of those were military,were Germans, became Soviet POWs,and finally they said that 1 + million adult male Germans were missing (3,6 million minus 2,4 million ) .
There is no reason to believe this claim as the number of 3,2/3,6 million and the number of 2,4 million are both totally unproven and unreliable .
15 million Germans were leaving their homes after the war ( voluntarily/involuntarily ) and it is very possible that there is the explanation for the missing 1 million.But we will never know .

ljadw
Member
Posts: 15589
Joined: 13 Jul 2009, 18:50

Re: Soviet Union murdered German Prisoner of wars

#52

Post by ljadw » 09 Jan 2021, 17:32

Take the German figure of 85000 MIA before November 1942 : this has NOTHING to do with the number of POWs .
MIA are soldiers who are missing and of whom no one knows what happened to them .

ljadw
Member
Posts: 15589
Joined: 13 Jul 2009, 18:50

Re: Soviet Union murdered German Prisoner of wars

#53

Post by ljadw » 09 Jan 2021, 18:00

About Overmans : he has been criticised by Zetterling ,or better debunked .And his reliability is very low .
There are several threads about Overmans .

Sid Guttridge
Member
Posts: 10158
Joined: 12 Jun 2008, 12:19

Re: Soviet Union murdered German Prisoner of wars

#54

Post by Sid Guttridge » 09 Jan 2021, 18:31

Hi ljadw,

Make up your mind.

In post #47 you posted, "The Soviets also didn't know.".

By #51 it was, "The only who COULD know the number of'' German'' POWs were the Soviets....."

In the first you said something with absolute certainty, as if you knew this for a fact.

When I challenged you on it, you no longer claim to know, just that the only the Russians could know.

Cheers,

Sid.

Sid Guttridge
Member
Posts: 10158
Joined: 12 Jun 2008, 12:19

Re: Soviet Union murdered German Prisoner of wars

#55

Post by Sid Guttridge » 09 Jan 2021, 18:32

Hi ljadw,

Make up your mind.

In post #47 you posted, "The Soviets also didn't know.".

By #51 it was, "The only who COULD know the number of'' German'' POWs were the Soviets....."

In the first you said something with absolute certainty, as if you knew this for a fact.

When I challenged you on it, you no longer claim to know, just that the only the Russians could know.

Cheers,

Sid.

Art
Forum Staff
Posts: 7028
Joined: 04 Jun 2004, 20:49
Location: Moscow, Russia

Re: Soviet Union murdered German Prisoner of wars

#56

Post by Art » 10 Jan 2021, 08:51

Sid Guttridge wrote:
09 Jan 2021, 15:54
I don't suppose that you are in a position to translate the whole thing?
That's just one page from a document (fully published several years ago). In essence Shcherbakov presented the losses on the Eastern Front in 16 months (22.6.41-22.10.42) according to calculations of the Soviet General Staff.

Germany (including allies, I guess): 9,330,000 men, including:
3,188,000 killed
6,122,000 wounded
20,000 prisoners

Soviet Union:
10,406,079, including:
1,526,712 killed
6,375,555 wounded
2,480,349 missing in action
23,363 POWs

Also 339,767 non-combat losses to diseases and accidents.

ljadw
Member
Posts: 15589
Joined: 13 Jul 2009, 18:50

Re: Soviet Union murdered German Prisoner of wars

#57

Post by ljadw » 10 Jan 2021, 12:07

Sid Guttridge wrote:
09 Jan 2021, 18:32
Hi ljadw,

Make up your mind.

In post #47 you posted, "The Soviets also didn't know.".

By #51 it was, "The only who COULD know the number of'' German'' POWs were the Soviets....."

In the first you said something with absolute certainty, as if you knew this for a fact.

When I challenged you on it, you no longer claim to know, just that the only the Russians could know.

Cheers,

Sid.
There is no opposition between both:
The Soviets were the only who could know the number of German POWs ,but they did not know it .
It was the same for the Germans : at the end of 1941 they decreased the number of Soviet POWs by several hundred of thousands,admitting that their earlier numbers were wrong, but there is no proof that their corrected figures were correct .


The Germans were the only who could know the number of Soviet POWs, but they did not know it .

Sid Guttridge
Member
Posts: 10158
Joined: 12 Jun 2008, 12:19

Re: Soviet Union murdered German Prisoner of wars

#58

Post by Sid Guttridge » 10 Jan 2021, 13:34

Hi ljadw,

I would refer you to Art's post #49 above.

Cheers,

Sid.

ljadw
Member
Posts: 15589
Joined: 13 Jul 2009, 18:50

Re: Soviet Union murdered German Prisoner of wars

#59

Post by ljadw » 10 Jan 2021, 18:47

Sid Guttridge wrote:
10 Jan 2021, 13:34
Hi ljadw,

I would refer you to Art's post #49 above.

Cheers,

Sid.
The claims of the Soviet military are good for under the bus : Germany had NOT lost between June 1941 and October 1942 3,188,000 killed and 6,122,000 wounded . Besides there is no way that the Soviets COULD know the number of German KIA,WIA, MIA . The Germans themselves did not know it .
It is the same for the Soviet losses : the Soviets could not know the number of their soldiers that were in German captivity, besides the number of 23,363 POWs is totally absurd . And, how could the Soviets know how many of their soldiers were killed ?
These figures are made up .

Sid Guttridge
Member
Posts: 10158
Joined: 12 Jun 2008, 12:19

Re: Soviet Union murdered German Prisoner of wars

#60

Post by Sid Guttridge » 11 Jan 2021, 02:06

Hi ljadw,

You post, "Besides there is no way that the Soviets COULD know the number of German KIA,WIA, MIA."

Very true.!

However, they certainly could know how many POWs they were holding.

Cheers,

Sid.

Post Reply

Return to “Holocaust & 20th Century War Crimes”