As I wrote previously, the brutal Polish ethnocentrism of Somosierra, Davey Boy et al, involving the disparagement of other ethnic groups such as the Ukrainians, is no more pleasant than brutal German ethnocentrism.
During the 20th century, Eastern Europe was the locus of extremely violent ethnic conflict. Almost all the ethnic groups of the area have been both perpetrators and victims of such violence. Members of almost every ethnic group have at times persecuted and killed innocent members of other ethnic groups.
After the resurrection of an independent Poland, agents of the Polish Government persecuted members of the Ukrainian minority who wished to secede from Poland and unite with Russian Ukraine. During the Second World War, Ukrainian nationalist insurgents took their revenge on the Poles living in their midst.
During the German occupation of parts of the Soviet Occupation during the Second World war, some Poles and Ukrainians took the opportunity to persecute and kill the Jews living in their midst, either in collaboration with the German occupiers or on their own initiative. However, some Jews had previously played a major role in the Soviet persecution of Poles and Ukrainians.
No ethnic group in Eastern Europe was solely a victim or solely a victimiser. Where an ethnic group fell victim to violence, the individual victims were mostly innocent. Where an ethnic group was a perpetrator of violence, it was not all the members of the group that were guilty, but only some. Thus in every case, the innocent victims of persecution and violence were paying the price for the persecution and violence perpetrated by some of their kinsmen.
Wolyn/Volhynia in World War II
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michael mills
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Somosierra wrote:
Piotrowski shows how the ethnic cleansing campaign was conducted by Ukrainian nationalists who had rebelled against German rule in 1943. The nationalist UPA got its weapons from Ukrainain auxiliary police wh had deserted en masse from their German commanders. The members of the UPA in no way were acting in concert with the German occupiers, or under their command.
Piotrowski also shows that the Germans were unable to stop the UPA because they dide not have the numbers. The German occupation forces were concentrated in certain strongpoints, and Piotrowski shows how Polish refugees from Ukrainian violence fled to those German strongpoints. In some cases, the German forces gave arms to the POlish refugees so that they could defend themselves. In one case recorded by Piotrowski, the Polish refugees included some disguised Jews, who likewise received arms.
However, I did not expect Somosierra or any of the other Polish chauvinists on the forum to actually read the book. I am sure they would rather keep their nationalist prejudices intact.
I suggest Somosierra consult the book "Genocide and rescue in Wolyn : recollections of the Ukrainian nationalist ethnic cleansing campaign against the Poles during World War II", edited by Tadeusz Piotrowski.Than you wrote on “German garrisons which protected Poles” – NO my historian, the genocide was committed with a silent “YES” of the Nazi-German authorities.
Piotrowski shows how the ethnic cleansing campaign was conducted by Ukrainian nationalists who had rebelled against German rule in 1943. The nationalist UPA got its weapons from Ukrainain auxiliary police wh had deserted en masse from their German commanders. The members of the UPA in no way were acting in concert with the German occupiers, or under their command.
Piotrowski also shows that the Germans were unable to stop the UPA because they dide not have the numbers. The German occupation forces were concentrated in certain strongpoints, and Piotrowski shows how Polish refugees from Ukrainian violence fled to those German strongpoints. In some cases, the German forces gave arms to the POlish refugees so that they could defend themselves. In one case recorded by Piotrowski, the Polish refugees included some disguised Jews, who likewise received arms.
However, I did not expect Somosierra or any of the other Polish chauvinists on the forum to actually read the book. I am sure they would rather keep their nationalist prejudices intact.
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Somosierra
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They did not manage to hide in Germans garrisons…
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http://nowy0002.republika.pl/1024x768/rys2b.JPG
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Slaughter Polish men from village Polowce. They were taken on January 16, 1944 by a band of UPA and next they were found in a forest. The victims were tortured; they had massacre faces, ears and noses were cut off, eyes were hollow out, etc…
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http://nowy0002.republika.pl/1024x768/rys2b.JPG
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Slaughter Polish men from village Polowce. They were taken on January 16, 1944 by a band of UPA and next they were found in a forest. The victims were tortured; they had massacre faces, ears and noses were cut off, eyes were hollow out, etc…
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David Thompson
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Mr. Mills,michael mills wrote: I suggest Somosierra consult the book "Genocide and rescue in Wolyn : recollections of the Ukrainian nationalist ethnic cleansing campaign against the Poles during World War II", edited by Tadeusz Piotrowski.
Piotrowski shows how the ethnic cleansing campaign was conducted by Ukrainian nationalists who had rebelled against German rule in 1943. The nationalist UPA got its weapons from Ukrainain auxiliary police wh had deserted en masse from their German commanders. The members of the UPA in no way were acting in concert with the German occupiers, or under their command.
Piotrowski also shows that the Germans were unable to stop the UPA because they dide not have the numbers. The German occupation forces were concentrated in certain strongpoints, and Piotrowski shows how Polish refugees from Ukrainian violence fled to those German strongpoints. In some cases, the German forces gave arms to the POlish refugees so that they could defend themselves. In one case recorded by Piotrowski, the Polish refugees included some disguised Jews, who likewise received arms.
However, I did not expect Somosierra or any of the other Polish chauvinists on the forum to actually read the book. I am sure they would rather keep their nationalist prejudices intact.
I take offense at your labeling of the Polish participants of this forum as chauvinists. The Polish perspective, or as you classify it ""nationalist prejudice", on the events of WW2 is scarce. More often than not one receives incorrect information, or no information at all. And when the terrible suffering of the Polish nation (much of which is unknown) is discussed, a typical retort such as “No ethnic group in Eastern Europe was solely a victim or solely a victimizer” is often the case. While this generalization is obviously true, there is no doubt that the Poles were at the receiving end of immeasurably more evil than they ever perpetrated.
Tadeusz Piotrowski’s Genocide and Rescue in Wolyn, which I have read, is indeed a very balanced and objective work. In addition to the absolutely horrible testimonies of the inhuman murder of innocent Poles are accounts of the heroism of Ukrainians who were murdered by their own countrymen after daring to assist Poles. Moreover, it does not vindicate the German occupier of these territories during the slaughter. Quite to the contrary in fact.
Samosierra’s statement “the genocide was committed with a silent “YES” of the Nazi-German authorities” is entirely accurate. The Germans were horrified bystanders to the bestial atrocities committed by the Ukrainian Nationalists, but did little to help. Quite simply, the illegal presence of the German invader on Polish soil was a significant factor that allowed the Ukrainians free reign in their criminal behavior. For example (excerpted from the book):
“ Among the probable reasons for the extent and barbarity of this slaughter…and for the relative absence of defensive strategies…:
- The liquidation of Polish intelligentsia by the Nazis
- The massive deportations of able bodied civilians (Poles and Ukrainians) to Germany for forced labour. The Ukrainian Nationalists…were either in German uniforms or in the ranks of the UPA
- The “crime” of bearing arms, punishable by death (while the Ukrainian Nationalists were legally armed)
- …defenseless and inexperienced civilians were confronted by German trained and German-equipped Ukrainian military and paramilitary personnel
Lastly, your statement: “Piotrowski also shows that the Germans were unable to stop the UPA because they dide not have the numbers” is misleading. It is clear from Piotrowski’s account that there was little interest in doing so. Remember, the ultimate objective of the German invader was first the elimination of the Jews, and then all other ‘untermensch’ – which included the Poles as a prime target. Why hinder the progress?
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Benoit Douville
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Michael Mills have to recognized that the Poles is the nation who suffered the most during World War II. Nobody is clean I agree, the Poles are supposed to be responsible for the Jedwabne massacre according to some historians but then again we are not sure about that. Facts are facts and the Poles suffered amazingly by the Germans, the Russians and the the UPA. The number of warcrimes against them is endless.
Regards
Regards
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michael mills
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PolAntek wrote:
In fact, some German noted that the anti-Jewish measures had spread a fear among Poles that the same measures would later be applied to them. But it is obvious from the context of those observations that the Germans regarded them as erroneous, and even as a hindrance to the German cause.
Furthermore, as the war started to go badly for Germany, all talk of "Untermenschen" was dropped, and the German Government attempted to recruit the Eastern European peoples for the "anti-Bolshevik crusade", with a limited but nevertheless appreciable success in some cases.
I too have read the book by Piotrowski, and regarded it as balanced, although written from an entirely polonocentric point of view. It is by no means pro-German, hence when it does refer to the Polish population fleeing to German bases for refuge, and to the fact that in some cases the Germans gave the Poles arms to defend themselves, that must be accepted as true. Obviously Piotrowski would not have exaggerated help provided by the German authorities.
And it needs to be realised that the armed Ukrainians in German uniforms were former auxiliary policemen who had deserted en masse and joined the UPA. They were not acting under German command.
As to my references to Polish chauvinism. I regard constant complaining about the wrongs inflicted on the Poles by Germans, Ukrainians and whoever else, without recognising how actions by Poles when in power contributed to the atmosphere in which those wrongs could occur, as motivated by Polish chauvinism. Stereoptyping of Ukrainians as a criminal people, which is explicit in the contributions of Somosierra for example, is also motivated by Polish chauvinism, in my opinion.
In summary, I believe that my statement that the various peoples of Eastern Europe were both perpetrators and sufferers of persecution, at different times and different places, was quite accurate, and fair to all the groups concerned.
The notion that the German Government intended to exterminate all "Untermenschen", starting with the Jews is historically false. The Jews of Eastern Europe are the only group that can be said to have been exterminated, and there is no evidence of a German intention to exterminate any other ethnic group (as opposed to eliminating particular anti-German individuals).Lastly, your statement: “Piotrowski also shows that the Germans were unable to stop the UPA because they dide not have the numbers” is misleading. It is clear from Piotrowski’s account that there was little interest in doing so. Remember, the ultimate objective of the German invader was first the elimination of the Jews, and then all other ‘untermensch’ – which included the Poles as a prime target. Why hinder the progress?
In fact, some German noted that the anti-Jewish measures had spread a fear among Poles that the same measures would later be applied to them. But it is obvious from the context of those observations that the Germans regarded them as erroneous, and even as a hindrance to the German cause.
Furthermore, as the war started to go badly for Germany, all talk of "Untermenschen" was dropped, and the German Government attempted to recruit the Eastern European peoples for the "anti-Bolshevik crusade", with a limited but nevertheless appreciable success in some cases.
I too have read the book by Piotrowski, and regarded it as balanced, although written from an entirely polonocentric point of view. It is by no means pro-German, hence when it does refer to the Polish population fleeing to German bases for refuge, and to the fact that in some cases the Germans gave the Poles arms to defend themselves, that must be accepted as true. Obviously Piotrowski would not have exaggerated help provided by the German authorities.
And it needs to be realised that the armed Ukrainians in German uniforms were former auxiliary policemen who had deserted en masse and joined the UPA. They were not acting under German command.
As to my references to Polish chauvinism. I regard constant complaining about the wrongs inflicted on the Poles by Germans, Ukrainians and whoever else, without recognising how actions by Poles when in power contributed to the atmosphere in which those wrongs could occur, as motivated by Polish chauvinism. Stereoptyping of Ukrainians as a criminal people, which is explicit in the contributions of Somosierra for example, is also motivated by Polish chauvinism, in my opinion.
In summary, I believe that my statement that the various peoples of Eastern Europe were both perpetrators and sufferers of persecution, at different times and different places, was quite accurate, and fair to all the groups concerned.
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michael mills
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Benoit Douville wrote:
In fact, the Poles collectively reaped enormous benefits from the elimination of the Jews as a socio-economic caste monopolising a particular niche in Polish society. With the Jews gone, Poles could leave their sombre peasant existence and move into the towns to occupy the space left free, living in the Jews' former houses, serving the Jews' former customers, moving into the professions.
I cannot believe that. The Jewish nation suffered far more than the Polish.Michael Mills have to recognized that the Poles is the nation who suffered the most during World War II.
In fact, the Poles collectively reaped enormous benefits from the elimination of the Jews as a socio-economic caste monopolising a particular niche in Polish society. With the Jews gone, Poles could leave their sombre peasant existence and move into the towns to occupy the space left free, living in the Jews' former houses, serving the Jews' former customers, moving into the professions.
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Somosierra
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Mr. Aborigine,michael mills wrote:Benoit Douville wrote:
I cannot believe that. The Jewish nation suffered far more than the Polish.Michael Mills have to recognized that the Poles is the nation who suffered the most during World War II.
In fact, the Poles collectively reaped enormous benefits from the elimination of the Jews as a socio-economic caste monopolising a particular niche in Polish society. With the Jews gone, Poles could leave their sombre peasant existence and move into the towns to occupy the space left free, living in the Jews' former houses, serving the Jews' former customers, moving into the professions.
We have here the topic on Wolyn/Volhynia in World War II, so write only on the topic or just do not write at all.
And stop your propaganda of hate.
Assuming there is such a thing as a "Jewish nation", that is. As opposed to Polish, Soviet, Hungarian, German etc. citizens of Jewish faith or ethnicity.michael mills wrote:Benoit Douville wrote:
I cannot believe that. The Jewish nation suffered far more than the Polish.Michael Mills have to recognized that the Poles is the nation who suffered the most during World War II.
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David Thompson
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Both Marcus and I have had to warn posters on this thread about avoiding hostile and/or insulting personal remarks. I don't plan to repeat myself again on this thread. Direct your anger against the argument and not the person.
This is an important topic and it would be a shame to close the thread because posters lacked the self-discipline to properly compose a response.
This is an important topic and it would be a shame to close the thread because posters lacked the self-discipline to properly compose a response.
No doubt that Jews and Poles suffered enormously at Nazi hands.I cannot believe that. The Jewish nation suffered far more than the Polish
But how can we forget that the most numerous victims of Nazism were millions and millions of Russians ?
So if to take the absolute numbers then Russians suffered the most.
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Somosierra
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As a slightly off topic remark, if you take the Jews as all Jews including Sephardic Jews, I think you would have to take all Slavs together to be a fair comparison.witness wrote:No doubt that Jews and Poles suffered enormously at Nazi hands.I cannot believe that. The Jewish nation suffered far more than the Polish
But how can we forget that the most numerous victims of Nazism were millions and millions of Russians ?
So if to take the absolute numbers then Russians suffered the most.