Treblinka Perpetrators

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Eddy Marz
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Re: Treblinka Perpetrators

Post by Eddy Marz » 19 Jun 2013 23:08

Hi, Hecht;
This what I have for Wirth :

- Schutzpolizei in 1910 : Schutzmann der Schutzpolizei, Kriminalpolizei.

WW I :
Corporal in Reserve Infantry Regiment 246 at Ulm. Wirth fights on western front ( Flanders, Somme, Champagne). Wounded (forearm), he joins Military Reserve Infantry Military Police 119, guarding a munitions depot in Stuttgart.

- Promotions : Sergeant 1915, NCO 1917.

- Decorations : Iron cross 1st & 2nd Class, Gold Cross, Front Medal, Black medal; casualty medal, Military service medal.

Police Service II :
Stellvertetender Kriminalwachtmeister at Dienstelle 11 in Stuttgart :

• 1920 : Kriminalinspektor
• 1923 : Kriminalkommissar puis Kriminaloberkommissar
• 1932 : Kriminalinspektor
• 1938 : Chief of Kommissariat 5

Chief or Secretary General of Police organisations :

• Reichsverband der Kriminal Beamte Deutschland 1921-1933
• Landwart des Kameradschaftsbund Deutscher Polizei Beamte 1933-1939
• Landwart des Landesbund Wurrtemberg
• Stellvertretender Gausachsarbeiter des Amtes fur Beamte der Fachschaft 9 Polizei
• Hauptvertrauenensmann des Amtes fur Beamte Kreis Stuttgart

Member of political organisations :

• NSDAP 1921-1925 – 1st nazi cell out of Bavaria
• DVNP 1925
• NSDAP 1931-1944
• SA 1933-1938 – Sturmführer and member of SA-Sturm 119 staff in Stuttgart
• Orstgruppenleiter des Kameradschaftsbundes der Ortsgruppe Stuttgart
• Vertrauensmann fur die Kreisleitung des NSDAP Stuttgart

SS & SD Service :

• SD – SD Hauptstelle Stuttgart 1.12. 1937
• SS – Untersturmführer 10-8-1939 promoted Obersturmführer-SS 1.10.1939
• Chief of Disciplinary Police Court 28.2.1939
• Secret Mission/Gestapo ; Vienna 14.3.1939
• Secret Mission/attached to Prague SD & SIPO staff
• RSHA Berlin 27.9.1939

T4

• Brandenburg, 10.1.1940 to 3.2.1940
• Grafeneck : Chief du Sonderstandesamt und Sicherheits 4.2.1940 – Mai 1940
• Hartheim : Chief of Sonderstandesamt und Sicherheits May 1940-27 June 1940
• Police exam at Fuhrungsschule der SIPO und SD in Berlin. Promoted Krimminalkommissar.
• Lauterungsinspektor for T4 centers for the whole Reich.
• December 1941 : Mission - maybe to Lublin and perhaps to Chelmno.

Aktion Reinhard :

• Kommandant of Belzec 1.1.1942 – 31.8.1942
• Inspektor der SS–Sonderkommando Aktion Reinhard – 1.8.1942
• Reorganises Treblinka - August September 1942
• Establishes SS-Sonderkommando Aktion Reinhard Inspectorate on disused Lublin airfield - December 1942
• Promotion SS-Sturmbannführer 20 January 1943

OZAK & Einzats R – Italy :

• Chief of SS und Polizei Sonderkommando Einsatz R/San Sabba, Trieste - September 1943
• Aktion Erntefest – 3 November 1943

Eddy

little grey rabbit
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Re: Treblinka Perpetrators

Post by little grey rabbit » 20 Jun 2013 01:59

• Chief of SS und Polizei Sonderkommando Einsatz R/San Sabba, Trieste - September 1943
• Aktion Erntefest – 3 November 1943
How good is the evidence that Wirth returned from Trieste to take command of Aktion Erntefest.

I have never considered this question before. Googling brings this
http://www.jewishgen.org/yizkor/belzec1/bel110.html

Which appears this suggest this is all based on post war interrogations of Globocnik's successor Sporrenberg. Lets face it, information from postwar interrogations is not always brilliant and Sporrenberg has a motivation to shift responsibility.

The only documented meeting doesn't mention Globo or Wirth
On October 19th, because of the deteriorating military situation in the East, General-Governor Dr. Hans Frank convened a special security conference in Kraków. Attending the conference was SS-Oberführer Bierkamp, Chief of the Security Service (SD/BdS) who had replaced the now disgraced Dr. Schöngarth (BdS), SS-Obergruppenführer F.W. Krüger (HSSPF) and Major-General Hans Grünwald (Schutzpolizei), and SSPF Sporrenberg , who had replaced Globocnik.
Of course, the recall of Wirth may be superbly documented. I raise the question to find this out.

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Eddy Marz
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Re: Treblinka Perpetrators

Post by Eddy Marz » 20 Jun 2013 11:03

little grey rabbit wrote:
• Chief of SS und Polizei Sonderkommando Einsatz R/San Sabba, Trieste - September 1943
• Aktion Erntefest – 3 November 1943
How good is the evidence that Wirth returned from Trieste to take command of Aktion Erntefest.

I have never considered this question before. Googling brings this
http://www.jewishgen.org/yizkor/belzec1/bel110.html

Which appears this suggest this is all based on post war interrogations of Globocnik's successor Sporrenberg. Lets face it, information from postwar interrogations is not always brilliant and Sporrenberg has a motivation to shift responsibility.

The only documented meeting doesn't mention Globo or Wirth
On October 19th, because of the deteriorating military situation in the East, General-Governor Dr. Hans Frank convened a special security conference in Kraków. Attending the conference was SS-Oberführer Bierkamp, Chief of the Security Service (SD/BdS) who had replaced the now disgraced Dr. Schöngarth (BdS), SS-Obergruppenführer F.W. Krüger (HSSPF) and Major-General Hans Grünwald (Schutzpolizei), and SSPF Sporrenberg , who had replaced Globocnik.
Of course, the recall of Wirth may be superbly documented. I raise the question to find this out.
Hi Little Grey Rabbit;
Of course, you're entirely correct; evidence of Wirth's presence for Erntefest is scarce (Tregenza 'unpublished report' and a couple of others)... This may be due to the supposition that he arrived only 48h prior to the operation. However, Sporrenberg's testimony as to his row with Wirth about orders and the subsequent telegram he got from RFSS sounds quite possible to me as well as in line with what we know of Wirth's character. For sure, Sporrenberg would have been too glad to shift responsibility onto Wirth, as did all Aktion Reinhard defendants. But there is also a definite truth about Wirth's direct responsibility in a lot of gruesome killing, and Erntefest is, after all, also a closing operation for Aktion Reinhard. Frankly, I don't know. Will new evidence ever show up ?

Regards
Eddy

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Hecht
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Re: Treblinka Perpetrators

Post by Hecht » 20 Jun 2013 11:44

Thanks Eddy,

But I'm still confused.
How could he be listed as "Polizei-Major" rank during the war if he was a KriPo member? KriPo had different ranks; and more, how could he wear the OrPo uniform during the war if he was a KriPo man?

As far as I know OrPo and KriPo are two totally separated branches and I'm not aware of men with the double membership for the both of them?
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Eddy Marz
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Re: Treblinka Perpetrators

Post by Eddy Marz » 20 Jun 2013 12:09

Hello Hecht;
Don't know what to say really; as far as I know, Kripo members were considered full members of the Allgemeine-SS but could also hold corresponding Orpo rank. Most Kripo detectives referred to themselves by police investigator titles such as Kriminalrat, instead of SS or Orpo rank.

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Hecht
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Re: Treblinka Perpetrators

Post by Hecht » 20 Jun 2013 12:54

Eddy Marz wrote:Hello Hecht;
Don't know what to say really; as far as I know, Kripo members were considered full members of the Allgemeine-SS but could also hold corresponding Orpo rank. Most Kripo detectives referred to themselves by police investigator titles such as Kriminalrat, instead of SS or Orpo rank.
Hello Eddy,

Thanks for the reply.

I may be wrong, but SiPo members weren't considered members of the Allgemeine-SS: if I remind correctly, while most of the SD members were SS members too, being it the SS secret service so a party entity, SiPo was formed up by former Weimar policemen, and most of them weren't SS members or even Party affiliates, being them a State - and not a Party - entity.
This is why Himmler tried to melt togheter up SD and SiPo, just in order to attract more SiPo members, often considered very experienced policemen, into the SS: this is why we have dual rank for SiPo (Kriminal-* and - just comparative but not effective? - SS-rank) but just SS rank for the SD.
Regarding the OrPo rank, I know WSS high officiers would also hold the OrPo one, but I wasn't aware also Allgemeine-SS members would actually hold it, since often SS members that joined WSS, would have two different ranks, one for the WSS and one for the ASS, and they wouldn't even match each other.
This is a bit confusing, I must confess.

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Ponury
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Re: Treblinka Perpetrators

Post by Ponury » 20 Jun 2013 13:56

It's nothing. Wirth committed unimaginable crimes. A lot of it is in the memories of Stangl. Particularly shocking is the portion of these Stangl visited Wirth at Belzec. Just Wirth was the mass graves because so much a charged body to the grave on a hill that under the influence of gas began to swell and literally pour out of the tombs, sinking down the hill. Brrr .... besides, Stangl Wirth taught to treat Jews as "cargo" and not as people. Nice creature. Maximum criminal!

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Re: Treblinka Perpetrators

Post by pjoseph » 17 Oct 2013 23:06

I was at Treblinka recently and outside the gas chamber location there was a set of ghastly photographs, copies that were highly enlarged and posted on boards. The worst one (imo) showed actual excavation operations from the pits. It was taken from Franz's album and speaks volumes for the psychology of these perpetrators. It shows a fully clothed man, standing on a bucket of the excavator, next to the "standing" frozen, body of a female, who is in rigor mortis, completely nude, and who must have been quite beautiful. The man appears to be holding the body in place to prevent it from falling out. The actual enlarged image had the body of the woman somewhat blurred out in the poster, I think intentionally, because the whole image was too ghastly and guaranteed to traumatize any sane person (including me) even when blurred.

It seems that Franz is trying to make some kind of a "joke" from within the context of his warped world view by capturing this bizarre juxtaposing of this live inmate with his arm reaching out and holding the standing dead woman, both in the bucket of the excavator. The main message I get was that to Franz, this was an occasion for "humor." In short, for him and the other perpetrators, it was really not a problem to kill thousands upon thousands. They seem to have not the slightest twinge of conscience, but to have really thought it had its "lighter moments" and that these were the "golden days."

It speaks volumes of the plasticity of the human mind. I don't buy the stories that they needed alcohol to douse their conscience. Maybe some did, but not all. And even then, who says alcohol "douses" the conscience? If anything it allows ones true feelings to come through--in fact I think at Auschwitz, it was used to "expose" true feelings of the newly arrived SS and then in that state, be molded into dedicated killers. Not sure, just my hypothesis.

history1
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Re: Treblinka Perpetrators

Post by history1 » 18 Oct 2013 10:23

pjoseph wrote:[...] It shows a fully clothed man, standing on a bucket of the excavator, next to the "standing" frozen, body of a female, who is in rigor mortis, completely nude, and who must have been quite beautiful. The man appears to be holding the body in place to prevent it from falling out. [...]
Not that I would appreciate to see this photo but keep in mind that rigor mortis does not last forever.
After 2-3 days at room temperature there is no rigor mortis present. What you, most likely, are talking about is the pose which this poor woman had when getting burried preserved due to weather/earth situation, but not rigor mortis.

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Eddy Marz
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Re: Treblinka Perpetrators

Post by Eddy Marz » 18 Oct 2013 10:26

Ponury wrote:It's nothing. Wirth committed unimaginable crimes. A lot of it is in the memories of Stangl. Particularly shocking is the portion of these Stangl visited Wirth at Belzec. Just Wirth was the mass graves because so much a charged body to the grave on a hill that under the influence of gas began to swell and literally pour out of the tombs, sinking down the hill. Brrr .... besides, Stangl Wirth taught to treat Jews as "cargo" and not as people. Nice creature. Maximum criminal!
Not to mention his criminal activity and frequent violence during T4 (well documented in M. Tregenza's book on the subject), such as killing typhus infected female patients by gunshot to prevent an epidemic; his verbal and often physical violence towards his own staff; plus all the despicable acts committed in the AR camps and at San Sabba witnessed by AR & OZAK staff members other than Stangl.

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Re: Treblinka Perpetrators

Post by Paul Lantos » 23 Oct 2013 03:18

little grey rabbit wrote:How good is the evidence that Wirth returned from Trieste to take command of Aktion Erntefest.
I've never read anywhere that Wirth was involved in Erntefest, and I doubt it. Arad has an entire chapter about Erntefest in his book, and neither that nor other books I've read mention it. He had plenty of other responsibilities in Trieste at the time.

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Hecht
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Re: Treblinka Perpetrators

Post by Hecht » 23 Oct 2013 11:20

Hecht wrote:Thanks Eddy,

But I'm still confused.
How could he be listed as "Polizei-Major" rank during the war if he was a KriPo member? KriPo had different ranks; and more, how could he wear the OrPo uniform during the war if he was a KriPo man?

As far as I know OrPo and KriPo are two totally separated branches and I'm not aware of men with the double membership for the both of them?
I wonder why in the hell Reichleitner and Hering are listed as ASS but no way I could find theirs SS number....

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Eddy Marz
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Re: Treblinka Perpetrators

Post by Eddy Marz » 23 Oct 2013 19:10

Hecht wrote:I wonder why in the hell Reichleitner and Hering are listed as ASS but no way I could find theirs SS number....
Hering was not a member of the SS (I mean he never enlisted and therefore had no number), but an ex Stuttgart cop (where he met Wirth), and wearing an SS uniform as most KRIPO or ORPO men employed in AR

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Hecht
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Re: Treblinka Perpetrators

Post by Hecht » 24 Oct 2013 12:03

Eddy Marz wrote:
Hecht wrote:I wonder why in the hell Reichleitner and Hering are listed as ASS but no way I could find theirs SS number....
Hering was not a member of the SS (I mean he never enlisted and therefore had no number), but an ex Stuttgart cop (where he met Wirth), and wearing an SS uniform as most KRIPO or ORPO men employed in AR
Thanks Eddy.

So why put it under the Allgemeine-SS branch on the list then?
Make absolutely no sense to my eyes.
What about Reichsleitner?

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Eddy Marz
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Re: Treblinka Perpetrators

Post by Eddy Marz » 24 Oct 2013 12:20

Hecht wrote:What about Reichsleitner?
Reichsleitner joined the SS in 1937 (number 357,065); he started as Kriminalsekretär in the Gestapo in Linz. Then T4 at Hartheim, and then Aktion Reinhard.

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