Treblinka Perpetrators

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carman
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Re: Treblinka Perpetrators

Post by carman » 02 Jul 2011 14:19

any way,,very interesting discussion on both sides,, I for the last six months have been facinated and have been learning as much as I can about Willi Mentz,,can any one steer me in the right direction as to where I can learn more info?

trespasser07
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Re: Treblinka Perpetrators

Post by trespasser07 » 04 Jul 2011 13:45

"We believe in what we do!" - written in Friedrich Rainer's Guestbook by Odilo Globocnik in April 1943.

trespasser07
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Re: Treblinka Perpetrators

Post by trespasser07 » 04 Jul 2011 14:10

"We believe in what we do!" - written in Friedrich Rainer's Guestbook by Odilo Globocnik in April 1943.

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Eddy Marz
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Re: Treblinka Perpetrators

Post by Eddy Marz » 04 Jul 2011 15:51

trespasser07 wrote:Is this Franz?

http://www.deathcamps.org/treblinka/pic/bigp05.jpg
Nope, it's Pinnemann, a Volkdeutscher watchman.

carman
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Re: Treblinka Perpetrators

Post by carman » 04 Jul 2011 15:54

no, tresspasser07 I looked up the pictures you posted and it says it was a wachman,;a guard,by the name of Pinneman if you look at the set of pictures below that one on the ARC site he is in a group photo at August Hengst's place,,Pinneman is the one in the black uniform. I hope this helps,thanks for the links,,Do you have any ideas on Mentz or are you thristng for more knowledge like me :D ?

carman
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Re: Treblinka Perpetrators

Post by carman » 04 Jul 2011 16:04

Hello Eddy ! could you clarify volksdeutscher? I think its an ethnic German but not sure,,also weren't volksdeutchers generally crueler as if they had something to prove? Also I think Willi was a volkdeutscher from the borders of poland,,I've learned a quite a bit about Willi Mentz but have hit a brickwall,,,need some more direction.Thanks!

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Hecht
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Re: Treblinka Perpetrators

Post by Hecht » 05 Jul 2011 10:28

carman wrote:Hello Eddy ! could you clarify volksdeutscher? I think its an ethnic German but not sure,,also weren't volksdeutchers generally crueler as if they had something to prove? Also I think Willi was a volkdeutscher from the borders of poland,,I've learned a quite a bit about Willi Mentz but have hit a brickwall,,,need some more direction.Thanks!
A Volksdeutscher was an ethnic German living outside the Reich's borders and holding a different citizenship.
Most of them settled during 1600\1800 in the East such as Ukraine, Russland, Galizien, and in the South such as the old Austro-Hungary provinces like North-Italy, Slowenien, Kroatien, Bosnien, Serbien, Banat, Siebenburgen\Transilvania, Bessarabia and many others places around the world (Argentina, Spanien, Chile, USA, South-Afrika, etc.etc.).
During WWII Hitler wanted all Volksdeutscher to be back to Germany as German National and Reich's Citizens, so, step by step, while occupying the countries in which such people settled centuries back, most of them were enlisted in the WSS (since they couldn't join the Wehrmacht, not holding the Reich's Citizenship yet) and started to be classified following the Deutschen Volksliste rules: some of them, the Volkliste I and II, were considered as 100% realiable Volksdeutschen and allowed to stay in place or to move to new Reich's annexed provinces to strenghten the "Germanification" there, becoming Reichedeutschen then since they were usually granted German Nationality and Reich's Citizenship (deutsche Staatsangehörigkeit and Reichsbürger) and they could join the SS, then there were the ones that were considered pretty good Volksdeutschen and that were also given Nationality and Citizenship, but they weren't allowed in the SS (Volksliste II) : then we had the Volksdeutschen that had lost part of their "blood" and traditions (III), since they "mixed" with the locals, they were given the Staatsangehörige auf Widerruf and they would have been considered Reichsdeutschen after 10 years of valuation only: they were to be sent inside the Reich's old borders to be "germanized" again (Umsiedler - Nur für das Altreich gültig). Same thing for the IV class, Volksdeutscher or "mixed" local people that were considered as enemies of Germany, they were considered not as Reichsdeutschen but as Schutzangehörige.

Today this is no more and pretty hard to understand for the new generation, since almost anybody getting any citizenship is actually considered also as a national of such nation that supplied the citizenship.

Standing to Suchomel, the worst Wachmaenner were Lituanen and Ukrainer, that were also named "Dogs of Hell".
Volksdeutscher were often forced to join such units, and they were not always that happy to, as far as I know: you also need to check carefully the situation of each one, since you could mistake some of them for an ethnic Ukrainer while most of them had their proper german names and surnames spelled in Slavic style, since theirs families settled in the far East many centuries back.

carman
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Re: Treblinka Perpetrators

Post by carman » 05 Jul 2011 15:14

Thanks Hecht much appreciated

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Re: Treblinka Perpetrators

Post by trespasser07 » 05 Jul 2011 15:43

Suchomel did agree in the dcumentary SHOAH that the Lithuanians on the wagon roofs were the worst. the "blood hounds". Sounds terrifying.
"We believe in what we do!" - written in Friedrich Rainer's Guestbook by Odilo Globocnik in April 1943.

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Hecht
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Re: Treblinka Perpetrators

Post by Hecht » 05 Jul 2011 17:10

trespasser07 wrote:Suchomel did agree in the dcumentary SHOAH that the Lithuanians on the wagon roofs were the worst. the "blood hounds". Sounds terrifying.
I've catch it as "Hell hounds", were I wrong?
Pretty creepy, I give you that anyway.

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Hecht
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Re: Treblinka Perpetrators

Post by Hecht » 05 Jul 2011 17:12

carman wrote:Thanks Hecht much appreciated
you are most welcome.

steve248
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Re: Treblinka Perpetrators

Post by steve248 » 15 Jul 2011 13:48

We seem to have come along way from the original topic.

It may be a surprise but in March 1948, the UN War Crimes Commission issued another list of wanted war criminals, witnesses and material suspects. This is List No. 78. Among its pages are 133 persons listed by name associated with Belzec, Sobibor and Treblinka. The information was very possibly supplied by the Polish authorities as the persons listed are wanted by Poland.

They listed 11 names connected to Belzec (1941-mid 1943), 65 names connected to Sobibor (May 1942-Nov 1943), and 57 names connected to Treblinka (June 1942-Nov 1943). Some of the usual culprits are noted: Franz, Gomerski, Dolps; but Christian Wirth is not.

British researchers can find this at UK National Archives, Kew, FO 371/77023. No doubt it can be found at US NARA.

I see information from one of my articles was quoted in an earlier post on this topic, decodes from June 1942, but unattributed! Such is life!

michael mills
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Re: Treblinka Perpetrators

Post by michael mills » 16 Jul 2011 02:06

I see information from one of my articles was quoted in an earlier post on this topic, decodes from June 1942, but unattributed! Such is life!
How can we attribute your articles if we do not know who you are?

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bluespaceoddity
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Re: Treblinka Perpetrators

Post by bluespaceoddity » 16 Jul 2011 05:35

michael mills wrote:
I see information from one of my articles was quoted in an earlier post on this topic, decodes from June 1942, but unattributed! Such is life!
How can we attribute your articles if we do not know who you are?
By attributing to the original author of the original source any material not your own when incorporating such material in a forum message, obviously.

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Eddy Marz
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Re: Treblinka Perpetrators

Post by Eddy Marz » 16 Jul 2011 06:44

Hello Steve248;
I suppose you're referring to my earlier quote concerning 'A radio message between SS-Gruppenführer Grawitz and Globocnik intercepted by the British secret service on 13th June 1942' referenced as : Public Record Office. Kew, UK: HW 16/19 /ZIP/GPDD 124, message 36/37, transmitted on 13 June 1942.

This ref has been in my (stacks of) notes for sometime and, until now, I was sure I got it either from :

- O’Neil, Robin. Belzec : Prototype for the Final Solution ; Hitler's answer to the Jewish Question

or

- Poprzeczny, Joseph. Odilo Globocnik ; Hitler’s man in the East

but I'm obviously mistaken. In any case, my intention was only to argue the case and not rob anyone of their property; had I known, I would have mentioned the precise source. You have my sincere apologies.

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