Treblinka Perpetrators

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trespasser07
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Re: Treblinka Perpetrators

Post by trespasser07 » 23 Jun 2011 16:50

Eddy your knowledge as ever is brilliant. Have you ever thought of publishing a book yourself?
"We believe in what we do!" - written in Friedrich Rainer's Guestbook by Odilo Globocnik in April 1943.

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Eddy Marz
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Re: Treblinka Perpetrators

Post by Eddy Marz » 23 Jun 2011 17:33

I'm working on a Gerstein bio. Lengthy and difficult. I worked 10 years alongside Pierre Joffroy (french journalist), also author of a Gerstein bio ('A Spy for God'), who interviewed Gerstein's wife over a 5 year span, as well as many of his Waffen-SS friends and/or work colleagues at the Hygiene Institute, and Baron Göran Von Otter. Joffroy's book came out in the 60's, about a year after Saul Friedlander's effort : 'Kurt Gerstein, the ambiguity of Good'. Alot of things have come to light since then; so...

trespasser07
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Re: Treblinka Perpetrators

Post by trespasser07 » 23 Jun 2011 21:07

Good man!!! What was his actual fate was he killed in France or have I got that wrong? I will keep an eye out for the book for sure!
"We believe in what we do!" - written in Friedrich Rainer's Guestbook by Odilo Globocnik in April 1943.

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Hecht
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Re: Treblinka Perpetrators

Post by Hecht » 23 Jun 2011 21:24

Eddy Marz wrote: After Treblinka he was posted to Trieste, and after a short time to Udine. In the autumn of 1944 from Udine, to Upper Italy attached to a demolition unit.
BTW, what's a demolition unit Eddy?

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Eddy Marz
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Re: Treblinka Perpetrators

Post by Eddy Marz » 24 Jun 2011 06:40

Hi Trespasser;
No, Gerstein committed suicide in the parisian military prison of the Cherche-Midi, after having been charged with complicity in mass murder; some have tried to suggest that he was liquidated by captive SS members, but this theory doesn't stand up to close scrutiny.

Hi Hecht;
A demolition unit would simply be a unit in charge of either dismantling criminal SS installations, or just simply installations and/or facilities that, for a number of reasons, were not to be abandoned for the Allies to discover and/or profit from.

trespasser07
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Re: Treblinka Perpetrators

Post by trespasser07 » 24 Jun 2011 13:59

Gerstein seems an interesting character with much insight into the extermination process did he meet with Wirth at Belzec to observe the process?
"We believe in what we do!" - written in Friedrich Rainer's Guestbook by Odilo Globocnik in April 1943.

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Eddy Marz
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Re: Treblinka Perpetrators

Post by Eddy Marz » 24 Jun 2011 15:22

Yes, Gerstein met both Globocnik & Wirth - witnessed a whole gassing operation, and had the Zyklon buried because Wirth didn't want it (and nor did he, albeit not for the same reasons).

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Re: Treblinka Perpetrators

Post by trespasser07 » 24 Jun 2011 15:36

Why is it that Wirth favoured Carbon Monxide over Zykon B as I have read the latter was quicker and more effective?
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Eddy Marz
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Re: Treblinka Perpetrators

Post by Eddy Marz » 24 Jun 2011 16:09

Wirth's reasons are twofold :

1. Changing the set up (which had already been working for months with C02) to accomodate Zyklon B would mean lengthy transformation work, working out and adopting drastic security measures, training personnel, and delay transportations and killing for weeks.

2. Wirth was proud of his method, just like a factory manager proud of an economical and efficient technique. Besides, C02 gassing worked perfectly, why change it with a costly product ? Had his method been changed, Wirth would have probably interpreted it as dissatisfaction from Berlin regarding his way of conducting the mission. Because of his intimate (and largely undocumented) links with the KdF, Wirth had no opposition from anyone concerning killing actions (not even from the local HSSPF); it seems he could bypass his theoretical superior, SSPF Globocnik. I believe the Gerstein mission was organized by 4BIV of the RSHA because of a previous demand by Globocnik to set up a Hygiene Institute department in Lublin, without consulting Wirth.

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Re: Treblinka Perpetrators

Post by trespasser07 » 24 Jun 2011 16:15

Fair points Eddy I forget that the staff had already been used to this method of gassing during the T4 program. Do you believe that had the german people known of these camps that they would have protested against it in the way they did for the T4?

I hope extensive biographies of Wirth and Kurt Franz appear at some stage Eddy, looking forward to yours on Gerstein.
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Eddy Marz
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Re: Treblinka Perpetrators

Post by Eddy Marz » 24 Jun 2011 16:22

trespasser07 wrote:Do you believe that had the german people known of these camps that they would have protested against it in the way they did for the T4?
Impossible to answer such a question; it will always remain subjective. But I guess the fact that Aktion Reinhard was conceived and conducted in secrecy proves that the KdF and the SS thought it wiser than to do it openly.
trespasser07 wrote:I hope extensive biographies of Wirth and Kurt Franz appear at some stage Eddy, looking forward to yours on Gerstein.
One day, maybe... :wink:

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Re: Treblinka Perpetrators

Post by trespasser07 » 24 Jun 2011 16:26

I now have Alexander Donat's Treblinka book with an extract from the Treblinka Trial but does anyone know where it can be viewed as a whole. I have a source but it is in German.
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Hecht
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Re: Treblinka Perpetrators

Post by Hecht » 24 Jun 2011 19:47

Standing to Pier Arrigo Carnier, SS-Stuba Ernst Lerch claimed that Berlin ordered him to the place where Wirth was killed shortly later.
Wirth was buried on place by Ukrainians and was moved to Triest-Opicina just later.
Lerch claimed that while on place to investigate Wirth's death, he was targeted several times by bullets shot by unknown persons hidden in the woods, and he supported that was not partisans fire but some kind of ambush.

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Eddy Marz
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Re: Treblinka Perpetrators

Post by Eddy Marz » 25 Jun 2011 11:14

Hecht wrote: he supported that was not partisans fire but some kind of ambush.
Meaning what ? SS men ? Franz Stangl had also told Gitta Sereny that his comrades, discussing Wirth's death, had come to the conclusion that he had been killed by his own men - which, as we now know, is untrue.

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Re: Treblinka Perpetrators

Post by little grey rabbit » 25 Jun 2011 12:25

Eddy Marz wrote:Wirth's reasons are twofold :

1. Changing the set up (which had already been working for months with C02) to accomodate Zyklon B would mean lengthy transformation work, working out and adopting drastic security measures, training personnel, and delay transportations and killing for weeks.

2. Wirth was proud of his method, just like a factory manager proud of an economical and efficient technique. Besides, C02 gassing worked perfectly, why change it with a costly product ? Had his method been changed, Wirth would have probably interpreted it as dissatisfaction from Berlin regarding his way of conducting the mission. Because of his intimate (and largely undocumented) links with the KdF, Wirth had no opposition from anyone concerning killing actions (not even from the local HSSPF); it seems he could bypass his theoretical superior, SSPF Globocnik. I believe the Gerstein mission was organized by 4BIV of the RSHA because of a previous demand by Globocnik to set up a Hygiene Institute department in Lublin, without consulting Wirth.
I believe the purposes of this forum was that it be a sourced discussion. What on earth is your source that Wirth was proud of CO method? Or had any opinion vis a vis Zyklon B?

Obviously the long out-gassing time of Zyklon B pellets probably makes it unsuited for a rapid turn around operation. Did Gerstein ever say that he was aware he was just bringing Zyklon B for experimental purposes?

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