Mistreatment of German women POWs

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Son_of_German_American
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Mistreatment of German women POWs

#1

Post by Son_of_German_American » 24 Apr 2011, 23:27

(Split from Bitch, Bitch, Bitch: German POW Complaints)

"German POWs in the US complained to Swiss authorities that while being taken to their POW camps, they were awakened by porters offering them coffee on the train and this disturbed their rest. That's too damn bad. Others complained at being forced to sit in chairs in the passenger coaches. That was uncomfortable. Given that most German troops in Germany were transported in freight cars, this is a little much. Once at the POW camps, a standard complaint was American white bread which the Germans said was like cake and bad for them. So was starting World War Two you jackasses."
My mother, A German POW, held in an open air prison camp for years after the war, if still alive, would have much to dispute with your simple minded assessment of post war prison camps. Many prisoners held in American camps in the USA were, without doubt, considered paradise to those being held in Germany, France, England, or worse, Russian prisons.

It wasn't just the Russians who carried on wholsale rape and torture of German Prisoners. It wasn't just the Russians who treated German POW's worse than anything allowed in the Geneva Convention. I supposes a small moldy slice of white bread and a half pat of butter a day for five years, with a cup of occasional potato soup, amounting to less than 1000 calories a day, constitutes fair and humane treatment. I suppose my mother being raped by an American Staff Sargent, resulting in the birth of my brother, contitutes wonderful treatment legitimate, and humane treatment? I suppose Eisenhower ordering food to be destroyed that was meant for the prisoners is ok. I suppose that ordering the records of all prisoners destroyed, was ok? Even holocaust victims can still trace their families to the camps through meticulously kept German records. I suppose Eisenhower refusing admittance of the Swiss Red Cross to the POW camps, was ok?

My mother married an American GI after her release, because there was no home for her to return to, since it had been bombed to hell three different times. The German economy was left intentionally in shambles and further destroyed by the Marshall Plan. It wasn't until it appeared that Russia was going to take over Europe with their over 4 million man army, compared to our less than 50,000 men in country, that America began to make serious changes in strategy.

Either way, the POW's in country were treated worse than vermin and millions died after the war at the hand of Americans, or by the direct non intervention or direct refusal to allow Germany to rebuild. It was US policy to make the Germans suffer. OK I get it; they caused their own demise. Once a combatant stops being a combatant, they deserve at a minimum, by law, at least half the occupying military ration. That was 2500 calories for an American Soldier. Now, it is considered inhumane treatment to yell at a POW, heaven forbid you make them lay naked on each other or put a pair of underwear on their head.

My mother lived outside in an open camp. no latrines, no shelter, no baths, no decent clothing, not even a friggin bed. At least American POWs had barracks to live in. That is not asking for anything, but a simple note to let you know that your short sighted opinion leaves much to be desired. My mother was drafted into the army. there was no choice. They confiscated her new car she had purchased, for the war effort. Who was she to stop the NAZI war machine? Sha had a degree in agriculture, they took her and made her work as a RADAR operator. Oh, I am so sorry Mr. NAZI, I already have a job, please come another time or I'll catch you on the filp side. Have a nice day. Is that what you think the average German had in mind when Herr Gestapo politely knocked on their door? When I visited my grandfather in the early sixties, in Karlsruhe, Germany, he had just gotten running water in his apartment. There was just one common bath for the entire building. In the house I lived in, we had but on pot bellied stove for heat, and an outhouse for our latrine facilities. We used a chamber pot inside. That was in 1962, Mannheim, Germany.

That is how far into hell we bombed that country.

My family, ( My American Father's side ) has served this country in every War since the late 1800's, with the latest being killed in Afghanistan. I don't know what you friggin agenda is, but no one makes out in war, except maybe you. The only "Jack-ass", is the one who treats the subject with such disdain and contempt.

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Mistreatment of German women POWs

#2

Post by Son_of_German_American » 25 Apr 2011, 01:37

(Split from Women in combat in the Wehrmacht.)

My mother was a radar operator in the wehrmacht. She was captured and held until 1949. She was raped by Americans and was impregnated in 1949, just before her release from captivity. My older brother is a living testament to that. She spoke very little of her ordeal during those years. A slice of moldy white bread, a half pat butter, occasionally a cup of potato soup, and on a good day a spoon of marmalade, served as her rations during that time. 1944 to 1949. No barrack, no latrine, no fresh clothes, no shelter, all in an open air camp. Wasn't life great? That was an American POW camp, in the American sector, the one you don't often get to hear about. Little is spoken of regarding the conditions in country post war and how difficult it was for anyone to survive; many did not.

Try to find documentation on any of those histories. Eisenhower ordered all the records destroyed. Research; what an exercise in futility. I am not surprised that many refused to speak of their internment, or of the activities they endured. Many women bore the brunt of allied retribution. Some if still alive may even be able to tell the stories no one wants to hear or believe. Most, like my mom, have died off with their stories of shear horror and daily terror, getting buried with them.

I read all the sugar coated stories of POWs who seemed to have the life of Riley and actually fared better than they did Pre-war. In America, no doubt they did well. In Germany, away from main stream scrutiny, not so much. Americans behaved like barbarians. as did the slime bags who raped my mom; fur eine chocolaten, oder eine flash wasser, oder etwas.

Reparations?; My family paid dearly, those who survived, that is. I would not wish on my worst enemy, the treatment we gave to post war POWs in Germany, or worse, Russia. May they all find eternal peace in the salvation of their deaths. The fact my father agreed to marry a very pregnant, recently released, German POW, is a testament to the decency that some Americans, my dad for one, demonstrated to the Germans. That was in spite of the retribution he experienced from his own family for marrying a pregnant german, NAZI, as far as they were concerned, a war bride as they were called back then.

I never met my father's family until he died and two of them came to the reading of the will and left before the funeral. We were shunned by his family for that great misdeed, even denied his inheritance after his parents died. I didn't even know my dad was not my brother's father until he tried to join the ARMY in 1969. He had dual citizenship and his birth certificate had an unknown American listed as his father, and his birthplace as Karlsruhe. One must prove citizenship when joining the military. As late as 1958, he still had a hard time speaking English, he was almost ten.

Growing up, I had to listen to so many Americans calling my mom a NAZI. We didn't get to play in too many of their reindeer games either. We were always stationed at military bases around the world, because my dad made the military his career. Dad used to joke about the shells fired from the railroad gun my mom was assigned to, nearly blowing his platoon to kingdom come,(He used other adjectives to decribe the scene). "As long as you could hear them, you were ok"; he said. He was part of Patton's Third Army, Tenth Armored Division.

My mom was captured in a bunker with other radar operators, many who died when the white phosporous grenades blew the bunker doors open and those who were too close to the door were killed when the allies came in. The rest, like my mom were herded off to a POW camp. After sixty five years, it still amazes me that people can still be so callous regarding life and death and the treatment of human beings. America justified its ill treatment of German POWs by reclassifing them as disarmed enemy combatants. That of course, excused them of being required to follow the Geneva Convention. They were no longer prisoners of war. Imagine that; with the stroke of a pen, POWs are no longer POWs. That sort of reminds me of how we no longer call illegal aliens, illegal aliens, because; they are now classified as undocumented workers.

War is the only diplomacy that completely screws the average citizen, regardless of nationality; without which no country would have hero's or medals to bestow upon them.


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Re: Mistreatment of German women POWs

#3

Post by Larry D. » 25 Apr 2011, 01:57

My mother was a radar operator in the wehrmacht. She was captured and held until 1949. She was raped by Americans and was impregnated in 1949, just before her release from captivity. My older brother is a living testament to that. She spoke very little of her ordeal during those years. A slice of moldy white bread, a half pat butter, occasionally a cup of potato soup, and on a good day a spoon of marmalade, served as her rations during that time. 1944 to 1949. No barrack, no latrine, no fresh clothes, no shelter, all in an open air camp. Wasn't life great? That was an American POW camp, in the American sector, the one you don't often get to hear about. Little is spoken of regarding the conditions in country post war and how difficult it was for anyone to survive; many did not.
Unfounded and unsourced allegations such as this belong in the Holocaust & Twentieth Century War Crimes sub-forum where they can be seen and refuted. There are already several threads there on German POWs in American hands.

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Re: Mistreatment of German women POWs

#4

Post by Annelie » 25 Apr 2011, 13:09

Unfounded and unsourced allegations such as this belong in the Holocaust & Twentieth Century War Crimes sub-forum where they can be seen and refuted. There are already several threads there on German POWs in American hands.
No it doesn't.

This poster is withing the forum guidlines. He is sharing his Mothers experience, the topic is women in
combat! The author of this thread implied that POW's were bitching all the time.

An author is who using the forum to make contraversy perhaps as PR for himself by finding an little
obscure article IF it is even accurate to generate who knows what, is not what I would take seriously.

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Re: Mistreatment of German women POWs

#5

Post by LWD » 25 Apr 2011, 13:21

When complaining about someone else making extreme statements making your own doesn't add much wait to your complaing. Let's take a look.
Son_of_German_American wrote:
"German POWs in the US ..."

My mother, A German POW, held in an open air prison camp for years after the war, if still alive, would have much to dispute with your simple minded assessment of post war prison camps. Many prisoners held in American camps in the USA were, without doubt, considered paradise to those being held in Germany, France, England, or worse, Russian prisons.
But as noted he was referring to "in the US" while you are refering to post war camps in Europe.
It wasn't just the Russians who carried on wholsale rape and torture of German Prisoners.
Source PLS. While such events certainly happened I've seen nothing to indicate that they were "wholesale".
It wasn't just the Russians who treated German POW's worse than anything allowed in the Geneva Convention. I supposes a small moldy slice of white bread and a half pat of butter a day for five years, with a cup of occasional potato soup, amounting to less than 1000 calories a day, constitutes fair and humane treatment.
That was the diet for 5 years? I'd like to see a source on that. Note that a "slice of white bread and half a pat of butter" would probably not even add up to 200 calaries. As a refernce wiki at: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disarmed_Enemy_Forces
states
Most captives of the Americans and the British were released by the end of 1948
Since most (all?) the US camps in Europe date to 45 that brings the "5 years" to questona s well.
I suppose Eisenhower ordering food to be destroyed that was meant for the prisoners is ok.
I suppose that ordering the records of all prisoners destroyed, was ok?
Source PLS.
I suppose Eisenhower refusing admittance of the Swiss Red Cross to the POW camps, was ok?
Source PLS
Either way, the POW's in country were treated worse than vermin and millions died after the war at the hand of Americans, or by the direct non intervention or direct refusal to allow Germany to rebuild.
Millions sounds a bit excessive. Got a source on that one?
It was US policy to make the Germans suffer. OK I get it; they caused their own demise. Once a combatant stops being a combatant, they deserve at a minimum, by law, at least half the occupying military ration. That was 2500 calories for an American Soldier.
That's hardly the case. There was a food shortage in Europe and Germany in particular. It was US policy that prisoners would not get more calaries per day than the local civilians.
I don't know what you friggin agenda is, but no one makes out in war, except maybe you. The only "Jack-ass", is the one who treats the subject with such disdain and contempt.
In that case I suggest you compose your posts a bit more carefully.

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Re: Mistreatment of German women POWs

#6

Post by Larry D. » 25 Apr 2011, 13:54

Oh, O.K., Annelie, sorry because I sure didn't know that. I guess all that has been said here on AHF over the past 10 or 12 years about the treatment of Wehrmacht prisoners by the Americans (shudder!) is fiction. We will now accept that the U.S. had at least some open air internment or POW camps where Wehrmachthelferinnen/Luftwaffenhelferinnen were kept for up to 5 years (1944-49) in all kinds of weather, fed mainly potato soup and bread crusts, and in at least some cases repeatedly raped. Gosh, how come claims like this have not stood up to discussion over on the Holocaust and 20th Century War Crimes sub-forum? How come the eminently respected moderator of that sub-forum, David Thompson, who probably knows more about this subject that any of the AHF membership, has not supported claims of this sort?

I will not dispute that SoGA and others are apparently free to post anything on this web site their little heart's desire as long as they third-person it. But others who come along later and see something like this and are offended by it because they believe it to be untrue, have the equal right to comment on it, denounce it and declare their belief that it should be subjected to scrutiny and treated with skepticism pending proof.

So, based on my own experiences in the U.S. Army that began in 1957 and 6 decades of researching WW II in Europe, plus all that has been said on this subject right here on AHF, the story related by SoGA of his mother's treatment, possibly excluding the rape, is pure B.S. And anyone who believes otherwise needs to research the subject.

L.

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Re: Mistreatment of German women POWs

#7

Post by Annelie » 25 Apr 2011, 14:09

Well Larry, no one said you shouldn't be allow to dispute anything but h_ll give the guy
a chance to share his Mothers experience.

Your old enough to know that rape did happen and it wasn't just the Russians.
People are people no matter where they come from and some Allies were not
all that nice people either.

Annelie

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Re: Mistreatment of German women POWs

#8

Post by Larry D. » 25 Apr 2011, 14:31

Annelie wrote:Well Larry, no one said you shouldn't be allow to dispute anything but h_ll give the guy
a chance to share his Mothers experience.
Your old enough to know that rape did happen and it wasn't just the Russians.
People are people no matter where they come from and some Allies were not
all that nice people either.
Annelie
Agreed, Annelie. I spent 1958-59 in Mannheim and 1963-66 in Ramstein and Baden Soellingen and I am well acquainted with the crimes committed by a very small percentage of the G.I. population serving in the BRD. I also know that it was worse during the first year or two following the end of the war. During my time there, the culprits were arrested and court-martialed with long prison sentences imposed. Rapes did occur, but if the girl or woman came forward justice prevailed.

L.

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Re: Mistreatment of German women POWs

#9

Post by Annelie » 25 Apr 2011, 14:50

Larry,

You also know that of many rapes that did occur many were never reported so justice did not come forth. The women were down beaten and were ashamed. They did what they could and looked towards a future. These women
do not and have not spoken about it even to their families.

Annelie

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Re: Mistreatment of German women POWs

#10

Post by Larry D. » 25 Apr 2011, 15:23

And it is no different today. Every time a rape story appears on the national or local news, the reporter or commentator almost always interjects the statement that statistically speaking some 85% to 90% of rapes go unreported. But it is still immeasurably better than it was 300 years ago and before when cities and towns were given to the army that conquered them for three days of pillaging, rape, torture and slaughter. Today, it's up to the woman to step forward because until she does no one knows about the rape aside from her and the rapist. We all know the procedure and its manifold conflict with due process to the detriment of both the victim and the defendant, so there is no point in going over all that again here.

L.

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Re: Mistreatment of German women POWs

#11

Post by JamesL » 25 Apr 2011, 15:31

SOGA - your mother was a prisoner of the Americans for 5 years? That's odd.

SHAEF issued three disbandment directives in May (1945). Disbandment Directive No. 1 authorized the release of agricultural workers, coal miners, transportation workers, and others in key occupations. No. 2 authorized the discharge of women, and No. 3 of men over fifty years of age. Directive No. 4, put out in early June, released the Belgians, French, and Dutch who had served in the Wehrmacht to their governments.

Source: THE U.S. ARMY IN THE OCCUPATION OF GERMANY 1944-1946
http://www.history.army.mil/books/wwii/ ... h16.htm#b5
page 293
Last edited by JamesL on 25 Apr 2011, 17:33, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Mistreatment of German women POWs

#12

Post by Marcus » 25 Apr 2011, 16:03

The above posts were split off from two other threads where they were dragging the threads away from the original topic and merged into this new thread to give the discussion a chance to develop further in the correct section.

/Marcus

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Re: Mistreatment of German women POWs

#13

Post by David Thompson » 25 Apr 2011, 16:28

It seems to me that Son_of_German_American's post has two different sets of allegations: (1) those involving the treatment of his mother; and (2) more general allegations about the treatment of POWs by American forces.

The allegations in group (1) are anecdotal, so there's not going to be much source material for them. Our intelligent readers can make up their own minds about the anecdote. We know that all armies have criminals in them, and that the western allies definitely had serious problems feeding and housing the 7 million prisoners, several million more displaced persons and refugees, and the civilian population of western Germany. Whether or not women were kept in outdoor camps for years after the war is another issue, which we can evaluate by looking at the available contemporaneous documents.

The allegations in group (2), however, require sources or some sort of documentation to distinguish them from a mere opinion rant. Presumably Son_of_German_American had not been born at the time, or was a very young child, so perhaps he'll tell us where he got this information.

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Re: Mistreatment of German women POWs

#14

Post by JamesL » 25 Apr 2011, 17:32

Allow me to nit-pick my previous entry.

From another US Army source.

Disbandment was accomplished as follows. Members of the Home Guard (Volkssturm) were disbanded at once and allowed to go home. German agricultural workers, coal miners, transportation workers, and similar urgently needed persons, and all German women, were released if they resided in the area in which they were prisoners and if they were not war criminals, security suspects, or members of the security police (Schutzstaffel – SS). On 18 May 1945 authority was given to release all prisoners of war over fifty years of age, under the same conditions. (page 89)

Changes to the rules were made in June and November 1945 so that they were allowed to return to their home regardless of where it was located in Germany, the Soviet Occupied Zone being an exception. (page 90).

THE AMERICAN MILITARY OCCUPATION OF GERMANY 1945 – 1953.
http://www.history.hqusareur.army.mil/A ... c45-53.pdf

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Re: Mistreatment of German women POWs

#15

Post by john h » 25 Apr 2011, 22:36

on this subject i found an intresting site its www.rense.com/general 19/camps.htm

whether you believe it or not is irrevelant but its intresting reading

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