What about this document makes it genuine

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The Black Rabbit of Inlé
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What about this document makes it genuine

Post by The Black Rabbit of Inlé » 19 Jun 2011 16:56

Who was it from, does it resemble other correspondences from their department?

http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.py?camps/buch ... -doc01.gif

Found through here
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.py?camps/buchenwald/images

The Black Rabbit of Inlé
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Re: What about this document makes it genuine

Post by The Black Rabbit of Inlé » 19 Jun 2011 17:01

More details on here, at the bottom
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi/people/ft ... olman.9712

David Thompson
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Re: What about this document makes it genuine

Post by David Thompson » 19 Jun 2011 17:50

The Black Rabbit of Inlé -- You asked:
Who was it from, does it resemble other correspondences from their department?
(1) As German-speaking members can see from the signature block, the order was issued by the SS garrison doctor at Weimar (SS-Standortarzt Weimar), or someone authorized to act for him. The signature block suggests he was a Captain in the SS Reserve (SS-Hauptsturmfuehrer d. R.), who did not want his staff pestered with extracurricular requests for shrunken heads and similar gift items emanating from KL Buchenwald.

As with many doctors' writings, the signature is illegible. If you want to know who was serving as SS garrison doctor at Weimar in May 1942, please post that inquiry in the SS and Polizei section of the forum where the learned members can probably give you a quick answer.

This is not the order itself, but a typewritten memorandum of it. To see if it looked like the others, you'd need the whole collection of the garrison doctor's registry of orders.

(2) As I have already pointed out to you, at http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 4#p1600644:
The purpose of these sections of the forum is to provide a place where historical matters can be intelligently discussed. It is not a research service. [. . .]

If you have a question, please let the readers know what steps you have taken to answer it when you post the inquiry. This will eliminate misunderstandings and give responding posters a better idea of your familiarity with the subject.

http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=53962

siwiec
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Re: What about this document makes it genuine

Post by siwiec » 19 Jun 2011 20:01

Looks quite normal document to me. Most likely it was signed by Waldemar Hoven (signature looks similar and as far as I know he was appointed Standortartz in 1942). You can find other documents signed by Hoven from this book:

http://www.amazon.de/Konzentrationslage ... -1-catcorr

little grey rabbit
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Re: What about this document makes it genuine

Post by little grey rabbit » 20 Jun 2011 01:44

siwiec wrote:Looks quite normal document to me. Most likely it was signed by Waldemar Hoven (signature looks similar and as far as I know he was appointed Standortartz in 1942). You can find other documents signed by Hoven from this book:

http://www.amazon.de/Konzentrationslage ... -1-catcorr
From the German wikipedia on Hoven
Ab Oktober 1939 war Hoven als Hilfssanitätsoffizier und 1940 schließlich als Sanitätsoffizier der Waffen-SS im SS-Lazarett des KZ Buchenwald eingesetzt. Ab Juli 1942 fungierte Hoven, nun SS-Hauptsturmführer, als Standortarzt im KZ Buchenwald und übernahm ab Januar 1943 zusätzlich die stellvertretende Leitung der Abteilung für Fleckfieber- und Virusforschung des Hygiene-Instituts der Waffen-SS in Buchenwald unter Erwin Ding-Schuler
This suggests Hoven was not Standortarzt until July 1942, when IIRC this is dated May 1942. Who was Standortarzt before Hoven?

Was this head supposed to have been made for Koch? That would date it back to September 1941.

siwiec
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Re: What about this document makes it genuine

Post by siwiec » 20 Jun 2011 03:29

little grey rabbit wrote: This suggests Hoven was not Standortarzt until July 1942, when IIRC this is dated May 1942.
Book I mentioned seems to refer to that document at page 277 (note 3/39), and authors tell it was signed by Standortartz Hoven. So probably the editor(s) of wikipedia got it wrong, or he was not yet officially appointed to that position but was already acting chief doctor.

little grey rabbit
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Re: What about this document makes it genuine

Post by little grey rabbit » 25 Jun 2011 12:32

I don't have access to his personnel file, but he did repeatedly state to Nuremberg interrogators he was made Standortarzt in July 1942 and his interrogators repeatedly warned him they had lots of documents regarding him and he needed to tell the truth.

Had he made an error, I think he would have been pulled up.

michael mills
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Re: What about this document makes it genuine

Post by michael mills » 25 Jun 2011 13:49

The context of the order to the Director of Pathology at KL-Buchenwald is this:

The Pathology Department had an ongoing assignment to prepare anatomical specimens from the bodies of deceased prisoners and send them to the SS Medical Academy at Graz, presumably for teaching purposes.

Staff of the Pathology Department involved in the preparation of those anatomical specimens were also making unauthorised use of the bodies from which the specimens were taken in order to produce "souvenirs", such as shrunken heads. It appears that not only SS members of the Pathology Department were involved in such unauthorised practices, but also prisoners employed in that departmewnt.

The order from the Weimar garrison doctor prohibits such unauthorised use of the bodies. It commands the KL-Buchenwald Pathoolgy Department to continue making regular twice-monthly reports on the authorised work it was doing for the Graz SS Medical Academy.

It also appears that the staff of the Pathology Department was interfering with the medical treatment of the prisoners in some way. Perhaps that interference consisted in ensuring that sick prisoners died so that there would be a regular supply of bodies from which to prepare anatomical specimens, and also to prepare their unauthorised "souvenirs".

That interference is also prohibited by the Weimar garrison doctor's order. Presumably there is a connection between the two prohibitions; the garrison doctor wishes to stop members of the Pathology Department from causing unnecessary deaths of prisoners for the purpose of having additional corpses from which to prepare their unauthorised "souvenirs".

siwiec
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Re: What about this document makes it genuine

Post by siwiec » 26 Jun 2011 15:48

little grey rabbit wrote:I don't have access to his personnel file, but he did repeatedly state to Nuremberg interrogators he was made Standortarzt in July 1942 and his interrogators repeatedly warned him they had lots of documents regarding him and he needed to tell the truth.

Had he made an error, I think he would have been pulled up.
You may remember he was interrogated in English so some kind of misunderstanding in terminology is possible, or possibly appointment was made officially only in July. Anyway, document we are discussing is not the only document that mentions Hoven as Standortarzt before July 1942. Tribunal had material which showed Hoven as Standortarzt already in March. See for example here, NO-265: "Tagebuch der Abteilung fuer Fleckfieber- u. Virusforschung am Hygiene-Institut der Waffen-SS", note for 17.3.1942:

http://nuremberg.law.harvard.edu/php/pf ... _setting=C

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