"Poland wanted war with Germany"

Discussions on all aspects of Poland during the Second Polish Republic and the Second World War. Hosted by Peter K
Jimmyson
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"Poland wanted war with Germany"

Post by Jimmyson » 27 Jun 2011 22:17

[Split from "Der Bromberger Blutsonntag"]

This massacre was dreadful innocent Germans was getting killed by the Polish army and Hitler even wanted an agreement for the pre-German land Danzig but they refused quite blankly.

"Poland wants war with Germany and Germany will not be able to avoid it even if she wants to." (Polish Marshal Rydz-Smigly as reported in the Daily Mail, August 6th, 1939)"

Michael Kenny
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Re: Der Bromberger Blutsonntag

Post by Michael Kenny » 27 Jun 2011 23:31

Jimmyson wrote:"Poland wants war with Germany and Germany will not be able to avoid it even if she wants to." (Polish Marshal Rydz-Smigly as reported in the Daily Mail, August 6th, 1939)"



I have seen this quote used extensively by apologists but so far no one has managed to produce the article.

I suppose one clue as to why this is a problem might be the date.
Aug 6th 1939 was a Sunday and there was no edition of the Daily Mail on a Sunday.
The reference is a fake.

Jimmyson
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Re: Der Bromberger Blutsonntag

Post by Jimmyson » 28 Jun 2011 07:58

Michael Kenny wrote:
Jimmyson wrote:"Poland wants war with Germany and Germany will not be able to avoid it even if she wants to." (Polish Marshal Rydz-Smigly as reported in the Daily Mail, August 6th, 1939)"



I have seen this quote used extensively by apologists but so far no one has managed to produce the article.

I suppose one clue as to why this is a problem might be the date.
Aug 6th 1939 was a Sunday and there was no edition of the Daily Mail on a Sunday.
The reference is a fake.


Wrong. Here is one http://www.jrbooksonline.com/polish_atrocities.htm you also do get the Daily Mail on a Sunday in the UK son.

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ToKu
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Re: Der Bromberger Blutsonntag

Post by ToKu » 28 Jun 2011 08:50

According to wikipedia You do get the Daily Mail on Sunday, since 1982. Which is about 43 years after 1939.

"In 1982, a Sunday title, the Mail on Sunday, was launched"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daily_Mail

I also can't see the article in the link You provided. Can You give more details of where it is located? Direct link to some scans perhaps?

Michael Kenny
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Re: Der Bromberger Blutsonntag

Post by Michael Kenny » 28 Jun 2011 13:09

Jimmyson wrote: you also do get the Daily Mail on a Sunday in the UK son.


You can not buy the Daily Mail on Sunday. They do a special 'Sunday Mail' not the 'Daily Mail'.

This was not published in 1939 and is a fairly recent addition.

There is no newspaper called the Daily Mail for Sunday August 6th 1939.
The quote is a fake.






[

Jimmyson
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Re: Der Bromberger Blutsonntag

Post by Jimmyson » 28 Jun 2011 14:57

Michael Kenny wrote:
Jimmyson wrote: you also do get the Daily Mail on a Sunday in the UK son.


You can not buy the Daily Mail on Sunday. They do a special 'Sunday Mail' not the 'Daily Mail'.

This was not published in 1939 and is a fairly recent addition.

There is no newspaper called the Daily Mail for Sunday August 6th 1939.
The quote is a fake.






[


It is still the same paper called Mail on Sunday, it is by the same newspaper, the quote is not fake and yes it was.

Michael Kenny
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Re: Der Bromberger Blutsonntag

Post by Michael Kenny » 28 Jun 2011 15:53

Jimmyson wrote:

It is still the same paper called Mail on Sunday, it is by the same newspaper, the quote is not fake and yes it was.


The mail On Sunday was first printed in 1982.
The Mail On Sunday did not exist in 1939


Jimmyson wrote:you seem to throw your mouth around with no cited sourced to show otherwise, just because you don't agree with the quote doesn't make it fake.


I have cited several sources that show your quote is an invention.
You have not given a single source that shows the article or any evidence it exists.
Note that posts quoting the article from sick denier sites is not evidence. Only the original article is evidence.
You have not got it because it is a fake.

What makes it a fake is the fact the claim it was printed on August 6th 1939
This was a Sunday and there was no Daily Mail (or Sunday Mail) printed that day.
That means it is a fake.

The Sunday Papers in 1939

News of The World
The People
Sunday Pictorial
Sunday Express
Sunday Dispatch
The Observer


http://www.ampltd.co.uk/digital_guides/ ... sales.aspx

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Re: Der Bromberger Blutsonntag

Post by David Thompson » 28 Jun 2011 16:39

A post from Jimmyson, containing insulting language directed against another poster, was removed by this moderator pursuant to the forum and section rules - DT.

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Re: "Poland wanted war with Germany"

Post by michael mills » 29 Jun 2011 00:36

I suggest we give the issue of the alleged quote by Rydz-Smigly a rest.

I have done a search, and there appears to be no hard evidence of any such statement, only a repetition of claims by dubious organisations.

There is however plenty of hard evidence of high officials of the Polish Government stating that Poland was not afraid of war with Germany, since it believed that if such a war broke out, the Hitler regime would quickly collapse and the Polish cavalry would ride into Berlin within a week. Examples are the statement made by the Polish Ambassador in Berlin, Lipski, to an official of the British embassy, Ogilvie-Forbes, and the statement made by the Polish amry commander to his French counterparts.

Such an attitude on the part of Polish officials was not surprising, since British and French propaganda was churning out that message, no doubt based on secret messages from Germans claiming to represent an internal opposition to Hitler, to the effect that if war broke out the German officer corps would revolt and overthrow Hitler.

There is also hard documentary evidence of a hard-line attitude by the Polish Government and its declared readiness to go to war even over relatively minor incidents. One example is the declaration by the Polish representative in Danzig that the Polish Government would regard any attempt to open the frontier between Danzig and East Prussia (it was kept closed by Polish customs inspectors) as an act of war, to which it would respond by force of arms, thereby precipitating war.

Finally, there is hard evidence of statements by Polish political leaders who were not in the Government, that is members of the internal opposition to the Sanacja regime, that they welcomed war with Germany, seeing it as a means of achieving the aim of seizing German territory east of the Oder-Neisse Line. Of course, those opposition leaders were not speaking for the Polish Government; but they were able to influence it to an acceptance of war.

Anyway, those issues are not really relevant to this topic. The killings of ethnic Germans in Bromberg, three days after the outbreak of war, were the result of an hysterical reaction by Poles to the German invasion, in the context of a war psychosis that had gripped large parts of the Polish population for over a month prior to that invasion.

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Re: "Poland wanted war with Germany"

Post by jola » 29 Jun 2011 07:47

There is however plenty of hard evidence of high officials of the Polish Government stating that Poland was not afraid of war with Germany


I'm not sure you will find a lot of government officials stating that its country's citizens should now be afraid. You will find even fewer generals rallying their troops with the war cry: " I am scared shitless and so should you boys be!!!"

Germany didn't need any help in planning and executing an aggressive war.

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RG
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Re: "Poland wanted war with Germany"

Post by RG » 29 Jun 2011 08:40

michael mills wrote:There is however plenty of hard evidence of high officials of the Polish Government stating that Poland was not afraid of war with Germany, since it believed that if such a war broke out, the Hitler regime would quickly collapse and the Polish cavalry would ride into Berlin within a week. Examples are the statement made by the Polish Ambassador in Berlin, Lipski, to an official of the British embassy, Ogilvie-Forbes, and the statement made by the Polish amry commander to his French counterparts.


It is completely understandable. Poland was desperately looking for allies against German aggression therefore Polish officials were trying to make an impression of Poland being stronger that it was – nobody respects the weak.


michael mills wrote:Anyway, those issues are not really relevant to this topic. The killings of ethnic Germans in Bromberg, three days after the outbreak of war, were the result of an hysterical reaction by Poles to the German invasion, in the context of a war psychosis that had gripped large parts of the Polish population for over a month prior to that invasion.


Well, you want to restart the discussion and it seems that last months and presented evidence that fights in Bydgoszcz were provoked by German saboteurs, supported by part of aggressive German minority were pointless and you are going to repeat nazi propaganda.

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Re: "Poland wanted war with Germany"

Post by michael mills » 29 Jun 2011 13:15

Well, you want to restart the discussion and it seems that last months and presented evidence that fights in Bydgoszcz were provoked by German saboteurs, supported by part of aggressive German minority were pointless and you are going to repeat nazi propaganda.




Poles need to accept that on 2-4 September 1939, members of their nation killed scores of innocent ethnic German civilians in Bromberg/Bydgoszcz.

That is a historical fact, not Nazi propaganda. The only element of Nazi propaganda was the exaggeration of the number of victims by a factor of 10, not the fact that there were ethnic German victims of violence by Polish military and civilians, more than 5000 in all of Poland.

Refusal to accept that historical fact is an indication that many Poles have still not escaped from their chauvinist way of thinking, unlike the vast majority of Germans, who have totally renounced their own chauvinism.

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Re: "Poland wanted war with Germany"

Post by Peter K » 01 Jul 2011 18:33

michael mills wrote:unlike the vast majority of Germans, who have totally renounced their own chauvinism.


They didn't renounce it - they just handed it over to fanatic Australians.

michael mills wrote:more than 5000 in all of Poland.


Graberzentrale reported only 3,178 dead and 996 missing (of which many were later found) Volksdeutsche in entire Poland during entire campaign and these are deaths from all causes (this includes for example also Polish citizens of German ethnicity who died during air bombings of Polish towns carried out by Luftwaffe).

Germans finally have to accept that during terrorist Luftwaffe attacks against Polish cities, they also killed ethnic Germans living in those cities. And that there was German sabotage in Poland, organized by Abwehra.

By comparison Polish civilian losses in September 1939 were at least 50 - 60,000 dead. This includes 16,000 murdered or executed in 714 mass murders. The rest died mainly as the result of combats - including Luftwaffe attacks.

25,000 civilians died during the siege of Warsaw alone. 1,200 in the terror bombing of Wielun.

There is no comparison in scale between German and Polish civilian losses.

Also around 3,000 Polish POWs were murdered by Germans. Many further by Red Army.

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Mischa
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Re: "Poland wanted war with Germany"

Post by Mischa » 01 Jul 2011 19:38

Poland wanted war with Germany"

Yes, It is true, I belive it.
I recommend a very good book. The author benefited a lot from the official Polish archival documents, in which up to now most authors describing this period did not pay attention at all, because it believed that they are not convincing, in fact it was a matter that they do not revise what the end War was proclaimed as absolute truth, because it would unmask their lies. Many experts obtained on the basis of his work published in the past, their degrees and those shouting loudest that the author obviously lying, no because I like to admit now that they did say the truth. It would be nice if it appeared translated into English, but my English is too weak, but a translation in to German I try to do becaus those language i know much better. The history of this country requires ventilation and looks with a completely different angle, what makes the author, confronting the Polish point of view of German documents and descriptions, which strongly confirms the truth did not Polish.

It is only my private opinion.
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wm
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Re: "Poland wanted war with Germany"

Post by wm » 01 Jul 2011 20:13

michael mills wrote:Finally, there is hard evidence of statements by Polish political leaders who were not in the Government, that is members of the internal opposition to the Sanacja regime, that they welcomed war with Germany, seeing it as a means of achieving the aim of seizing German territory east of the Oder-Neisse Line. Of course, those opposition leaders were not speaking for the Polish Government; but they were able to influence it to an acceptance of war.

I'm really curious, as the parties forming Polish weak and disorganized (at least comparing to the three separate fractions inside the ruling Sanation regime) opposition were:

Polish Socialist Party
People's Party
National Democracy
National Party
Labour Party
National Radical Camp Falanga
National Radical Camp ABC
Communist Party of Poland

leaders of which party wanted the Oder-Neisse Line and a war with Germany?

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