War Crimes of the Red army

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War Crimes of the Red army

Post by Jan-Hendrik » 14 Aug 2011 22:13

[Split from "Review: Total War by Michael Jones"]

es. Jones continually emphasizes that it was a minority of the Red army that committed crimes on enemy soil, while the majority managed to preserve their reputation and the title of 'liberators'.
Where did that happened? In the Tundra of Norther Norway?

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Re: Review: Total War by Michael Jones

Post by Kunikov » 14 Aug 2011 22:17

Jan-Hendrik wrote:
es. Jones continually emphasizes that it was a minority of the Red army that committed crimes on enemy soil, while the majority managed to preserve their reputation and the title of 'liberators'.
Where did that happened? In the Tundra of Norther Norway?

Jan-Hendrik

You should probably look up the definition of 'majority'.
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Re: Review: Total War by Michael Jones

Post by Jan-Hendrik » 14 Aug 2011 22:22

Hm, I found not much examples for the 'liberation' of Poland, Hungary, Romania, the Baltics, occupied part of Germany, Austria, Slovakia , Czech where there happened no large scale crimes when Red Army invaded the territory...

Maybe the author finds nice terms for whitewashing this fact, but well, that did others before...

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Re: Review: Total War by Michael Jones

Post by phylo_roadking » 14 Aug 2011 22:22

The Red Army's crossing over into Germany proper brings much debate and controversy. What Jones attempts to do, and in truth does very well, is contextualize what Red Army soldiers perpetrated on German territory. In showcasing what Red Army soldiers witnessed on their way to Germany, the enormous amount of death and destruction they came through during the liberation of Ukraine and Belorussia, the liberation of camps like Majdanek and Auschwitz (both of which are discussed by Jones in this book), as well as the regular propaganda campaign waged by the Soviet Union in order to keep up Red Army morale and encourage them to 'kill' the occupiers of their territory and the murderers of their families and friends, there is reason to suspect that such bent up anger and hatred would have an outlet once the German border was crossed. And this is exactly what happened. But Jones also gives voice to those soldiers who attempted to curb the violence, looting, raping, and murder that was going on. He continually implies that this was a minority within the Red Army that contributed to the 'total war' mentality of the time and shows orders coming from the high command and army command that attempted to curb any type of violence and looting against the local population, changing the propaganda of the time from 'destroy the fascist beast in his lair' to a voice claiming the Red Army is an army of liberation. There are some heartwrenching stories presented of Red Army soldiers taking out their hatred on the German population, all too often women, but in each case Jones attempts to contextualize the atmosphere these events occurred in and the reaction of Red Army soldiers to these events, which after the initial euphoria of revenge passed quickly into condemnation, contempt and a questioning of their methods. Many soldiers even attempted to protect the local population, forgetting or at least putting aside the propaganda they had been exposed to for years.
So, if this book - "revolves around what the Red Army and civilian population endured, witnessed, and remembered up until their entrance into East Prussia and Germany proper" - it would be fair to note that no matter if they were carried out by a minority, or by Poles...as the author would wish us to understand it....this book confirms that the rapes etc. did take place and were widespread?
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Re: Review: Total War by Michael Jones

Post by phylo_roadking » 14 Aug 2011 22:26

I would also have to note that tactics like this...
The Red Army's crossing over into Germany proper brings much debate and controversy. What Jones attempts to do, and in truth does very well, is contextualize what Red Army soldiers perpetrated on German territory. In showcasing what Red Army soldiers witnessed on their way to Germany, the enormous amount of death and destruction they came through during the liberation of Ukraine and Belorussia, the liberation of camps like Majdanek and Auschwitz (both of which are discussed by Jones in this book), as well as the regular propaganda campaign waged by the Soviet Union in order to keep up Red Army morale and encourage them to 'kill' the occupiers of their territory and the murderers of their families and friends, there is reason to suspect that such bent up anger and hatred would have an outlet once the German border was crossed. And this is exactly what happened. But Jones also gives voice to those soldiers who attempted to curb the violence, looting, raping, and murder that was going on. He continually implies that this was a minority within the Red Army that contributed to the 'total war' mentality of the time and shows orders coming from the high command and army command that attempted to curb any type of violence and looting against the local population, changing the propaganda of the time from 'destroy the fascist beast in his lair' to a voice claiming the Red Army is an army of liberation. There are some heartwrenching stories presented of Red Army soldiers taking out their hatred on the German population, all too often women, but in each case Jones attempts to contextualize the atmosphere these events occurred in and the reaction of Red Army soldiers to these events, which after the initial euphoria of revenge passed quickly into condemnation, contempt and a questioning of their methods. Many soldiers even attempted to protect the local population, forgetting or at least putting aside the propaganda they had been exposed to for years.
....to contextualise, to minimise, to play down the numbers involved, etc. - are regarded as despicable when used to play down or deny the Holocaust? 8O

We shouldn't make the mistake of lauding one historian/author for using them to reduce the claimed impact of animalistic actions....for how THEN can we claim that other authors/historians using the same tactics to reduce the impact of other atrocities are wriong to do so???

There are some areas in which we shouldn't accept, or encourage by our acceptance, double standards...
Last edited by phylo_roadking on 14 Aug 2011 22:30, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Review: Total War by Michael Jones

Post by Kunikov » 14 Aug 2011 22:27

phylo_roadking wrote:
The Red Army's crossing over into Germany proper brings much debate and controversy. What Jones attempts to do, and in truth does very well, is contextualize what Red Army soldiers perpetrated on German territory. In showcasing what Red Army soldiers witnessed on their way to Germany, the enormous amount of death and destruction they came through during the liberation of Ukraine and Belorussia, the liberation of camps like Majdanek and Auschwitz (both of which are discussed by Jones in this book), as well as the regular propaganda campaign waged by the Soviet Union in order to keep up Red Army morale and encourage them to 'kill' the occupiers of their territory and the murderers of their families and friends, there is reason to suspect that such bent up anger and hatred would have an outlet once the German border was crossed. And this is exactly what happened. But Jones also gives voice to those soldiers who attempted to curb the violence, looting, raping, and murder that was going on. He continually implies that this was a minority within the Red Army that contributed to the 'total war' mentality of the time and shows orders coming from the high command and army command that attempted to curb any type of violence and looting against the local population, changing the propaganda of the time from 'destroy the fascist beast in his lair' to a voice claiming the Red Army is an army of liberation. There are some heartwrenching stories presented of Red Army soldiers taking out their hatred on the German population, all too often women, but in each case Jones attempts to contextualize the atmosphere these events occurred in and the reaction of Red Army soldiers to these events, which after the initial euphoria of revenge passed quickly into condemnation, contempt and a questioning of their methods. Many soldiers even attempted to protect the local population, forgetting or at least putting aside the propaganda they had been exposed to for years.
So, if this book - "revolves around what the Red Army and civilian population endured, witnessed, and remembered up until their entrance into East Prussia and Germany proper" - it would be fair to note that no matter if they were carried out by a minority, or by Poles...as the author would wish us to understand it....this book confirms that the rapes etc. did take place and were widespread?
Yes, rapes, looting, murder, etc., all took place. I can't comment on the idea of 'widespread' though, the allies raped some 50,000 women during their 'liberation' of Western Europe, does that fit the definition of 'widespread'? I can only say that they happened. Jones offers no numbers, only shares accounts from both sides of what they witnessed/experienced.
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Re: Review: Total War by Michael Jones

Post by Jan-Hendrik » 14 Aug 2011 22:27

Well, the fact that the troops got their 'free time' for looting and raping after taking a city should be enough to understand the 'system' behind :|

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Re: Review: Total War by Michael Jones

Post by Kunikov » 14 Aug 2011 22:29

phylo_roadking wrote:I would also have to note that tactics like this...

....to contextualise, to minimise, to play down the numbers involved, etc. - are regarded as despicable when used to play down or deny the Holocaust? 8O

You are muddying the water, to contextualize does not necessarily mean to minimize or to play down anything.
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Re: Review: Total War by Michael Jones

Post by phylo_roadking » 14 Aug 2011 22:38

You are muddying the water, to contextualize does not necessarily mean to minimize or to play down anything.
Well, looking again...
What Jones attempts to do, and in truth does very well, is contextualize what Red Army soldiers perpetrated on German territory. In showcasing what Red Army soldiers witnessed on their way to Germany, the enormous amount of death and destruction they came through during the liberation of Ukraine and Belorussia, the liberation of camps like Majdanek and Auschwitz (both of which are discussed by Jones in this book), as well as the regular propaganda campaign waged by the Soviet Union in order to keep up Red Army morale and encourage them to 'kill' the occupiers of their territory and the murderers of their families and friends, there is reason to suspect that such bent up anger and hatred would have an outlet once the German border was crossed.
-I can see justification...
But Jones also gives voice to those soldiers who attempted to curb the violence, looting, raping, and murder that was going on. He continually implies that this was a minority within the Red Army that contributed to the 'total war' mentality of the time
....minimising...
There are some heartwrenching stories presented of Red Army soldiers taking out their hatred on the German population, all too often women, but in each case Jones attempts to contextualize the atmosphere these events occurred in and the reaction of Red Army soldiers to these events
...and contextualising.

I'm very well aware the above is your authorship, K., and not Jones' - and is only comments on Jones' material - but don't rush to defend it too much :wink: As Jones seems to have done about his chosen subject.
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Re: Review: Total War by Michael Jones

Post by Kunikov » 14 Aug 2011 22:45

phylo_roadking wrote:
You are muddying the water, to contextualize does not necessarily mean to minimize or to play down anything.
Well, looking again...
What Jones attempts to do, and in truth does very well, is contextualize what Red Army soldiers perpetrated on German territory. In showcasing what Red Army soldiers witnessed on their way to Germany, the enormous amount of death and destruction they came through during the liberation of Ukraine and Belorussia, the liberation of camps like Majdanek and Auschwitz (both of which are discussed by Jones in this book), as well as the regular propaganda campaign waged by the Soviet Union in order to keep up Red Army morale and encourage them to 'kill' the occupiers of their territory and the murderers of their families and friends, there is reason to suspect that such bent up anger and hatred would have an outlet once the German border was crossed.
-I can see justification...
We see what we want to see. It isn't justification to me, it's in part an explanation for what happened.
phylo_roadking wrote:
But Jones also gives voice to those soldiers who attempted to curb the violence, looting, raping, and murder that was going on. He continually implies that this was a minority within the Red Army that contributed to the 'total war' mentality of the time
....minimising...
On the contrary, it is only minimizing to those who have exaggerated what happened on a regular basis. Claiming it was a minority simply puts the actions perpetrated in their proper context, that of being done by a minority rather than the entirety of the Red Army or the majority.
phylo_roadking wrote:
There are some heartwrenching stories presented of Red Army soldiers taking out their hatred on the German population, all too often women, but in each case Jones attempts to contextualize the atmosphere these events occurred in and the reaction of Red Army soldiers to these events
...and contextualising.
Nothing wrong in writing history with context rather than in a vacuum, as so many others do.
phylo_roadking wrote: I'm very well aware the above is your authorship, K., and not Jones' - and is only comments on Jones' material - but don't rush to defend it too much :wink: As Jones seems to have done about his chosen subject.


I am solely defending my review. If you're interested in how Jones contextualizes and what evidence he presents, I recommend getting a copy of his book.
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Re: Review: Total War by Michael Jones

Post by phylo_roadking » 14 Aug 2011 22:52

it's in part an explanation for what happened
Certain events should be recorded - and not "explained". I'm not aware that there's any worthy explanation for rape and other atrocities. By ANY party.
On the contrary, it is only minimizing to those who have exaggerated what happened on a regular basis. Claiming it was a minority simply puts the actions perpetrated in their proper context, that of being done by a minority rather than the entirety of the Red Army or the majority
Given that the exact numbers and frequency has never been and now likely never WILL be quantified - how can you say that there is regular exaggeration? We don't know the numbers, so how do we "know" they've been exaggerated?
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Re: Review: Total War by Michael Jones

Post by Kunikov » 14 Aug 2011 23:17

phylo_roadking wrote:
it's in part an explanation for what happened
Certain events should be recorded - and not "explained". I'm not aware that there's any worthy explanation for rape and other atrocities. By ANY party.
That's history in a vacuum, something I don't adhere to. Historians do not simply record events, they offer, or should strive to offer, a contextualized understanding of what happened and why.
phylo_roadking wrote:
On the contrary, it is only minimizing to those who have exaggerated what happened on a regular basis. Claiming it was a minority simply puts the actions perpetrated in their proper context, that of being done by a minority rather than the entirety of the Red Army or the majority
Given that the exact numbers and frequency has never been and now likely never WILL be quantified - how can you say that there is regular exaggeration? We don't know the numbers, so how do we "know" they've been exaggerated?
Because the oft-quoted number is 2 million, that's well enough established, the statistics it's based on aren't backed up by any factual data. Thus it is an extrapolation and at best an exaggeration that has been parroted for years, if not decades.
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Re: Review: Total War by Michael Jones

Post by phylo_roadking » 15 Aug 2011 00:00

a contextualized understanding of what happened
Nothing wrong with that...but when they verge into
"...and why..."
...they need to be careful of what they're explaining; why atrocities happened at all - or why it was less than could be expected or claimed by others. Because that last can really only be countered by proof - not by yet another opinion.
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Re: Review: Total War by Michael Jones

Post by Kunikov » 15 Aug 2011 00:05

phylo_roadking wrote:
a contextualized understanding of what happened
Nothing wrong with that...but when they verge into
"...and why..."
...they need to be careful of what they're explaining; why atrocities happened at all - or why it was less than could be expected or claimed by others. Because that last can really only be countered by proof - not by yet another opinion.
Jones doesn't address any numbers within his book, rather, he shows that the events going on during the Red Army's march through Eastern Europe and into Germany were multifaceted, ranging from the worst to numerous altruistic acts.
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Re: Review: Total War by Michael Jones

Post by phylo_roadking » 15 Aug 2011 00:12

Jones doesn't address any numbers within his book,
...tho' according to your review he DOES address quantities...
The Red Army's crossing over into Germany proper brings much debate and controversy. What Jones attempts to do, and in truth does very well, is contextualize what Red Army soldiers perpetrated on German territory. In showcasing what Red Army soldiers witnessed on their way to Germany, the enormous amount of death and destruction they came through during the liberation of Ukraine and Belorussia, the liberation of camps like Majdanek and Auschwitz (both of which are discussed by Jones in this book), as well as the regular propaganda campaign waged by the Soviet Union in order to keep up Red Army morale and encourage them to 'kill' the occupiers of their territory and the murderers of their families and friends, there is reason to suspect that such bent up anger and hatred would have an outlet once the German border was crossed. And this is exactly what happened. But Jones also gives voice to those soldiers who attempted to curb the violence, looting, raping, and murder that was going on. He continually implies that this was a minority within the Red Army that contributed to the 'total war' mentality of the time and shows orders coming from the high command and army command that attempted to curb any type of violence and looting against the local population, changing the propaganda of the time from 'destroy the fascist beast in his lair' to a voice claiming the Red Army is an army of liberation. There are some heartwrenching stories presented of Red Army soldiers taking out their hatred on the German population, all too often women, but in each case Jones attempts to contextualize the atmosphere these events occurred in and the reaction of Red Army soldiers to these events, which after the initial euphoria of revenge passed quickly into condemnation, contempt and a questioning of their methods. Many soldiers even attempted to protect the local population, forgetting or at least putting aside the propaganda they had been exposed to for years.
As in comparing one degree of something with another...
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