Britain makes peace in 1940 - What happens to the Jews?

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Politician01
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Britain makes peace in 1940 - What happens to the Jews?

Post by Politician01 » 08 Jan 2012 10:19

Assuming things went much worse for Britain in 1940 - the BEF captured at Dunkirk, Churchill doesnt become PM or whatever - and as a result Britain makes peace with Germany.

What happens to the Jews??

Will the Nazis execute the Madagaskar plan or will they try to exterminate them anyway?

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Tim Smith
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Re: Britain makes peace in 1940 - What happens to the Jews?

Post by Tim Smith » 08 Jan 2012 11:32

Depends on how the war goes with the Soviets. IMO Hitler would have attacked them anyway in 1941 even if he hadn't been fighting Britain at the same time. And the US is likely to still ship Lend-Lease to Russia.

If the Soviets get the upper hand on the Eastern Front, i.e. if the Germans still lose the Battles of Moscow and Stalingrad, then Hitler will have to execute the Final Solution anyway to prevent the Jews being liberated by the Soviets.

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wm
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Re: Britain makes peace in 1940 - What happens to the Jews?

Post by wm » 08 Jan 2012 12:05

But in this ATL it is likely that there would be no Moscow or Stalingrad, because the Red Army would be ready, deployed properly and on war footing. The Stalin self-deception depended entirely on a worsening war between Germany and Great Britain.

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phylo_roadking
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Re: Britain makes peace in 1940 - What happens to the Jews?

Post by phylo_roadking » 08 Jan 2012 15:43

Assuming things went much worse for Britain in 1940 - the BEF captured at Dunkirk, Churchill doesnt become PM or whatever - and as a result Britain makes peace with Germany.
Your timeline is a tad off...Churchill became Prime Minister on the 9th of May....the Germans invaded the West in the wee small hours of the next morning.

One interesting aspect that has to be considered is....if the British make peace, what happens to Britain's Jews??? 8O

When Churchill and the War Cabinet had their fractious discussions over the peace offer made via italy and Sweden in the middle of DYNAMO - it does indeed look as if they were considering a peace like Finland had recently concluded with the USSR I.E. the junior partner, with peace forced upon it. Churchill and others considered the implications of a forced disarmament, with accompanying disarmament commissioners installed in the UK - very much a la Vichy...and of course the British Union of Fascists being allowed to campaign freely, even the NSDAP being allowed to set up and politcally campaign in the UK etc....

In other words - a slow, attritional political campaign instead of a military one, waged in the United Kingdom's streets and polling booths...likely to result in the medium to long term in a Fascist government coming to power in the UK, buoyed up by the appaent ...and suitably propagandized!...failure of the old parties to defend the nation effectively....

...with all the racial laws then enshrined in UK law.
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Markus Becker
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Re: Britain makes peace in 1940 - What happens to the Jews?

Post by Markus Becker » 08 Jan 2012 17:58

Tim Smith wrote: If the Soviets get the upper hand on the Eastern Front, i.e. if the Germans still lose the Battles of Moscow and Stalingrad, then Hitler will have to execute the Final Solution anyway to prevent the Jews being liberated by the Soviets.
The Final Solution had already begun. 1939-41 in Poland was the warm up phase. When the USSR was attacked the 'Einsatzgruppen' followed the military closely and 'got to work' immediately.

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phylo_roadking
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Re: Britain makes peace in 1940 - What happens to the Jews?

Post by phylo_roadking » 08 Jan 2012 18:30

Berlin's Jews weren't "shipped East" as quick as they could have been, it was 1942-3 before the last of three arrest waves...because they were invaluable to the capital's huge munitions industry and their employers intervened several times to protect them, both openly and covertly...

If the war comes to an early end - their value to their employers drops significantly overnight, and they are sent East far sooner.
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wm
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Re: Britain makes peace in 1940 - What happens to the Jews?

Post by wm » 08 Jan 2012 19:42

phylo_roadking wrote:In other words - a slow, attritional political campaign instead of a military one, waged in the United Kingdom's streets and polling booths...likely to result in the medium to long term in a Fascist government coming to power in the UK, buoyed up by the appaent ...and suitably propagandized!...failure of the old parties to defend the nation effectively....
...with all the racial laws then enshrined in UK law.
but it does not mean that the new government would be in love with Germany, the feeling of humiliation and and the desire for revenge would dominate every other feeling. It is exactly what happened in Poland, people were mad at the former government, government officials, intellectuals and Jews but they hated the Nazis even more.

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phylo_roadking
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Re: Britain makes peace in 1940 - What happens to the Jews?

Post by phylo_roadking » 08 Jan 2012 20:01

but it does not mean that the new government would be in love with Germany, the feeling of humiliation and and the desire for revenge would dominate every other feeling.
....unless spun as the new government - Moseley etc. - as taking the nation away from the old rivalries etc. that brought on such a disaster. This is what Churchill feared - having to fight an election campaign under the shadow of all the old parties having to avoid any of the likely peace treaty-imposed regulations forbidding overt anti-German bias - while the burgeoning fascist "opposition" are free to say whatever they want.
It is exactly what happened in Poland, people were mad at the former government, government officials, intellectuals and Jews but they hated the Nazis even more
The Germans invaded Poland and treated the Poles abominably. Britain wouldn't be invaded...because peace was agreed instead - and on the surface would for a short time appear to have got off lightly; like Vichy, Britain would retain its overseas interests etc. ...just not be able to hold on to them :wink: The subsequent "revolution" would APPEAR to be entirely homegrown...
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Andy H
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Re: Britain makes peace in 1940 - What happens to the Jews?

Post by Andy H » 10 Jan 2012 15:12

Politician01 wrote:Assuming things went much worse for Britain in 1940 - the BEF captured at Dunkirk, Churchill doesnt become PM or whatever - and as a result Britain makes peace with Germany.

What happens to the Jews??

Will the Nazis execute the Madagaskar plan or will they try to exterminate them anyway?
Hi

Can the OP please comply with the WI guidelines and post their own answers to the question(s) posed. By doing so it helps put some context into a otherwise vacuous space, and helps others formulate a response.

Regards

Andy H

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Baltasar
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Re: Britain makes peace in 1940 - What happens to the Jews?

Post by Baltasar » 14 Jan 2012 14:01

wm wrote:But in this ATL it is likely that there would be no Moscow or Stalingrad, because the Red Army would be ready, deployed properly and on war footing. The Stalin self-deception depended entirely on a worsening war between Germany and Great Britain.
And would that really help the Red Army? Their forces were more numerous than the Axis forces, but their equipment, their tactics and strategies, their leaders... It could as well lead to much higher losses for the Soviet armed forces than historically. The Axis would also fight these battles much nearer to their own supply lines while the Soviets would be deployed much nearer to the border...

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Re: Britain makes peace in 1940 - What happens to the Jews?

Post by maltesefalcon » 14 Jan 2012 15:52

It is only my opinion of course but I don't believe Germany would have implemented the Madagascar plan even if the opportunity presented itself.

It was far easier(and more final) to enslave the fittest and kill off the rest. If you move them to a central location, eventually you have a large population of pissed off emigres awaiting their chance for revenge.

Not only that Hitler planned to exterminate the political opposition and intelligencia from his own and conquered nations. In addition could be added Gypsies, homosexuals, Commisars, Slavs etc etc. Were they all going to Madagascar too?

The failure of this so-called option due to continued war with the Allies was just a convenient way to shift some of the blame for the Final Solution on them after the war.

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wm
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Re: Britain makes peace in 1940 - What happens to the Jews?

Post by wm » 14 Jan 2012 22:33

Baltasar wrote:
wm wrote:But in this ATL it is likely that there would be no Moscow or Stalingrad, because the Red Army would be ready, deployed properly and on war footing. The Stalin self-deception depended entirely on a worsening war between Germany and Great Britain.
And would that really help the Red Army? Their forces were more numerous than the Axis forces, but their equipment, their tactics and strategies, their leaders... It could as well lead to much higher losses for the Soviet armed forces than historically. The Axis would also fight these battles much nearer to their own supply lines while the Soviets would be deployed much nearer to the border...
I would say in many ways:
the troops would be alerted, the Molotov line would be properly manned, the Soviet artillery would be ready to open fire on the German troops concentrations and have time to retreat and regroup, the Soviet Air-Force would be dispersed and not neutralized, so the Luftwaffe would not have air superiority, the primitive Stukas would blown out of the skies so the air ground support would be nonexistent and the supply dumps would survive, the Brody counteroffensive would succeed (it almost succeeded in the OTL)

and most importantly the Soviets would not be caught in a middle of reorganization, and there would be no pre-war Luftwaffe reconnaissance of the Soviet territory so the Germans would be attacking blindly.
Last edited by wm on 15 Jan 2012 02:36, edited 1 time in total.

James A Pratt III
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Re: Britain makes peace in 1940 - What happens to the Jews?

Post by James A Pratt III » 15 Jan 2012 01:39

If Britain did make peace in n1940 it's curtains for the USSR. Not having to have any BofB losses the Luftwaffe is in better shape. No RN to deal with means the Germans can cut back on warship construction. Which means more resources for tank and plane construction. This also means more troops for the East. All the rest of Europe is now on Germanys side or neutral. There is also no lend lease aid for the Soviets without which the USSR would not have survived the 1941-42 period. After the end of the USSR Hitler can do whatever he wants and demand whatever he wants. No doubt some but not all Jews in England will handed over to Hitler for the "Final Solution".

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LWD
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Re: Britain makes peace in 1940 - What happens to the Jews?

Post by LWD » 17 Jan 2012 16:21

Making peace in 1940 doesn't preclude aiding the Soviet in 41 or later.

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phylo_roadking
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Re: Britain makes peace in 1940 - What happens to the Jews?

Post by phylo_roadking » 17 Jan 2012 16:56

Making peace in 1940 doesn't preclude aiding the Soviet in 41 or later.
It probably does; Churchill and the cabinet were discussing settlement options that would end up with the UK looking remarkably like Vichy would within a few short weeks and months :( I can't see how she'd be able or allowed to help the Soviets.
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