Britain makes peace in 1940 - What happens to the Jews?

Discussions on the Holocaust and 20th Century War Crimes. Note that Holocaust denial is not allowed. Hosted by David Thompson.
Locked
User avatar
Baltasar
Member
Posts: 4614
Joined: 21 Feb 2003, 16:56
Location: Germany

Re: Britain makes peace in 1940 - What happens to the Jews?

#16

Post by Baltasar » 17 Jan 2012, 22:41

wm wrote:
Baltasar wrote:
wm wrote:But in this ATL it is likely that there would be no Moscow or Stalingrad, because the Red Army would be ready, deployed properly and on war footing. The Stalin self-deception depended entirely on a worsening war between Germany and Great Britain.
And would that really help the Red Army? Their forces were more numerous than the Axis forces, but their equipment, their tactics and strategies, their leaders... It could as well lead to much higher losses for the Soviet armed forces than historically. The Axis would also fight these battles much nearer to their own supply lines while the Soviets would be deployed much nearer to the border...
I would say in many ways:
the troops would be alerted, the Molotov line would be properly manned, the Soviet artillery would be ready to open fire on the German troops concentrations and have time to retreat and regroup, the Soviet Air-Force would be dispersed and not neutralized, so the Luftwaffe would not have air superiority, the primitive Stukas would blown out of the skies so the air ground support would be nonexistent and the supply dumps would survive, the Brody counteroffensive would succeed (it almost succeeded in the OTL)

and most importantly the Soviets would not be caught in a middle of reorganization, and there would be no pre-war Luftwaffe reconnaissance of the Soviet territory so the Germans would be attacking blindly.
Though we are not discussing this, I may point out that the tactics, intelligence, leadership and strategic planning on the Soviet side wasn't exactly good. Furthermore, the Axis forces would be operating a lot nearer to their supply and communiction lines. Once the first Soviet line had been breached here, there would not be much behind it in terms of reserve troops. Add to this a larger Wehrmacht, which does not have to keep planes and troops in occupied parts of Europe, potentially even avoiding the Battle of Britain.

I'm not saying that the Axis would win this inevitably, I just say that from this perspective, it looks like the Soviets would face the prospect of losing a much larger portion of their forces in the initial battles than historically.

User avatar
Baltasar
Member
Posts: 4614
Joined: 21 Feb 2003, 16:56
Location: Germany

Re: Britain makes peace in 1940 - What happens to the Jews?

#17

Post by Baltasar » 17 Jan 2012, 22:42

phylo_roadking wrote:
Making peace in 1940 doesn't preclude aiding the Soviet in 41 or later.
It probably does; Churchill and the cabinet were discussing settlement options that would end up with the UK looking remarkably like Vichy would within a few short weeks and months :( I can't see how she'd be able or allowed to help the Soviets.
Would the USA get involved here? They might be interested to support the Russians with goods if only to keep them strong enough to be a concern to the Japanese, who in turn would be a threat to the USA.


User avatar
phylo_roadking
Member
Posts: 17488
Joined: 01 May 2006, 00:31
Location: Belfast

Re: Britain makes peace in 1940 - What happens to the Jews?

#18

Post by phylo_roadking » 17 Jan 2012, 22:45

Would the USA get involved here? They might be interested to support the Russians with goods if only to keep them strong enough to be a concern to the Japanese, who in turn would be a threat to the USA.
I'm not sure they would; remember for how long the Western Allies regarded the USSR as an "ally" of Hitler's, even if not an active combatant. Be worth checking what the status of the USSR was prior to BARBAROSSA under the Presidential exclsusion clauses of the Neutrality Act.... :wink:
Twenty years ago we had Johnny Cash, Bob Hope and Steve Jobs. Now we have no Cash, no Hope and no Jobs....
Lord, please keep Kevin Bacon alive...

User avatar
pacifritz
Member
Posts: 123
Joined: 07 Jul 2011, 21:41

Re: Britain makes peace in 1940 - What happens to the Jews?

#19

Post by pacifritz » 20 Jan 2012, 13:18

I believe all Jews in Britain discovered by the Nazis would have been exterminated. The Jews who fled the Nazi jackboot accross Europe to other countries which were eventually swallowed up by Germany met the same fate if they were caught....why should the Jews found in Britain have been treated any differently?

The only thing I'm not sure of is whether permanent killing centers would have been established in Britain, or whether the victims would have been shipped to Auschwitz and other killing facilities: I tend to take the view that a 'British Auschwitz' would likely be built out of neccessity, to depopulate 'surplus' British inhabitants, [the UK was overpopulated even in the early 40s] which would include races other than soley Jews.

User avatar
phylo_roadking
Member
Posts: 17488
Joined: 01 May 2006, 00:31
Location: Belfast

Re: Britain makes peace in 1940 - What happens to the Jews?

#20

Post by phylo_roadking » 20 Jan 2012, 18:41

I believe all Jews in Britain discovered by the Nazis would have been exterminated. The Jews who fled the Nazi jackboot accross Europe to other countries which were eventually swallowed up by Germany met the same fate if they were caught....why should the Jews found in Britain have been treated any differently?
I'm afraid you've missed something - the title of the thread! Britain is NOT invaded, it makes peace - ideally we DON'T have any Nazis or occupation forces. See my first post.
When Churchill and the War Cabinet had their fractious discussions over the peace offer made via italy and Sweden in the middle of DYNAMO - it does indeed look as if they were considering a peace like Finland had recently concluded with the USSR I.E. the junior partner, with peace forced upon it. Churchill and others considered the implications of a forced disarmament, with accompanying disarmament commissioners installed in the UK - very much a la Vichy...and of course the British Union of Fascists being allowed to campaign freely, even the NSDAP being allowed to set up and politcally campaign in the UK etc....

In other words - a slow, attritional political campaign instead of a military one, waged in the United Kingdom's streets and polling booths...likely to result in the medium to long term in a Fascist government coming to power in the UK, buoyed up by the appaent ...and suitably propagandized!...failure of the old parties to defend the nation effectively....

...with all the racial laws then enshrined in UK law.
The Germans invaded Poland and treated the Poles abominably. Britain wouldn't be invaded...because peace was agreed instead - and on the surface would for a short time appear to have got off lightly; like Vichy, Britain would retain its overseas interests etc. ...just not be able to hold on to them The subsequent "revolution" would APPEAR to be entirely homegrown...
Twenty years ago we had Johnny Cash, Bob Hope and Steve Jobs. Now we have no Cash, no Hope and no Jobs....
Lord, please keep Kevin Bacon alive...

User avatar
pacifritz
Member
Posts: 123
Joined: 07 Jul 2011, 21:41

Re: Britain makes peace in 1940 - What happens to the Jews?

#21

Post by pacifritz » 20 Jan 2012, 22:32

Mr Phylo, if Britain made peace with Germany it simply would have meant that the Invasion by Germany would have been postponed whilst the Nazis 'sorted out' Barbarossa first: but the end result is the same: Nazi domination of all reachable countries. Any 'peace' between Germany and Britain simply would mean that Nazi resources could be concentrated against the USSR, which would have suited Hitler. Do you seriously believe that everlasting 'peace' between Nazi Germany and the UK was ever a real possibility?

The 'pact of steel' between the Soviets/Nazis accounted for absolutely nothing in the long run, and that was a much bigger deal than the tiny island of Britain. Any belief in true 'peace' while the Nazis were still a force to be reckoned with is a pipe dream at best.


I acknowledge you are rigidly adhering to the limited constraints of the topic title here, however the actual theater of real War knows no bounds, making your observations questionable at best.

User avatar
phylo_roadking
Member
Posts: 17488
Joined: 01 May 2006, 00:31
Location: Belfast

Re: Britain makes peace in 1940 - What happens to the Jews?

#22

Post by phylo_roadking » 20 Jan 2012, 22:53

Do you seriously believe that everlasting 'peace' between Nazi Germany and the UK was ever a real possibility?
Was a lasting peace possible? Only if it was made on THEIR terms - and those terms prevented action on any level against it in the future by the British I.E. disarmament etc.

Do *I* think there was ever a possibility of it? For a short time, about 36 hours in the middle of DYNAMO, there was a chance, Churchill severely wobbled. Halifax nearly had him talked round...thought he had had him talked round - then Churchill went and addressed the FULL Cabinet and his position had hardened again.
Mr Phylo, if Britain made peace with Germany it simply would have meant that the Invasion by Germany would have been postponed whilst the Nazis 'sorted out' Barbarossa first: but the end result is the same: Nazi domination of all reachable countries.
Why invade if Germany gets what it weants from the peace terms? Look at Vichy - Germany only invaded there because of the events in the French colonies in North Africa; prior to THAT, Germany had a pliant but supposedly independent France that was exporting all sorts to her, building aircraft for her etc....that even paid for and adminstered the bit of France under direct German occupation! Talk about cost-effective...
The 'pact of steel' between the Soviets/Nazis accounted for absolutely nothing in the long run, and that was a much bigger deal than the tiny island of Britain
Really??? What exactly did Hitler get from the USSR that it couldn't get from Britain and its empire after a peace treaty was signed?
Twenty years ago we had Johnny Cash, Bob Hope and Steve Jobs. Now we have no Cash, no Hope and no Jobs....
Lord, please keep Kevin Bacon alive...

User avatar
sunbury2
Member
Posts: 203
Joined: 07 Jan 2012, 09:35

Re: Britain makes peace in 1940 - What happens to the Jews?

#23

Post by sunbury2 » 22 Jan 2012, 03:54

European Jewry would still be exterminated, nothing would change there. The Nazis saw the Slavs and the Jews as undermenschen and they would proceed with their plans to exterminate the Jews in Europe and decimate the Slavs so they were reduced to being serfs.

Britian if at peace would probably not send any Jews to Europe. One hopes that anyways. 3 Jews were sent to Auschwitz from the occupied British Channel Islands during the war. Thats all we have to draw on for historical data, the British Police on the Island worked with the Germans to send those 3 unfortunates to their deaths.

Britian might have been able to keep British Jews safe but could have been forced to send European refugee Jews back to Germany. It is a tricky question. In 1938-1939 Britian took in 10,000 Jewish Children from Germany and Austria, a spiteful Hitler might have demanded them back. An appeasing UK Govt, may have kow towed.

Madagascer was never meant to be a happy place for transported Jews, it was to be a SS Fiefdom, where the Jews were simply serfs. They would work and die there for their SS masters.

User avatar
Baltasar
Member
Posts: 4614
Joined: 21 Feb 2003, 16:56
Location: Germany

Re: Britain makes peace in 1940 - What happens to the Jews?

#24

Post by Baltasar » 22 Jan 2012, 15:06

sunbury2 wrote:Madagascer was never meant to be a happy place for transported Jews, it was to be a SS Fiefdom, where the Jews were simply serfs. They would work and die there for their SS masters.
Those few who would make it there alive, that is. I suspect that many if not most would perish on the way, being forced into ship bunks as overcrowded as their historical cattle trains. That and the harsh Atlantic weather, plus insufficient hygene and malnutrition would mean that chances for them to arrive alive would be slim to start with.

User avatar
Marcus
Member
Posts: 33963
Joined: 08 Mar 2002, 23:35
Location: Europe
Contact:

Re: Britain makes peace in 1940 - What happens to the Jews?

#25

Post by Marcus » 15 Feb 2012, 13:27

A post by michael mills containing insulting remarks against another member was removed.

/Marcus

michael mills
Member
Posts: 9000
Joined: 11 Mar 2002, 13:42
Location: Sydney, Australia

Re: Britain makes peace in 1940 - What happens to the Jews?

#26

Post by michael mills » 15 Feb 2012, 14:53

European Jewry would still be exterminated, nothing would change there. The Nazis saw the Slavs and the Jews as undermenschen and they would proceed with their plans to exterminate the Jews in Europe and decimate the Slavs so they were reduced to being serfs.
The above comment shows an insufficient knowledge of historical fact.

As of the beginning of the war, there were no German plans to exterminate Jews or Slavs or any other ethnic group. While certain groups were identified for summary execution, these were always politically defined, eg members of anti-German Polish nationalist organisations, or members of Communist Parties etc.

Even at the commencement of the invasion of the Soviet Union in 1941, the only Jews whose summary execution was mandated in orders issued to the German security forces were those in State and Party positions or in the Red Army.

Prior to the outbreak of war, the goal of the National Socialist German Government was to make Germany "Jew-free" by encouraging or compelling all Jews to emigrate, and to that end it entered into close collaboration with Zionist organisations, which had a complementary goal of encouragiung Jews to leave Europe and settle in Palestine.

After the outbreak of war, the German Government policy was extended to one of making all of Europe "Jew-free", and the collaboration with Zionist organisations continued, including the financing of illegal emigration to Palestine.

Toward the end of 1939, Eichmann, who was in charge of Jewish emigration, wrote two letters to the Soviet immigration authorities, asking them to allow the transport into the Soviet Union of all the Jewish population of the German-occupied part of Poland, under the agreement on exchange of populations that had been made as part of the German-Soviet Borders and Friendship Treaty of 28 September 1939. That shows that at that time the German Government had no intention of exterminating the Jews in its power, only of expelling them.

The Soviet Government declined Eichmann's request, on the grounds that it was obliged to accept only ethnic Belorussians and Ukrainians under the afore-mentioned agreement. That is why the Polish Jews could not be transferred to Soviet territory.

After the defeat of France, the German Government adopted the originally Polish idea of exiling all the Jews of Europe to Madagascar. That was a genuine plan, with both the German Foreign Office doing a lot of preparatory work on it. The only reason why it was not implemented was that the British Navy controlled the seas and shipping lanes, so as long as Britain remained in a state of war with Germany there was no conceivable way that four million European Jews could be shipped to Madagascar.

Accordingly, it is a logical conclusion that if Britain had made peace in 1940 there would have been no obstacle to the implementation of the Madagascar Plan. In fact, the German agencies working on the plan proposed that as part of a peace agreement between Germany and Britain, the latter should provide the shipping to transport the Jews to Madagascar, together with France.

Close analysis of the genesis of the physical destruction of the Jews under German control reveals that the crucial factor that brought it about was the German failure to defeat the Soviet Union, which frustrated the original plans for dealing with the large Jewish population of that country. Those original plans, as shown by German documents, provided for the concentration of the Soviet Jews in remote ruralk reservations, where they wouold be put to work in various branches of primary industry such as logging, pending their transfer out of Europe after the expected final German victory over the Soviet Union.

Those original plans could not be implemented due to the failure to defeat the Soviet Union, and mass killing was resorted to as a second-best solution.

If Britain had made peace in 1940, Germany would have had a much better chance of defeating the Soviet Union in 1941, since it could have concentrated its entire force against that country without having to divert some of it to sideshows in the Mediterranean area. Also, if Britain made peace, then it is entirely possible that there would have been no longer any obstacle to both France and Spain joining in the anti-Bolshevik "crusade".

Assuming that Germany defeated the Soviet Union, then there would have been nothing to prevent the implementation of various schemes to exile all the Jews from Europe. Some of the European Jews, those of Central and Western Europe, would have gone to Madagascar, while the East European Jews would have been transported across the Urals to Central Asia.

Since it is clear that the physical destruction of European Jewry resulted from the change in German fortunes from expected victory to impending defeat, then if that change had not occurred the physical destruction of the jews would not have occurred either.
3 Jews were sent to Auschwitz from the occupied British Channel Islands during the war.
They were citizens of Germany and Austria and hence subject to German law. Jewish Channel Islanders of British nationality were treated in the same way as other Channel Islanders, as enemy civilians under the protection of international law, and as such were not mistreated.
Britian might have been able to keep British Jews safe but could have been forced to send European refugee Jews back to Germany.
Why would Germany want them? The German aim was to get Jews out of Germany, not to let them back in.
Madagascer was never meant to be a happy place for transported Jews, it was to be a SS Fiefdom, where the Jews were simply serfs. They would work and die there for their SS masters.
Madagascar is not even a happy place for the Malagasies, most of whom live in the most abject poverty. Nevertheless, the population of Madagascar grew from 2.2 million in 1900 to 7.6 million in 1975, and today is estimated at close to 22 million. That sort of population growth shows that it is quite possible to live and thrive in Madagascar, albeit at a very low standard of living. There is no reason why Jews could not have lived and survived there.
Those few who would make it there alive, that is. I suspect that many if not most would perish on the way, being forced into ship bunks as overcrowded as their historical cattle trains. That and the harsh Atlantic weather, plus insufficient hygene and malnutrition would mean that chances for them to arrive alive would be slim to start with.
What hard evidence is there that conditions on board the ships would be of that nature?

The German Madagascar plan assumed that as part of the terms of peace with Britain, the latter country, together with France, would provide the shipping to transport the Jews to Madagascar. Accordingly, conditions on board the ships would be the responsibility of Britain and France.

User avatar
Andy H
Forum Staff
Posts: 15326
Joined: 12 Mar 2002, 21:51
Location: UK and USA

Re: Britain makes peace in 1940 - What happens to the Jews?

#27

Post by Andy H » 15 Feb 2012, 16:51

Can we please keep our posts within the confines of the OP, any not go off at disjunctive angles.

So please lets confine it to the possible fate of British Jewry. Obviously one can give indications of other policies on European Jewry but lets not end up discussing these specifics in detail, at the expense of the original question.

Regards

Andy H

User avatar
Baltasar
Member
Posts: 4614
Joined: 21 Feb 2003, 16:56
Location: Germany

Re: Britain makes peace in 1940 - What happens to the Jews?

#28

Post by Baltasar » 15 Feb 2012, 22:10

@ mills: You'll find the expression 'I suspect' in my posting. This should indicate that this only represents what I imagine would have happened. Since none of these ships actually did sail for Madagascar, we can but speculate. The closest thing which came to mind were the transports to the concentration camps.

I've read a bit about the Madagascar plan but haven't read anything particular about the logistics involved. Do you have any reliable sources for your statement in the regard of the delegation of transportation to the Allies?

michael mills
Member
Posts: 9000
Joined: 11 Mar 2002, 13:42
Location: Sydney, Australia

Re: Britain makes peace in 1940 - What happens to the Jews?

#29

Post by michael mills » 15 Feb 2012, 23:11

This is the question posed in the first post on this thread:
Assuming things went much worse for Britain in 1940 - the BEF captured at Dunkirk, Churchill doesnt become PM or whatever - and as a result Britain makes peace with Germany.

What happens to the Jews??

Will the Nazis execute the Madagaskar plan or will they try to exterminate them anyway?
That question was in no way limited to the likely fate of British Jews in the counterfactual situation of Britain making peace in 1940.

Since the question refers to the presumed implementation of the Madagascar Plan, it must logically be enquiring about the fate of all Jews under German control, since that plan was designed to apply to all European Jews, not only those of Britain.

Accordingly, it is no way a "disjunctive angle" to discuss the probable treatment of all of European Jewry in the case of a cessation of a state of war between Britain and Germany, and all that that would imply for Germany's strategic and economic situation.

michael mills
Member
Posts: 9000
Joined: 11 Mar 2002, 13:42
Location: Sydney, Australia

Re: Britain makes peace in 1940 - What happens to the Jews?

#30

Post by michael mills » 15 Feb 2012, 23:22

I've read a bit about the Madagascar plan but haven't read anything particular about the logistics involved. Do you have any reliable sources for your statement in the regard of the delegation of transportation to the Allies?
These are the books I have read on the Madagascar Plan, from which I derive my information:

1. Magnus Brechtken: "Madagaskar für die Juden : antisemitische Idee und politische Praxis 1885-1945" (München : Oldenbourg, 1998)

2. Hans Jansen: "Der Madagaskar-Plan : Die beabsichtigte Deportation der europäischen Juden nach Madagaskar" (München : Herbig, c1997)

Those books make it clear that the Madagascar Plan was real, and was intended to be implemented once the sea-lanes were opened after the cessation of war between Britain and Germany.

They also show that as Germany did not possess sufficient shipping of its own, Britain and France were to be required to provide the shipping to transport the Jews to their place of exile.

Locked

Return to “Holocaust & 20th Century War Crimes”