Britain makes peace in 1940 - What happens to the Jews?

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Gorque
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Re: Britain makes peace in 1940 - What happens to the Jews?

Post by Gorque » 26 Mar 2012 12:38

michael mills wrote:
BTW: The ghettoization of Poland's Jews began in 1939, which is some month's before the date of this thread's topic. Perhaps the ghetto's of 1939 Poland do not meet your definition of imprisonment but considering the mandatory requirements for Jews to reside in them and the consequences should they be found outside of them, from my perspective, Poland's ghettos sure come close to meeting the definition of a prison.
Gorque,

You should read the detailed analysis by the historian Christopher Browning of the ghettoisation of the Jews of German-occupied Poland. He concludes that they were a temporary measure, arising from the continuation of the war and the failure to achieve an immediate expulsion of the Jews of the German Zone of Occupation into the Soviet Zone, in the months after the conquest of Poland. The purpose of the ghettos was to warehouse the Jews until such time as a decision was made on what to do with them.

The historical fact is that the majority of the ghettos in occupied Poland, particularly the major ones, were created after the battle of Britain, and were a reaction to the failure to bring the war with Britain to a satisfactory conclusion. If that war had ended in the summer of 1940, allowing an orderly transfer of Jews out of Europe to proceed, it is most likely that the ghettos in Poland would never have been created.

Here is a list of ghettos in German-occupied Poland, giving the dates of their creation. You will see that the majority were created in 1940 and 1941:

.... snipped by Gorque

As you see, almost all the major ghettos were created after the failure to knock Britain out of the war. They were created in a situation where the war with Britain continued with all that that implied, especially the continuation of the blockade of German-occupied Europe. The preparations for Barbarossa also played a role in the creation of the Polish ghettos.

It is reasonable to conclude that if the state of war with Britain had been ended in the summer of 1940, there would have been no need to seal off the bulk of the Jewish population of Poland in closed ghettos.


Michael:

I'll have look into Mr. Browning's book. He usually presents a balanced view in his writings. Would you be so kind as to provide me with the title of his book?

Best regards,

Gorque

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Re: Britain makes peace in 1940 - What happens to the Jews?

Post by David Thompson » 26 Mar 2012 13:10

Christopher R. Browning, Before the "Final Solution": Nazi Ghettoization Policy in Poland 1940-41
http://deimos3.apple.com/WebObjects/Cor ... 526888.pdf

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Re: Britain makes peace in 1940 - What happens to the Jews?

Post by waldzee » 26 Mar 2012 13:11

michael mills wrote:Waldzee,

You seem to believe that my conclusions are not justified by the data that I present in support of them.

Perhaps you could provide a detailed analysis of how my conclusions are not supported by my data, rather than just a proclamation that they "do not feel right".

If you have hard data that invalidate my conclusion, please present it. And I mean hard data, based on a detailed and reasoned analysis of the development of the German Government's Jewish policy from 1933 to 1941, including an analysis of the objective factors that caused the German Government to make the decisions it did at the various stages in the development of its policy. Not vague feelings based on the perception that the German leaders were not Christian gentlemen.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Thanks= offer declined.
We debated these points so thoroughly, already, Michael, & I suspect any response from me would just be glossed over.
however, I did locate this :



Anti-Jewish Plans of the Nazis Published Before Their Rise to Power ( From the Jewish Virtual Library).
YOu may wish to review the Avalon collection, Michael- ( on line link below) the final solution, as advocated two decades before the Madagascar plan.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Do a Proper Job on the Jews!



There are various views on the ultimate aim and task of the German-National (deutsch-voelkisch) movement regarding the Jews. One believes that so-called explanatory work is all that is needed; the next only wants to "eliminate" the Jewish spirit from the "cultural" field; a third only from the economy, and a fourth has other aims again, and all the opinions become confused... Quite apart from this we consider that it is much more urgent and necessary that the local groups should seek to operate first of all on their home ground and to sweep away Ostjuden* and Jewish vermin in general with an iron broom....

The Ostjuden must be got rid of without delay, and ruthless measures must be taken immediately against all other Jews. Such measures might be, for instance, the immediate removal of Jews from all Government employment, newspaper offices, theaters, cinemas, etc.; in short, the Jew must be deprived of all possibilities to continue to make his disastrous influence felt. In order that the unemployed Semites cannot secretly undermine us and agitate against us, they should be placed in collecting camps....



Voelkischer Beobachter,

No. 20/34, March 10, 1920.
Form : http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jso ... iplan.html
Which shows that the NASDAP advocated a 'ruthlessw measures policy ' in the Spring of 1920.
Best wishes
Reg

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Gorque
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Re: Britain makes peace in 1940 - What happens to the Jews?

Post by Gorque » 26 Mar 2012 17:07

David Thompson wrote:Christopher R. Browning, Before the "Final Solution": Nazi Ghettoization Policy in Poland 1940-41
http://deimos3.apple.com/WebObjects/Cor ... 526888.pdf
Thank you :)

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Re: Britain makes peace in 1940 - What happens to the Jews?

Post by michael mills » 26 Mar 2012 21:55

Which shows that the NASDAP advocated a 'ruthlessw measures policy ' in the Spring of 1920.
Any reference to killing them?

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waldzee
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Re: Britain makes peace in 1940 - What happens to the Jews?

Post by waldzee » 26 Mar 2012 23:11

michael mills wrote:
Which shows that the NASDAP advocated a 'ruthlessw measures policy ' in the Spring of 1920.
Any reference to killing them?
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Mr Mills, the 'Avalon project ' is the collective work of the JVL onlne, reviewed for accuracy by the Harvard Law school.
Should you tiptoe into their files, you can read all the V-Beobacher & Die Sturmer you can handle!
Above was a copy that rather debunks the 'clean & fine until 1939' arguement...

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Re: Britain makes peace in 1940 - What happens to the Jews?

Post by michael mills » 27 Mar 2012 00:37

Any indication that the German Government had adopted a policy of killing?

Newspapers say all sorts of things. What matters is what the government decides.

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waldzee
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Re: Britain makes peace in 1940 - What happens to the Jews?

Post by waldzee » 27 Mar 2012 00:44

michael mills wrote:Any indication that the German Government had adopted a policy of killing?

Newspapers say all sorts of things. What matters is what the government decides.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Well the SA marching song:

when Jewish blood splashes from the knife
Hang the Jews, put them up against the wall
Heads are rolling, Jews are hollering

(The results of a survey conducted in the end of April 1934: http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jso ... songs.html

Reinland and Westfalia )

doen'st exactly use the word 'kill'
:roll: since this is , by my count ,the tenth time that I've invited you to sign up for scholar access, & you keep asking ME to extract 'references'...What is frightening you, Michael? (millions are curious :)
Until you deside to enroll,I believe I shall" put on my hat & go home", sir.....
Last edited by waldzee on 27 Mar 2012 04:10, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Britain makes peace in 1940 - What happens to the Jews?

Post by little grey rabbit » 27 Mar 2012 01:28

Source: The Central Archive for the History of the Jewish People, Jerusalem. Microfilm of CV Archives, Center for the Preservation of Historical Documentary Collection (OSOBI), Moscow. Fond. 721, File 47.

Its enough to make a whole generation of Holocaust academics tear their hair and weep. For decades they have carefully constructed their modified functionalist thesis on the grounds that is the best way to tie up all the evidence and still maintain an extermination narrative.

And at the first sign of trouble you bundled up their many thousands of pages, throw them in the bin and go the whole intentionalist hog.

When it comes down to it, I actually agree with you. If you genuinely think there were gas chambers, mass pyres, crematorium complexes - the whole kit caboodle, the only rational way to describe comprehend it is to assume that had been the intent all along. But whole armies of scholars have devoted years of their life to try and demonstrate the opposite.

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Re: Britain makes peace in 1940 - What happens to the Jews?

Post by michael mills » 27 Mar 2012 01:31

Again, what counted was the policy of the German Government, which was not determined by SA rowdies.

The SA leadership wanted all sorts of things. When their demands became too annoying to the National Socialist Government of Germany, they were suppressed.

The sort of bloodcurdling songs bellowed out by marching SA men served the purpose of the German Government in that they frightened the Jews and made them more willing to pull up stakes and leave Germany, which was the underlying aim of the German Government's Jewish policy.

Even those bloodcurdling lyrics refer to throwing the Jews out of the country, even sending them to Palestine.

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Re: Britain makes peace in 1940 - What happens to the Jews?

Post by David Thompson » 27 Mar 2012 04:10

Michael -- You wrote, in response to posts by Waldzee:
Any indication that the German Government had adopted a policy of killing?

Newspapers say all sorts of things. What matters is what the government decides.
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 4#p1686604

and
Again, what counted was the policy of the German Government, which was not determined by SA rowdies.
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 0#p1686610

You may have forgotten about the provisions of the Law to insure the unity of Party and State, 1 December 1933, recorded in the 1933 Reichsgesetzblatt, Part I, p. 1016, but I have not. Let me refresh your recollection with a quote from the text, which our readers can find at Nazi Conspiracy and Aggression vol. 3, US Government Printing Office, Washington (D.C.): 1946, at p. 978:
http://www.loc.gov/rr/frd/Military_Law/ ... iracy.html
TRANSLATION OF DOCUMENT 1395-PS

1933 REICHSGESETZBLATT, PART I, PAGE 1016, 1 Dec. 1933

Law to secure the unity of Party and State, 1 Dec. 1933

The Reich government has decided on the following law which is announced herewith :

Par. 1

1. After the victory of the National Socialist revolution, the National Socialist German Labor Party is the bearer of the concept of the German State and is inseparable from the state.

2. It is a corporation in public law. Its organization will be determined by the Fuehrer.

Par. 2

The deputy of the Fuehrer and the Chief of Staff of the SA will become members of the Reich government in order to insure close cooperation of the offices of the party and SA with the public authorities.

* * * * *

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Re: Britain makes peace in 1940 - What happens to the Jews?

Post by michael mills » 27 Mar 2012 04:23

Law to secure the unity of Party and State, 1 Dec. 1933

...................................................................................................

Par. 2

The deputy of the Fuehrer and the Chief of Staff of the SA will become members of the Reich government in order to insure close cooperation of the offices of the party and SA with the public authorities.
And how long did the Chief of Staff of the SA remain a member of the Reich Government?

I seem to recall that some six months later he received a rather abrupt dismissal from office, with a less-than-generous retirement package.

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Re: Britain makes peace in 1940 - What happens to the Jews?

Post by David Thompson » 27 Mar 2012 04:32

Michael -- You asked --
And how long did the Chief of Staff of the SA remain a member of the Reich Government?
Until the government collapsed in 1945, as you should know. While there was more than one chief of staff of the SA, the change didn't affect the anti-semitic policy, and I've never read that Ernst Röhm was shot for anti-semitism either. Would you like some links between the SA and Kristallnacht, which occurred after Röhm's murder? Note also that Waldzee's link refers to song dates from after Röhm's death, so let's not try to pass the bloodthirsty lyrics off as a Röhm-only phenomena.

And, at least as I read Waldzee's posts, he was talking about more than the SA, too, although you brushed his points off with a few one-liners. Our readers deserve better than this. Please try to provide it.

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Re: Britain makes peace in 1940 - What happens to the Jews?

Post by michael mills » 27 Mar 2012 06:08

Let's get serious again.

From the article by Christopher Browning, "Before the 'Final Solution': Nazi Ghettoization Policy in Poland (1940-41)":
In the neighboring General Government, a major economic conference was held
in June 1940. The economic planners concluded that to ensure a reliable and rational
use of Jewish labor, “it was necessary that the nomadicized Jews be settled in cities”
and that all cities in turn should erect work camps, concentration camps, and ghettos
“so that the Jews cannot move about freely.”15 This was as close as the General
Government ever came to establishing a uniform policy for ghettoization. However, it
was almost immediately nullified the following month when Frank ordered a halt to all
ghetto building, which was now deemed “for all practical purposes illusory” in view of
the impending deportation of Europe’s Jews to Madagascar
.
So, in July 1940, Governor-General Frank, a man close to Hitler who knew what the policy was at the highest levels, believed that the deportation of all European Jews, including those in German-occupied Poland, was about to start, and hence there was no need to continue with the ghettoisation of the Jewish population in the Generalgouvernment.

Since the deportation to Madagascar could only proceed once the war with Britain had concluded, Frank obviously believed that the end of the war was imminent, and the sealanes would be open once again.

But the deportation of the Jews to Madagascar did not eventuate, and the ghettoisation of the Jews in Poland continued. Why?

The reason is obvious; the war with Britain did not end, and peace was not restored.

Hence, Frank's order in July 1940 to cease building ghettos provides a clear and unequivocal answer to the question posed in this thread.

What would have happened to the Jews of Europe if Britain had made peace in 1940?

Answer: They would have been sent to Madagascar, as Governor-General Frank expected.

There can be no further quibbling about this; the meaning of the lyrics of SA marching songs and of early opinion pieces in newspapers become irrelevant in the light of Frank's revelation of German Government policy at the highest level in JUly 1940.

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Re: Britain makes peace in 1940 - What happens to the Jews?

Post by Sid Guttridge » 27 Mar 2012 15:47

Hi Michael,

".....nomadicized Jews....."?

To what does this refer?

Also, regarding "Frank ordered a halt to all ghetto building, which was now deemed “for all practical purposes illusory” in view of the impending deportation of Europe’s Jews to Madagascar."

It is unclear from this excerpt whether Frank actually said all of this, or whether Browning is himself attributing Frank's action to the Madagascar plan. Is the complete Frank quotation available?

Either way, the answer still looks to be "nothing good"!

Cheers,

Sid.

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