Britain makes peace in 1940 - What happens to the Jews?

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Re: Britain makes peace in 1940 - What happens to the Jews?

Post by wm » 27 Mar 2012 21:48

The Madagascar plan was unworkable but it seems they were willing to believe in its reality.
For example on July 26, 1940 Goebbels wrote in his diary (according to Irving's, "Goebbels. Mastermind of the Third Reich"), that Hitler revealed to him that his own preferred final solution was to deport all of Europe’s Jews after the war to Madagascar. And that will become a German protectorate under a German police governor.
In August 1940, he wrote that he and Hitler found they agreed that Europe’s Jews should all be shipped off to Madagascar.
On September 17, 1940 that Hitler informed him:
the Madagascar Plan, which has now been given the go-ahead, provides for about three and a half million of these to be shipped to Madagascar over approximately eighteen months after the war.
And then on Mar 7, 1942:
For the time being they are to be concentrated in the east [until] later; possibly an island like Madagascar can be assigned to them after the war. [...] Undoubtedly there will be a multitude of personal tragedies. But this is unavoidable.The situation now is ripe for a final settlement of the Jewish question.

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Re: Britain makes peace in 1940 - What happens to the Jews?

Post by michael mills » 27 Mar 2012 22:36

It is unclear from this excerpt whether Frank actually said all of this, or whether Browning is himself attributing Frank's action to the Madagascar plan. Is the complete Frank quotation available?
I am confident that Browning did not invent the connection, since I have references to Frank's order to stop ghetto construction in a number of histories.

Have a look here (page 16):

http://books.google.com.au/books?id=Ewn ... to&f=false

Or here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Madagascar_Plan
Most Nazi officials, especially the authorities of the General Government (which administered the rump remains of Poland) including Hans Frank, viewed the forced resettlement of 4,000,000 Jews to Madagascar as being infinitely more desirable than the heretofore piecemeal efforts at deportation into Poland. As of July 10, all such deportations were cancelled, and construction of the Warsaw ghetto was halted, since it appeared to be unnecessary.[2]

2.^ a b c d e f Kershaw, Ian. Hitler: 1936-1945: Nemesis. New York: Norton, 2000. pp.320-322
Or here (page 19):

http://books.google.com.au/books?id=L1O ... to&f=false

The source of Frank's order in July 1940 to cease ghetto construction in view of the Führer's decision to send all the Jews to Madagascar is apparently the Schön Report of 20 January 1941, recording previous events.

Another source:

http://history1900s.about.com/od/holoca ... plan_2.htm
The news of this new solution to the "Jewish question" spread. Hans Frank, governor-general of occupied Poland, was elated at the news. At a large party meeting in Krakow, Frank told the audience,

[blockquote shade="no"] As soon as sea communications permit the shipment of the Jews [laughter in the audience], they shall be shipped, piece by piece, man by man, woman by woman, girl by girl. I hope, gentlemen, you will not complain on that account [merriment in the hall].4

4. Hans Frank as quoted in Friedman, Roads to Extinction, 47.
Yet another:

http://www.holocaustresearchproject.org ... moval.html
Less than a year earlier on July 12, 1940 Hans Frank made the following comments on the Madagascar Plan

'Another very important point is the decision of the Fuehrer, which he made at my request, that there will be no more transports of Jews into the area of the Generalgouvernement.

As a general political observation I would like to state that it is planned to transport the whole pack of Jews ( Judensippschaft ) from the German Reich, the Generalgouvernement and the Protectorate, in the shortest conceivable time after peace has been made, to an African or American Colony.

Madagascar is being considered, to be ceded by France for this purpose. There will be ample room here for a few million Jews on an area of 500,000 sq. kms. I have tried to let the Jews in the Generalgouvernement also share in this advantage, of building up a new life on new land.

This has been accepted so that there should be a tremendous easing within sight..."
And another (page 408, right-hand column):

http://books.google.com.au/books?id=nPb ... to&f=false

The list goes on (pages 61-62):

http://books.google.com.au/books?id=-1f ... to&f=false

Is that enough?

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Re: Britain makes peace in 1940 - What happens to the Jews?

Post by michael mills » 27 Mar 2012 23:13

The Madagascar plan was unworkable ......
Only as long as Britain controlled the sealanes and could prevent movement out of Europe.

Once Britain had made peace, the sealanes would have been opened, and the transport of Jews to Madagascar could have commenced. As part of the peace settlement, Britain and France could have been required to provide logisitical support in the form of shipping, accommodation, food etc.

Before the war, one-third of the Jews in Poland, about one million persons, were supported by charity from Jewish organisation outside Poland, mainly in the United States. That charitable support could just as easily have been supplied to those same Jews relocated to Madagascar.

Settling four million Jews in Madagascar was no more unworkable than settling the same number in an undeveloped place like Palestine.

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Re: Britain makes peace in 1940 - What happens to the Jews?

Post by waldzee » 28 Mar 2012 05:34

michael mills wrote:Let's get serious again.

From the article by Christopher Browning, "Before the 'Final Solution': Nazi Ghettoization Policy in Poland (1940-41)":
In the neighboring General Government, a major economic conference was held
in June 1940. The economic planners concluded that to ensure a reliable and rational
use of Jewish labor, “it was necessary that the nomadicized Jews be settled in cities”
and that all cities in turn should erect work camps, concentration camps, and ghettos
“so that the Jews cannot move about freely.”15 This was as close as the General
Government ever came to establishing a uniform policy for ghettoization. However, it
was almost immediately nullified the following month when Frank ordered a halt to all
ghetto building, which was now deemed “for all practical purposes illusory” in view of
the impending deportation of Europe’s Jews to Madagascar
.
So, in July 1940, Governor-General Frank, a man close to Hitler who knew what the policy was at the highest levels, believed that the deportation of all European Jews, including those in German-occupied Poland, was about to start, and hence there was no need to continue with the ghettoisation of the Jewish population in the Generalgouvernment.

Since the deportation to Madagascar could only proceed once the war with Britain had concluded, Frank obviously believed that the end of the war was imminent, and the sealanes would be open once again.

But the deportation of the Jews to Madagascar did not eventuate, and the ghettoisation of the Jews in Poland continued. Why?

The reason is obvious; the war with Britain did not end, and peace was not restored.

Hence, Frank's order in July 1940 to cease building ghettos provides a clear and unequivocal answer to the question posed in this thread.

What would have happened to the Jews of Europe if Britain had made peace in 1940?

Answer: They would have been sent to Madagascar, as Governor-General Frank expected.

There can be no further quibbling about this; the meaning of the lyrics of SA marching songs and of early opinion pieces in newspapers become irrelevant in the light of Frank's revelation of German Government policy at the highest level in JUly 1940.
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I agree with the serious side, Michael. The Voelkischer Beobachter,
was the official outlet for the NASDAP, & after 1933 for the German state.
Hardly 'Just a newspaper'.
Have you obtained your Scholars pass to the Avalon Project?

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Re: Britain makes peace in 1940 - What happens to the Jews?

Post by wm » 28 Mar 2012 07:35

michael mills wrote:Once Britain had made peace, the sealanes would have been opened, and the transport of Jews to Madagascar could have commenced. As part of the peace settlement, Britain and France could have been required to provide logisitical support in the form of shipping, accommodation, food etc.
We know that the peace with France had no such provisions and a peace with Britain would not have because the peace would be on Britain's terms not German's.
The costs would be in tens of billions of today's dollars, Germany did not have that kind of money.
michael mills wrote: Before the war, one-third of the Jews in Poland, about one million persons, were supported by charity from Jewish organisation outside Poland, mainly in the United States. That charitable support could just as easily have been supplied to those same Jews relocated to Madagascar.
This so called support was nothing more than feel-good spare change sent by the American Jews so the Polish Jews could buy candies for their children.
The island was unsuitable for colonization, at least according to the Polish commission which conducted a survey of conditions in Madagascar in the thirties, so in fact the plan would be a Holocaust in disguise. The majority of the Jews would not survive there without billions of dollars support every year for decades.

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Re: Britain makes peace in 1940 - What happens to the Jews?

Post by michael mills » 28 Mar 2012 23:47

The island was unsuitable for colonization, at least according to the Polish commission which conducted a survey of conditions in Madagascar in the thirties, so in fact the plan would be a Holocaust in disguise.
The report of the Polish commission was utterly meaningless, since it did not carry out any investigation whatever, simply relying on what it was told by the French administration.

The existing French colonists were opposed to the idea of handing Madagascar over to Poland for the settlement of Polish Jews and surplus Polish peasants, so naturally they gave an exaggeratedly negative description to the Polish commission in the hope of discouraging them, in which endeavour they were entirely successful.

In fact, the existing French colonists were able to live on Madagascar quite comfortably, without being struck down by disease and without dying in large numbers. The highlands of Madagascar have a sub-tropical climate similar to that of the Kenyan Highlands, entirley suited to European settlement.

At the end of the 19th Century there were proposals by British Jewish leaders such as Norman Bentwich to settle Jews in the Kenyan Highlands. Nobody protested that such a settlement would lead to Jews dying in large numbers. If it was feasible to settle Jews in the Kenyan Highlands, it was just as feasible to settle them in the highlands of Madagascar.
The majority of the Jews would not survive there without billions of dollars support every year for decades
Perhaps. But in case wm has not noticed, the present Jewish State has received billions of dollars support every year for decades, mainly from the United States Government and there is no sign of that support ending. There is no reason why that support could not have gone to a Jewish settlement in Madagascar.

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Re: Britain makes peace in 1940 - What happens to the Jews?

Post by David Thompson » 29 Mar 2012 01:14

Michael -- You wrote of the "Madagascar plan":
The report of the Polish commission was utterly meaningless, since it did not carry out any investigation whatever, simply relying on what it was told by the French administration.
Now that you mention it, I've never seen a German investigation at all. Perhaps the German plan wasn't even as serious as the Polish one.

You also wrote:
Perhaps. But in case wm has not noticed, the present Jewish State has received billions of dollars support every year for decades, mainly from the United States Government and there is no sign of that support ending. There is no reason why that support could not have gone to a Jewish settlement in Madagascar.
Perhaps. But that occurred after all those European Jews were killed by the NS-regime between 1941 and 1945. We haven't seen any evidence here that the Nazis even went as far as to generate a workable plan for the forced emigration to Madagascar, much less try to line up foreign financial support for the supposed scheme.

In other words, the supposed German plan -- or fairy tale for foreign consumption -- looks a lot like a cover story or justification for the subsequent murders. Perhaps it was proposed precisely because it was impossible. Why, exactly, should our readers take it seriously?

If you have sourced information on the specifics of the Nazi "Madagascar Plan," please cite to it so our readers don't have to go through the dance of the seven veils to find it or get the information from you. As always, original source documents are preferred.

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Re: Britain makes peace in 1940 - What happens to the Jews?

Post by michael mills » 29 Mar 2012 03:20

Why, exactly, should our readers take it seriously?
For the same reason that they should take seriously any plan made by the German Government whose existence is documented.

For example, Governor-General Frank's service diary records him telling his Cabinet on 10 July 1940 that the Führer had decreed that all the Jews of Europe, including those of occupied Poland, would be sent to an African colony, probably Madagascar, after the end of the war.

There is no reason to believe that Frank was telling the members of his Cabinet a fairy tale. It is more rational to accept that he was revealing to them a genuine intention of the German Government.

There were a number of German Government plans that never eventuated because the course of the war prevented their implementation. But that does not mean that they were not serious.

Furthermore, a number of respected historians such as Christopher Browning and Hans Mommsen take the Madagascar Plan entirely seriously.

I have already named two books read by me that deal in great detail with the Madagascar Plan. My remarks about the plan, for example that the Polish mission did not carry out any real investigation of the situation in Madagascar but relied on what it was told by the French administration, are drawn from those books.

Here they are again:

1. Magnus Brechtken, "Madagaskar für die Juden : antisemitische Idee und politische Praxis 1885-1945"

This book deals with the whole concept of settling Jews in Madagascar, including the Polish proposals.

2. Hans Jansen , "Der Madagaskar-Plan : die beabsichtigte Deportation der europäischen Juden nach Madagaskar"

This book deals more specifically and in detail with the German deportation plan.

For those Forum members who do not have access to those books, or do not have time to read them, there is this Wikipedia article:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Madagascar_Plan
Last edited by michael mills on 29 Mar 2012 03:59, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Britain makes peace in 1940 - What happens to the Jews?

Post by michael mills » 29 Mar 2012 03:37

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jso ... ascar.html



http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jso ... 12983.html
In 1926 and 1927, both Poland and Japan investigated Madagascar and proposed the island as a possible solution to their overpopulation problem; both dismissed the idea as not feasible. In 1937, a new Polish commission was sent to Madagascar to determine if Jews could be induced to settle there. Leon Alter, the director of *HICEM in Warsaw, and Salmon Dyk, an agricultural engineer from Tel Aviv, took part in the mission. The assessments of the commission's director Major M. Lepecki and of Alter differed widely, but it was obvious to all that the area was generally inhospitable to Europeans and that there was a serious danger of potential settlers contracting endemic tropical diseases. This point was emphasized by the French governor-general of the island Marcel Olivier in his statements and writings opposing the proposal.

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Re: Britain makes peace in 1940 - What happens to the Jews?

Post by David Thompson » 29 Mar 2012 03:56

Michael -- You wrote:
I have already named two books read by me that deal in great detail with the Madagascar Plan. My remarks about the plan, for example that the Polish mission did not carry out any real investigation of the situation in Madagascar but relied on what it was told by the French administration, are drawn from those books.
Yes, but I'm talking about the German plan, not the Polish one. I read the Jewish Virtual Library articles, and Rademacher's letter, but based upon what we've seen here, the NS-regime's Madagascar resettlement plan never got past the fantasy stage.

The fact that Dr. Frank, Governor-General of occupied Poland, briefly postponed construction plans for Jewish ghettos, is indicative of nothing. It might indicate that he believed that there was a Madagascar plan, or it might indicate that he wanted more time to negotiate kickbacks from the company or companies involved in the ghetto construction projects. It seems improbable to me, and probably to many of our readers, that the personal beliefs of a bureaucrat can be intuited on the basis of official bureaucratic announcements.

What I'd like to see here are the concrete steps the NS-regime took to put the Madagascar plan into operation. What can you offer our readers on this point?

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Re: Britain makes peace in 1940 - What happens to the Jews?

Post by michael mills » 29 Mar 2012 04:55

What I'd like to see here are the concrete steps the NS-regime took to put the Madagascar plan into operation. What can you offer our readers on this point?
What constitutes a concrete step?

The process of planning had certainly started, in both the German Foreign Office (Rademacher) and the RSHA (Eichmann).

But the fundamental concept was that the transportation of the Jews of German-controlled Europe would not take place until after the end of the war with Britain. As long as that end was not in sight, there was not much point in going beyond the conceptual planning stage, ie drawing up the broad outlines of the scope of the plan.

For a brief moment at the end of June and early July there were hints that Britain might soon ask for terms, and it was probably those hints that caused Frank to get excited about the prospect that the more than one million Jews in the Generalgouvernment would soon be taken off his hands by way of emigration to an African colony.

However, Britain chose to go on fighting, which meant that an end to the war could only be achieved by militarily defeating Britain in some way, which would take months at least. Accordingly, planning for the mass transportation to Madagascar was put on hold, and eventually discontinued when it proved impossible to force Britain to surrender.

But the point of this counterfactual is that, if Britain had accepted terms for peace in 1940, there would have been no obstacle to continuing with the production of detailed plans for the transportation of Jews to Madagascar, and eventually proceeding to their implementation.

The fact that the Madagascar Plan never got beyond the conceptual planning stage does not indicate that it was never serious. It simply shows that the course of the war made it unfeasible to continue with the planning, at first temporarily and then permanently.
It might indicate that he believed that there was a Madagascar plan, or it might indicate that he wanted more time to negotiate kickbacks from the company or companies involved in the ghetto construction projects.
I think we should stick to documented facts rather than flights of fancy. Historians such as Christopher Browning have concluded that the temporary halt to the construction of ghettos in occupied Poland was due to the expectation that the mass emigration of Jews would commence in the near future, and hence there was no point in using resources to construct ghettos.

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There was no plan

Post by waldzee » 29 Mar 2012 05:03

Sorry , Michael- since the plan would have ben a major part of the 'peace negotiations, it would have been detailed. There is no record of this detail work. None. Just some cynical throw away lines ..
Sometimes, we want to believe in the Parsival myth so much that we forget the Third Reich was an 'ape simulation, a dark echo ' of the second Reich & the Hapsburg double crown.

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Re: Britain makes peace in 1940 - What happens to the Jews?

Post by michael mills » 29 Mar 2012 07:09

Respected historians such as Christopher Browning and Hans Mommsen consider that the Madagascar Plan was a genuine policy option that the German Government was considering in the summer of 1940, but which did not eventuate because the continuing war with Britain rendered its implementation impossible.

Some members of this Forum appear to want to believe that it was not genuine, just some sort of cover story.

No prizes for guessing who I think more credible.

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Re: Britain makes peace in 1940 - What happens to the Jews?

Post by waldzee » 29 Mar 2012 08:33

michael mills wrote:Respected historians such as Christopher Browning and Hans Mommsen consider that the Madagascar Plan was a genuine policy option that the German Government was considering in the summer of 1940, but which did not eventuate because the continuing war with Britain rendered its implementation impossible.

Some members of this Forum appear to want to believe that it was not genuine, just some sort of cover story.

No prizes for guessing who I think more credible.
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Mike, the same people that bought you the Rumbala death pits & cover up, which appears to have gotten more planning, whipped up this back of envelope puppy.

I should have clarified. Plan as in Credible Homeland
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jso ... 12983.html

Not 'Plan' as in pack 'em like rats on coffin ships & dump the survivors.
Oh, there WAS the second...
as of July 3 1940 http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jso ... ascar.html
\ Rademacher had it down to a one page memo. I've nopw psoted these links a few times for you, Mike.Drop me a note when you get around to reading them...

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Re: Britain makes peace in 1940 - What happens to the Jews?

Post by little grey rabbit » 29 Mar 2012 08:56

My understanding that ghettoisation was always seen as a step to realising the resettlement plan.

Did the Poles and the Czechs undergo extensive planning when they expelled the Germans? Does that mean it didn't take place.
At this point I don't think Vichy France had even agreed to relinquish Madagascar.

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