Britain makes peace in 1940 - What happens to the Jews?

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Terry Duncan
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Re: Britain makes peace in 1940 - What happens to the Jews?

Post by Terry Duncan » 05 Apr 2012 18:09

The impracticability of the Madagascar Plan was not the reason for the commencement of the physical extermination of the Jews under German control.
Over the course of this thread you have maintained that there would have been no genocide if Britain and then Russia had been defeated, though there was ample time for the Nazis to attempt to secure passage across neutral nations for these unwanted people. I have asked if the Nazi government ever made any approaches to other states in an attempt to facilitate the Jews and other undesirables to leave. So far you have not answered this, presumably because no such approaches were made?

What about the Gypsies? Were they to be exiled or was genocide always contemplated for them?

The following question also got no reply;
In early July 1940, Frank ordered a halt to the construction of new ghettos on the grounds that they were no longer necessary, given that the transportation of the Jews of the Generalgouvernement out of Europe would shortly begin.
The Generalgouvernement was not the only authority in the German controlled parts of Poland, what had the other areas decided to do?
Is that because the other areas did not agree with Frank? Citing only one area leader seems unusual if all followed the same policies.
But there is no reason why one should not believe in the existence of a pre-existing intention on Hitler's part to kill all Jews, right from the time he first came to power, or perhaps even earlier, if that is what one finds more emotionally satisfying.
It has nothing to do with anything being emotionally satisfying, nor have I said I agree with this line of thought entirely. I believe that killing was certainly postulated very early on, and was almost certainly discussed long before it was put into practice. I do not believe the Nazis went from a policy of exiling Jews and undesirables to distant regions to one of killing them all suddenly on an impulse, it was probably something being seriously considered by important people for maybe two years prior to being implimented.
There is a good deal of disagreement among historians on that question, although the majority seem to have concluded that mass-killing was not the original intention of the German Government.
Almost certainly not in 1933, but such an end was probably under consideration for all Jews that remained within the Nazi sphere of control by 1939, and I would say the decision was finalized by the time Germany invaded Russia. After that the Jews would survive only as long as it took the Nazi machine to spare enough people and materiel to put genocide into practice.

panzerplatten
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Re: Britain makes peace in 1940 - What happens to the Jews?

Post by panzerplatten » 05 Apr 2012 18:36

I agree terry, I suppose the nearest to an approach to getting countries to take the german/Austrian Jews was hitlers statement on the evian conference that if other countries wanted to take them he'd help them leave!
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%89vian_Conference
Mark.

Sid Guttridge
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Re: Britain makes peace in 1940 - What happens to the Jews?

Post by Sid Guttridge » 05 Apr 2012 19:33

Hi Michael,

It is precisely because of possible contradictions in the time line you proposed that I asked my questions.

For example, as I pointed out, one report says that in early August an instruction was issued directing displaced Jews to the ghetto site.

October is the month of the formal declaration of the Warsaw Ghetto, but it would appear that it may already have been the concentration site for Jews for some months before that.

Like so much else to do with the so-called "Holocaust", developments appear to have been a continuum running from petty restrictions to genocide. The seeds of the latter lay in the former, but it was not the inevitable outcome.

Cheers,

Sid.

David Thompson
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Re: Britain makes peace in 1940 - What happens to the Jews?

Post by David Thompson » 06 Apr 2012 20:25

An assortment of today's posts containing personal remarks about other posters were removed by this moderator - DT.

Gentlemen -- We're not interested in hosting the spring fights here. Be civil or be gone.

michael mills
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Re: Britain makes peace in 1940 - What happens to the Jews?

Post by michael mills » 06 Apr 2012 23:59

Almost certainly not in 1933, but such an end was probably under consideration for all Jews that remained within the Nazi sphere of control by 1939, and I would say the decision was finalized by the time Germany invaded Russia. After that the Jews would survive only as long as it took the Nazi machine to spare enough people and materiel to put genocide into practice.
The orders issued to German security forces before the invasion do not suggest that a decision to kill all Jews under German control had already been made, since those orders mandated the summary execution of only specified groups of Jews, namely those in State and Party positions (ie members of the Soviet bureaucracy) and those in the Red Army.

The Stahlecker letter of 6 August 1941 to Lohse indicates a German intention to concentrate Soviet Jews (the majority who had not been executed under the afore-mentioned orders) in remote rural reservations, where they would be used for labour in primary industries such as forestry and grow their own food, before being expelled from Europe after the end of the war.

In December 1941, there was an apparent agreement between Hitler and Himmler to equate Soviet Jews with partisans and exterminate them as such. That agreement would have been unnecessary if a comprehensive extermination decision had been made prior to the beginning of the invasion of the Soviet Union.

The treatment of German Jews deported into conquered Soviet territory in late 1941 and early 1942 does not suggest that a global extermination decision had yet been made. Those deported to Minsk in November 1941 were all taken into the ghetto and not killed.

The first convoy of German Jews to arrive at Riga early on the morning of Sunday 30 November 1941 was slaughtered by Jeckeln's men, but that was an excess contrary to orders, for which Jeckeln was severely reprimanded by Himmler. The following convoys were all taken into the Riga Ghetto or Jumpravmuiza (Junfernhof) camp.

The extermination of the Jews under German control began as a series of limited local killing actions, driven by the objective conditions of the war situation, such as problems of accommodation and food supply, or of rear security in conquered Soviet territory. Those local killing actions rapidly escalated in intensity and frequency, until they merged into a comprehensive massacre to which the great majority of Jews under German control fell victim.
What about the Gypsies? Were they to be exiled or was genocide always contemplated for them?
There does not appear to have been any unified German Government policy in relation to the various quasi-nomadic groups to which the name "Gypsies" was given.

Himmler regarded certain Romany tribes as being of pure Aryan stock due to their putative Indian origin, and preserved them from persecution.

On the other hand, he seems to have regarded Gypsies of "mixed" origin as being criminal by nature, and hence deserving of destruction, along with all other criminal groups. Perhaps he considered that their original Aryan "purity" had been corrupted through miscegenation with members of the criminal under-class in the various European countries where they settled.

In any case, where Gypsies were sent to concentration camps and held as prisoners or killed, they were classified as "anti-Socials", along with non-Gypsy "anti-Social" elements.

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Marcus
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Re: Britain makes peace in 1940 - What happens to the Jews?

Post by Marcus » 18 Dec 2012 15:24

A opinion post by drakle was removed.

The thread has gone far off track and I am closing it.

/Marcus

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