Britain makes peace in 1940 - What happens to the Jews?

Discussions on the Holocaust and 20th Century War Crimes. Note that Holocaust denial is not allowed. Hosted by David Thompson.
Locked
User avatar
Terry Duncan
Forum Staff
Posts: 6270
Joined: 13 Jun 2008, 23:54
Location: Kent

Re: Britain makes peace in 1940 - What happens to the Jews?

#61

Post by Terry Duncan » 19 Feb 2012, 16:45

Terry, you need to brush up your African history and geography.
Not at all, please read my comment properly, I said;
Places like this did not obtain the name 'The White Man's Grave' for lack of reason.
Clearly it says 'like this' and not that the name appled directly to this area.

The entire history of white settlers in Aftrica indicates a far higher mortality rate than in Europe, and curiously there is no magic teleport to take shipping from Suez or Dakar to Madagascar to avoid a long journey through these areas.
If European Jews could settle in such a god-forsaken place as Palestine was at the beginning of the 20th Century, there is no reason why they could not settle in Madagascar.
The maps posted by Jon show that the health problems in the two areas are not the same and that the latter is a far greater health risk area.
I have already addressed the issue of material assistance for the Jews arriving in Madagascar in one of my earlier posts. No doubt they would receive aid from the wealthy Jewish community of the United States, in the same way as the early Zionist settlers in Ottoman Palestine received aid from Jewish organisations that enabled them to survive and prosper.
It is not a satisfactory excuse. Airily suggesting 'oh the Jews in America will supply them with enough aid' is no proof it will happen, let alone on any scale sufficient to avoid a major loss of life. It might do, but it is not a certainty.
The only Jews who were on starvation or semi-starvation rations in 1940 were those of German-occupied Poland.
In 1940 is that not the most dense population of Jews in any area under German control? Are you saying the Germans would not ship them?
Photographs taken in the Warsaw Ghetto in the summer of 1941 (not official propaganda, but private photos taken by a German soldier) show a population that appears adequately fed, and definitely not starving, although some malnorished beggars appear.
You could take photos in any city on Earth and you will only ever capture a fraction of the people living there, and quite often the worst health cases are not out wandering the streets but inside and out of sight.
The German authorities had allowed Jewish organisations in the United States to provide aid to their racial brethren in occupied Poland, so there is no reason to believe that they would not have permitted similar aid to be provided to Jews on the voyage to Madagascar and after their arrival.
They may well do, but this is on a quite different scale, probably one that is beyond the ability of a single grouping to achieve, and would need the power and organisation of a state behind it to work.

michael mills
Member
Posts: 8999
Joined: 11 Mar 2002, 13:42
Location: Sydney, Australia

Re: Britain makes peace in 1940 - What happens to the Jews?

#62

Post by michael mills » 20 Feb 2012, 03:43

The maps posted by Jon show that the health problems in the two areas are not the same and that the latter is a far greater health risk area.
Has it occurred to you that the public-health status of Israel today is vastly different from that of Ottoman Palestine in 1900?

At the beginning of the 20th Century, malaria was a big problem in Palestine, as it was in all Mediterranean countries. The problem was solved by large-scale drainage works, which eliminated the swamps where the mosquitos bred. The same solution as that achieved by Mussolini's government in Italy with the draining of the Pontine Marshes.

An example is provided by the modern Israeli town of Hadera, on the coast north of Tel Aviv. The name "Hadera" is derived from the Arabic "Khadra", meaning "green", which name was given to the area because in the 19th century it was a malarial swamp, resulting from the blocking of the mouth of a small river.

Nobody could live in that location during the summer because of the malaria. The only inhabitants were nomads who pastured their sheep and goats in the swamp during the winter, when there were no mosquitos.

The Ottoman Government had tried to settle Circassian refugees from Russia on the site, since it was potentially good arable land, but most of them died of malaria and the survivors moved away.

In 1891, a group of Zionist settlers from the Russian Empire, members of the organisation "Choveve Tsiyyon" ("Lovers of Zion"), tried to establish a settlement in the swampland. They too were defeated by the malaria; of 540 settlers, 210 died of the disease.

Fortunately the French Jewish philanthropist Baron Edmond de Rothschild came to the rescue by providing the capital to fund modern drainage works. As a labour force, he hired thousands of Egyptian workers, who toiled in the swamps digging drainage channels. The Egyptians died like flies from the malaria before the works were completed, but they gave their lives in a noble cause, creating a living space for the Chosen People.

Thus, the malaria problem which had for a long time prevented settlement on the site, was solved by a combination of European Jewish capital and expendable Arab labour. The beneficiaries were Jewish settlers from Europe.

Whatever health problems existed in Madagascar could nop doubt have been solved in a similar way, a combination of Jewish capital from the United States (and also the confiscated wealth of European Jewry) and local labour recruited for the purpose.

Malaria is still a problem today in Madagsacar, but only in the lowlands. The highlands, where the Jews would have settled, is free of it, except in low-lying valleys. Whatever swamps existed in the areas of Jewish settlement could have been eliminated by the same method as used at Hadera.

Terry, if you have a closer look at the map posted by JonS of countries where malaria is endemic, you will see that it contains a note saying that malaria is only a problem in certain parts of those countries. That is the case in Madagascar today, where malaria is a problem in low-lying areas.

Terry, have you ever paused to think why those cute medieval towns in Italy are all built on the top of hills? It was because the lowlands and river valleys were malarial, and it was impossible for a settled population to live there; the only inhabitants of the plains (such as those surrounding Rome) were nomadic shepherds who pastured their flocks there in the winter and moved to the malaria-free hills in the summer.


David Thompson
Forum Staff
Posts: 23722
Joined: 20 Jul 2002, 20:52
Location: USA

Re: Britain makes peace in 1940 - What happens to the Jews?

#63

Post by David Thompson » 20 Feb 2012, 06:23

Let's get back on topic, gentleman -- this fantasy thread and its hypothetical outcome.

Sid Guttridge
Member
Posts: 10158
Joined: 12 Jun 2008, 12:19

Re: Britain makes peace in 1940 - What happens to the Jews?

#64

Post by Sid Guttridge » 20 Feb 2012, 14:41

Hi Michael.

Nice try.

Of course I "can tell the great difference between Jews losing their citizenship and jobs and property, and being slaughtered en masse."

However, I can also see nothing positive in "Jews losing their citizenship and jobs and property" or, as you put it, being "progressively deprive(d) ..... of their citizenship, jobs and property, and finally drive(n) ..... out of the country."

Can you?

Isn't there any positive outcome you can offer the Jews, rather than being forcibly dispossessed, displaced or "slaughtered en masse"?

So my original post still stands:

One thing stands out about this thread - the only argument is over what degree of misery and misfortune was to have compulsorily befallen the Jews left under Nazi control.

No discussion here about Jews being restored to their jobs and property and accepted as full citizens of a Nazi-dominated Europe.

So, however disinterested the British may or may not have been in the fate of continental Jews, for the latter no good would come of Britain making peace in 1940.


Cheers,

Sid.

User avatar
Terry Duncan
Forum Staff
Posts: 6270
Joined: 13 Jun 2008, 23:54
Location: Kent

Re: Britain makes peace in 1940 - What happens to the Jews?

#65

Post by Terry Duncan » 20 Feb 2012, 16:30

Has it occurred to you that the public-health status of Israel today is vastly different from that of Ottoman Palestine in 1900?
Yes. It has also occurred that the health issues in Madagascar were worse at the time and still are.
Terry, have you ever paused to think why those cute medieval towns in Italy are all built on the top of hills?
Again, I know. It was also for defence, like so many towns all over Europe starting with the earliest hill forts.
Malaria is still a problem today in Madagsacar, but only in the lowlands. The highlands, where the Jews would have settled, is free of it, except in low-lying valleys. Whatever swamps existed in the areas of Jewish settlement could have been eliminated by the same method as used at Hadera.
Other than the fact there is no time to do this adequately for a small settlement you might have had a point. The proposal you put forward is to dump around 80,000 per month in Madagascar, many of whom are in ill-health, and keep up this rate for three or four years. Even today it would be hard for a state organised project to build a town a month even with all the machinery and labour at hand to start with, let alone in an area where it would be reasonable for 15%-20% of Europeans to contract some form of illness very soon after arrival. These would obviously not all be fatal, but it would impose a further drain on labour resources needed to not only build housing but also to construct drainage projects. Then we have the food problem, where is it to come from, how, and who is paying? Dumping a million people on an island and expecting a crop large enough to feed them a year later, by which time another million will be on their way, is asking for problems.

This sort of thing takes years to put in place, it wouldnt be possible to simply ship people as soon as possible in these numbers without a high risk of many deaths. The closest thing I can see that resembles this plan is the Armenian Genocide from WWI - where even if not deliberate, it may well have been deliberate but lets argue a best case scenario here - and that is hardly a good omen.

steverodgers801
Member
Posts: 1147
Joined: 13 Aug 2011, 19:02

Re: Britain makes peace in 1940 - What happens to the Jews?

#66

Post by steverodgers801 » 20 Feb 2012, 16:59

The British were allowing Jews to settle in Palestine and the numbers jumped in the 30's of course, but due to pressure from the Arabs, the immigration stopped. The majority of German Jews had already left. There were a lot of Jews caught in France and Poland, but the vast majority who were to be killed came from the yet unattacked Soviet Union.

michael mills
Member
Posts: 8999
Joined: 11 Mar 2002, 13:42
Location: Sydney, Australia

Re: Britain makes peace in 1940 - What happens to the Jews?

#67

Post by michael mills » 21 Feb 2012, 07:52

All this quibbling about possible mortality on the ships carrying Jews to Madagascar and/or after arrival there is obscuring the essential question asked in this counterfactual.

The historical reality is that the Madagascar Plan did not proceed because Germany failed to force Britain to make peace and as a result the selanes to Madagscar remained firmnly under British control.

As a result, the German Government turned to other ways of solving the "Jewish Problem", and the outcome was that between 1941 and 1945 a minimum of four million European Jews perished.

In the counterfactual at issue here, Britain making peace in 1940, it is reasonably certain that the Madagascar Plan would have been implemented in some form. As with all plans, the implementation is often not exactly what the plan foresaw. Quite possibly there would have been a certain mortality in transit and after arrival.

However, we can be at least 90% certain that if most of the Jews of German-occupied Europe had been transported to Madagascar following a British surrender, there would have been nowhere near the mortality that occurred in historical reality. Most probably not even 10% of the historically real mortality.

In that respect, the fate of the great majority of the Jews of German-occupied Europe would have been a lot better than it was in historical reality. They would have lost their citizenship of European countries, and their property. They would have been reduced to living in poverty, scratching a living as subsistence agriculturists or cattle-herders, but at least they would have been alive.

The ideology of Labour Zionism proclaimed that the traditional Jewish way of life in Eastern Europe was parasitical, and that being forced to work with one's own hands on the land would be good for the Jew's soul. Such redemption of the Jews' souls might just as well have been achieved in Madagascar as in Palestine.

michael mills
Member
Posts: 8999
Joined: 11 Mar 2002, 13:42
Location: Sydney, Australia

Re: Britain makes peace in 1940 - What happens to the Jews?

#68

Post by michael mills » 21 Feb 2012, 08:07

There were a lot of Jews caught in France and Poland, but the vast majority who were to be killed came from the yet unattacked Soviet Union.
What is being forgotten here is that in this counterfactual, there would have been no reason for Barbarossa.

Hitler decided to attack the Soviet Union because Britain was still holding out. As long as Germany remained at war with Britain in the west, there was a option for Stalin to join Britain and attack Germany in the East. Hitler knew that that was what Churchill was hpoing for, so he decided to eliminate Soviet military power before that option could be taken up.

If Britain had made peace in 1940, the pressure would have been off Germany, and there would have been no short-term danger of being attacked by the Soviet Union. Accordingly Hitler would not have needed to attack the Soviet Union immediately.

Most probably, Hitler would have used the fact that Germany could now deploy its entire military strength against the Soviet Union to threaten Stalin, and force him to make concessions. At the very least Hitler would have demanded that Stalin hand over the Baltic States, Belorussia, Ukraine, possible alos the Caucasus region, all areas that Germany had controlled in 1918.

Stalin might have chosen to fight, but in that case Germany would most probably have prevailed, since it could have brought its entire power to bear against the Red Army, and the Soviet Union would not have received aid from Britain, and probably not from the United States either. Furthermore, Japan might well have attacked in the East, since as a result of the German-British peace it would not have had the same need to use military force to gain control over the oil of Burma and the Netherlands Easr Indies.

Or else Stalin might have chosen to give in, in order to retain power of a smaller domain, consisting of the territory east of the Urals. Half the Soviet Union is better than none.

In the above scenarios, the territories now in German possession could have rendered "Jew-free" by simply expelling all Jews east into the territory remaining to a rump Russia. There would have been no need to kill them.

Remember that the slaughter of millions of Jews resulted from the failure of Germany to defeat Britain and the Soviet Union, which left them with no other options for solving the "Jewish Problem".

User avatar
Johaaanan
Member
Posts: 50
Joined: 24 May 2011, 01:52

Re: Britain makes peace in 1940 - What happens to the Jews?

#69

Post by Johaaanan » 21 Feb 2012, 10:23

michael mills wrote: The only Jews who were on starvation or semi-starvation rations in 1940 were those of German-occupied Poland. No other Jews within the German area of influence in Europe were on starvation rations. And in German-occupied Poland the official rations, at a starvation level, were supplemented by food aid coming from private charitable organisations in the United States by agreement with the German authorities.

A part of the Jewish population of German-occupied Poland was suffering greatly from malnutrition, but the majority were not. Photographs taken in the Warsaw Ghetto in the summer of 1941 (not official propaganda, but private photos taken by a German soldier) show a population that appears adequately fed, and definitely not starving, although some malnorished beggars appear.
Hi,

I take it that you might be reffering to his photos ( Heinz Joest, a Wehrmacht member, on 19 Sep 1941, making a birthday tour through the ghetto )? Just a quick comment on one of those photos ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Childwarsawghetto.jpg ):
Have you noticed how the other children pass by the starving ( most probably dying by the look of it ) one, in a completely normal and calm way, with quite ordinary expression at their faces?
This photo always strikes me to the core, it's one of the most horrible and most painfull scenes I've seen in my life, and I've seen plenty.

Respect,
Ivan
Last edited by Dieter Zinke on 29 Mar 2012, 11:03, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Wehrmacht - not Wermacht
ubi me prejaka reč

panzerplatten
Member
Posts: 405
Joined: 19 Oct 2011, 23:13

Re: Britain makes peace in 1940 - What happens to the Jews?

#70

Post by panzerplatten » 21 Feb 2012, 12:39

Agree Ivan,
It's an horrific image of man's inhumanity to his fellow beings.
Regards mark

User avatar
waldzee
Banned
Posts: 1422
Joined: 03 Feb 2012, 04:44
Location: Calgary Alberta

Re: Britain makes peace in 1940 - What happens to the Jews?

#71

Post by waldzee » 21 Feb 2012, 20:29

michael mills wrote:
There were a lot of Jews caught in France and Poland, but the vast majority who were to be killed came from the yet unattacked Soviet Union.
What is being forgotten here is that in this counterfactual, there would have been no reason for Barbarossa.

Hitler decided to attack the Soviet Union because Britain was still holding out. As long as Germany remained at war with Britain in the west, there was a option for Stalin to join Britain and attack Germany in the East. Hitler knew that that was what Churchill was hpoing for, so he decided to eliminate Soviet military power before that option could be taken up.

If Britain had made peace in 1940, the pressure would have been off Germany, and there would have been no short-term danger of being attacked by the Soviet Union. Accordingly Hitler would not have needed to attack the Soviet Union immediately.

Most probably, Hitler would have used the fact that Germany could now deploy its entire military strength against the Soviet Union to threaten Stalin, and force him to make concessions. At the very least Hitler would have demanded that Stalin hand over the Baltic States, Belorussia, Ukraine, possible alos the Caucasus region, all areas that Germany had controlled in 1918.

Stalin might have chosen to fight, but in that case Germany would most probably have prevailed, since it could have brought its entire power to bear against the Red Army, and the Soviet Union would not have received aid from Britain, and probably not from the United States either. Furthermore, Japan might well have attacked in the East, since as a result of the German-British peace it would not have had the same need to use military force to gain control over the oil of Burma and the Netherlands Easr Indies.

Or else Stalin might have chosen to give in, in order to retain power of a smaller domain, consisting of the territory east of the Urals. Half the Soviet Union is better than none.

In the above scenarios, the territories now in German possession could have rendered "Jew-free" by simply expelling all Jews east into the territory remaining to a rump Russia. There would have been no need to kill them.

Remember that the slaughter of millions of Jews resulted from the failure of Germany to defeat Britain and the Soviet Union, which left them with no other options for solving the "Jewish Problem".
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
WIth all due respect to your scholarship, Michel, ps refer to the current discussion on Germany & Oil.
In a perfect world, your scenario may have occurred. In the summer of 1941, Germany was running out of oil -& behind on its credit payments to the Soviet Union.

steverodgers801
Member
Posts: 1147
Joined: 13 Aug 2011, 19:02

Re: Britain makes peace in 1940 - What happens to the Jews?

#72

Post by steverodgers801 » 21 Feb 2012, 20:44

The percentage of troops that were not used against the Soviets was minimal and would not have tipped the scales, in the first year. Attacking the Soviet Union was Hitlers reason for being. Everything Hitler did was to set up a war with the Soviets.

David Thompson
Forum Staff
Posts: 23722
Joined: 20 Jul 2002, 20:52
Location: USA

Re: Britain makes peace in 1940 - What happens to the Jews?

#73

Post by David Thompson » 21 Feb 2012, 21:00

Michael -- You wrote:
Remember that the slaughter of millions of Jews resulted from the failure of Germany to defeat Britain and the Soviet Union, which left them with no other options for solving the "Jewish Problem".
No, the slaughter of millions of Jews resulted from the demented fantasies of Germany's dictator. Since the notion of a "Jewish problem" was essentially irrational, there's no assurance that victory would have moderated Hitler. The idea of expulsion might just as readily been seen as Hitler's reaction to the existence of enemies, inside and outside Germany. Were it not for the opposition, it's just as plausible to assume Hitler would have dealt with the Jews on the "bacillus" theory he explained to Adm. Horthy at Klessheim.

User avatar
BillHermann
Member
Posts: 742
Joined: 04 Jan 2012, 16:35
Location: Authie

Re: Britain makes peace in 1940 - What happens to the Jews?

#74

Post by BillHermann » 21 Feb 2012, 22:33

The question at hand possibly has a legitimate place however the logic of some of the answers leaves me a little stunned. It seems as if the question it self is loaded with more than the hypothetical.

This thread and the did the Germans have any pre war intentions regarding the jews seems to bring out the worst in some. As stated before the intentions were there back during the writings of mein kampf even if there wasn't a black and white order given and to somehow assume if their was peace with Britain that the Jews would have got off easier is absurd.

I also alway question the strange support of the beginnings of the holocaust being the resettlement and theft of property being some how okay but we stop at the killings. The seizure of property and forced relocation is a crime in itself. And to those of you who are trivializing it would have words if your government did that to you. The holocaust is not just the deaths.

The act was comitted by the Nazis and SS and it is pretty obvious that it would have happend in some form even if there was peace with Britain.

User avatar
waldzee
Banned
Posts: 1422
Joined: 03 Feb 2012, 04:44
Location: Calgary Alberta

Re: Britain makes peace in 1940 - What happens to the Jews?

#75

Post by waldzee » 21 Feb 2012, 23:29

BillHermann wrote:The question at hand possibly has a legitimate place however the logic of some of the answers leaves me a little stunned. It seems as if the question it self is loaded with more than the hypothetical.

This thread and the did the Germans have any pre war intentions regarding the jews seems to bring out the worst in some. As stated before the intentions were there back during the writings of mein kampf even if there wasn't a black and white order given and to somehow assume if their was peace with Britain that the Jews would have got off easier is absurd.

I also alway question the strange support of the beginnings of the holocaust being the resettlement and theft of property being some how okay but we stop at the killings. The seizure of property and forced relocation is a crime in itself. And to those of you who are trivializing it would have words if your government did that to you. The holocaust is not just the deaths.

The act was comitted by the Nazis and SS and it is pretty obvious that it would have happend in some form even if there was peace with Britain.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
My ancestors are SwartzeeDeutsch. The Black Sea Germans suffered the tender mercies of Lenin; - we were the last to surrender to the Soviet Union. (The Crimea, 1921.)We also suffered ravages of Stalin, who declared us an ‘incurable criminal people’ in 1943.

At a Unitarian gathering where support of the Palestinian right of return was the ‘petition of the day.’ I pointed out that Israel was the sole modern example of a State founded without net displacement of people. The good Unitarians were unaware that the Arab states evicted over 785,000 Jews after 1949.

If it helps, remember that there once was a Germany that over 12,000 German Jewish soldiers volunteered & died for, from 1914-18. Perhaps that culture has risen again. Walter Rathenau, Albert Ballin,& six hundred thousand others who saw themselves as German& Jewish, & who led that dynamic Golden Empire that exploded on the world from 1870 to 1914.


SEPTEMBER 1, 1939
by W.H. Auden

(Auden: A poet for our times)



I sit in one of the dives
On Fifty-second Street
Uncertain and afraid
As the clever hopes expire
Of a low dishonest decade:
Waves of anger and fear
Circulate over the bright
And darkened lands of the earth,
Obsessing our private lives;
The unmentionable odour of death
Offends the September night.

Accurate scholarship can
Unearth the whole offence
From Luther until now
That has driven a culture mad,
Find what occurred at Linz,
What huge imago made
A psychopathic god:
I and the public know
What all schoolchildren learn,
Those to whom evil is done
Do evil in return.....


In 48 years (1870 to 1918) Germany went from Underdog to the Worlds' leading nation, to the Worlds' Phariah.
The bittersweet part was that the Jews of Germany believed in the second Reich & its' future.
http://www.jbuff.com/c113000.htm

Goodness, 100,000 fighting men out of a population of 580,000. Over 12,000 deaths in combat. Higher numbers than the " Regular Germans.*

If Jewish ties to Germany are ever cut, then perhaps Auden's 'Vast Imago" wins..

Locked

Return to “Holocaust & 20th Century War Crimes”