German Colonialism: Race, the Holocaust, and Postwar Germany

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Treve
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Re: German Colonialism: Race, the Holocaust, and Postwar Ger

Post by Treve » 08 Aug 2012 10:48

Thanks for the links George Lepre. It is a pity many of those have not been translated into English.

These books appear to elicit considerable hostility on this forum and accusation of being 'proto-Bolsehvik' and akin to 'communist historiography' which is of concern as it is directed at specialists working in the field. They can be criticized - and are via reviews - but some of the statements are very radical and populist. I agree that the first book in question appears most promising and balanced offering as it does the various contending points of view as stated in the review: 'While some scholars go so far as to posit a direct link between the two incidents, others stress the dissimilarities between colonial and Nazi violence'. Perhaps the possibility of extending German guilt beyond Auschwitz in whole or in part elicits such a response challenging as it does our conventional understanding of that period.

South
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Re: German Colonialism: Race, the Holocaust, and Postwar Ger

Post by South » 09 Aug 2012 10:20

Good morning Karstenh 83 / Karsten,

Re: "colonialism is a crime...";

You've presented some valuable points but the above quote is not one of them.

Colonialism was an aspect of the imperial system. There were various methods used to establish colonies......fully accepting that some of the methods involved organized criminal activity within the usual import of this expression.

There were also tangents to colonialism such as treaty ports and extraterritoriality.

All these institutions and their mechanical applications were not "criminal". Did not the parties to the many colonial ventures address the confronting issues as political matters and not criminal?!

Recall the recent transfer of the British crown colony of Hong Kong and the leased (Please don't laugh) New Territories section. The transfer was a political matter and treated by both parties as such. Criminal codes were not involved for reasons that should be obvious.


Warm regards,

Bob

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Attrition
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Re: German Colonialism: Race, the Holocaust, and Postwar Ger

Post by Attrition » 09 Aug 2012 11:01

Colonialism is the name given to the processes of government imposed outside the political boundaries of the perpetrators' state. How can that not be a crime when the state is the vehicle of oppression in the metrolpole? I think your examples were those of diplomacy which is not necessarily criminal.

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Re: German Colonialism: Race, the Holocaust, and Postwar Ger

Post by danebrog » 09 Aug 2012 11:03

@ Treve
These books appear to elicit considerable hostility on this forum and accusation of being 'proto-Bolsehvik' and akin to 'communist historiography'
Really thought to make unmistakable clear what exactly was meant when explained (with example!) what reminds of 'communist historiography'
Please read my post once more and carefully - as this kind of quoting is out of context and has nothing to to with MY intention/posting
I cannot criticize books before I have read them - neither I want nor I did in this case :wink:

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Re: German Colonialism: Race, the Holocaust, and Postwar Ger

Post by South » 10 Aug 2012 09:09

Good morning Attrition,

I explained that all colonial acquisitions were not crimes because of the basic agreement of international relations as per the era. Diplomacy, like law (jurisprudence), are sub-categories of politics. To say otherwise, such as by introducing the word "crime" into the international relations equation, will see other themes introduced, such as "sin" and the downstream missionaries entering the scene.

When the Dutch acquired their Caribbean colonies, did not the locals experience more relief than oppression?

I'm aware that the evil (criminal?) French introduced Pasteurization along with the guillotine into their colonies but the locals did rely more on the benefits of the French presence than the evils. Where where the grandchildren of the local political establishment educated ?

The US Virgin Islands - quasi colonies - ...Americans deplore empire builders...also presented a mixed picture.

Gibraltar is a different category. It was a magnet serving as a liferaft of hope to those trying to get there. Was this not the experience also seen in Hong Kong and Macao, Portuguese China ?

The political lexicon has a term "footstep ballots".

Look at the entire historical picture and not only the crimes - and worse - .

Meanwhile, back at the Commonwealth games.......


Warm regards,

Bob

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Attrition
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Re: German Colonialism: Race, the Holocaust, and Postwar Ger

Post by Attrition » 10 Aug 2012 09:18

Coercion is a crime.

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Re: German Colonialism: Race, the Holocaust, and Postwar Ger

Post by George Lepre » 15 Sep 2012 18:45

danebrog wrote:Uwe Schulte-Vahrendorff for example wrote a Book about Lettow-Vorbeck and (far too often to be accidental) used citations in a clearly constructed context to prove his own prejudiced thesis about LV ;-)
THESE "Authors" do a really bad service for any objective discussion - and this actually reminds in some aspects to communist historiography with it´s single-minded interpretation of facts
Hi all -

This thread has been dormant for a while but there is a new development.

Those who know the German publishing house Schoeningh are aware that it publishes works that are of the highest quality. The scholarship is outstanding by any standard.

Recently, Schoenigh published a new biography of Paul von Lettow-Vorbeck. The author, Dr. Michels, wrote a book about Germans in the French Foreign Legion that received rave reviews in the press. If his earlier work is anything to go by, member "danebrog" is in for a treat. Here's the link:

http://www.schoeningh.de/katalog/titel/ ... 370-9.html

Best regards,

George

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Re: German Colonialism: Race, the Holocaust, and Postwar Ger

Post by billburns » 15 Sep 2012 21:13

Attrition wrote:Coercion is a crime.
depends on your definition of coercion. This is starting to read like a Libertarian primer disguised as a historical interest group. Wanna gripe about "statists", "coercion" and "morality"? go to the von Mises site and leave history to the history buffs.

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Attrition
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Re: German Colonialism: Race, the Holocaust, and Postwar Ger

Post by Attrition » 15 Sep 2012 21:22

Anarchism actually.

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Re: German Colonialism: Race, the Holocaust, and Postwar Ger

Post by David Thompson » 15 Sep 2012 22:22

This thread lacks focus. What do the posters want to discuss here -- colonialism and war crimes law, German colonial repression and its relevance or irrelevance to the holocaust, or something else?

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waldzee
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Re: German Colonialism: Race, the Holocaust, and Postwar Ger

Post by waldzee » 16 Sep 2012 04:46


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danebrog
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Re: German Colonialism: Race, the Holocaust, and Postwar Ger

Post by danebrog » 18 Oct 2012 14:09

one month too late, but...
George Lepre wrote: Recently, Schoenigh published a new biography of Paul von Lettow-Vorbeck. The author, Dr. Michels, wrote a book about Germans in the French Foreign Legion that received rave reviews in the press. If his earlier work is anything to go by, member "danebrog" is in for a treat.
The quality of Michels book is out of the question - thats what I call objectively, substantive criticism in the best sense

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Re: German Colonialism: Race, the Holocaust, and Postwar Ger

Post by ErichvN » 17 Dec 2012 04:53

Attrition wrote:"Experiment" isn't a word I'd use, "crime" fits better. I think that study of Europe and its settler offshoots and their crimes ouside Europe (such as the invention of concentration camps and death marches by Andrew Jackson) can shed much light on the practice of extermination and its connexion to the processes of rule in the metropole. I suspect for example that the relative peace in the northern hemisphere since 1945 is dependent on permanent war in the southern.

I find Crime to be a bit extreme description, and I should point out that every European country had its own approach to Imperialism. The German Empire was based on the trading states of the old Hanseatic League (many German states had been members) and the Prussian trading Empire (the Imperial Black white and red was a combination of the League's and Prussia's nation colors). Most of the German colonies were based on earlier trading outposts and treaties with natives.

In addition German colonialism was more based off of industrializing the natives for trade purposes than in setting up true colonies, most German colonies had only a few German businessmen and engineers and all the rest were natives.

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Attrition
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Re: German Colonialism: Race, the Holocaust, and Postwar Ger

Post by Attrition » 17 Dec 2012 12:41

I'd be interested to see examples of Euro-Americans industrialising "natives", rather than plundering them by de-industrialisation, punitive terms of trade and military repression.

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Re: German Colonialism: Race, the Holocaust, and Postwar Ger

Post by ErichvN » 12 Jan 2013 04:35

Attrition wrote:I'd be interested to see examples of Euro-Americans industrialising "natives", rather than plundering them by de-industrialisation, punitive terms of trade and military repression.
With all due respect all one has to do is serious research, into the histories of a few of the major empires and one can find examples. For a start by the nineteen thirties most of the major empires had started to push their colonies into greater economic independence with the eventual goal of giving them full or at least local autonomy. Also it should be pointed out that almost all of the German colonial troops and police were native recruits making "military repression" as you describe it quite implausible.

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