Croatian Ustashi victims pictures

[LuftStuka]

You have o be kidding me. Theres no way that 50.000 people were killed at bleiburg

Isn’t this against the rules Marcus, as I understand? Isn’t denying Bleiburg as denying Holocaust?


Don’t know not convinced those picks are for real too many inconsistencies in them that seem postwar. You have any proof that those pictures are actually form “French man”

[Marcus]

You have o be kidding me. Theres no way that 50.000 people were killed at bleiburg

Isn’t this against the rules Marcus, as I understand? Isn’t denying Bleiburg as denying Holocaust?

He did not deny the event, "only" the number 50.000.

/Marcus

[Michael Miller]

Serb.Frw.~

The number "50,000" may indeed be a fabrication. Suffice it to say, horrific atrocities were committed by all sides in the Balkans.

I'm no photographic expert, but if I see something dubious, I will comment on it. The "dagger" and "the bowl" appear to have been painted in after the fact. The "victim" looks like another Ustashi youth (it's not entirely clear from the picture, but he COULD be wearing the same uniform as his "tormentors", and he does not seem too bothered- if his expression is any gauge- about having his throat slashed).

The "Ustashi" decapitating a person is a member of the Karstwehr units of the Waffen-SS. Not that I'm an expert on THAT either, but I've studied the Axis long enough to know the difference between Ustashi and Waffen-SS uniforms and insignia.

The site you've referenced is unreliable from a historical research standpoint. It is based more on anger and less on fact (though again I concede that the NDH Government and those who served it were bloodthirsty bastards who murdered hundreds of thousands of innocent people).

I say that countless Serbs, Croats, Slovenes, and just about every other ethnic group in Yugoslavia (be they Orthodox Christian, Roman Catholic, or Muslim) committed acts of unspeakably heartless brutality, conduct I once hoped came to an end in 1945 but which began anew in 1991 (as "Ethnic Cleansing", practiced by Serbs against those they deemed "subhuman").

Regards,
~ Mike Miller

[Serbisches-Freiwilliger]

As for the site, i only put the link here so that you can see the picts. I guess that there are a lot of innacurates at this site but i've read quite a few books about the ustashi crimes (foreign and Serbian) and saw the same pictures.
I didnt say that there were not crimes on all three sides in 1941-1945 but ... In croatia a tottal 3000 civilians killed by chetniks (a figure i got from a croatian site dealt by chetniks crimes in croatia) is not such a huge figure as 700.000.

As for Slovens, i think that they have no crimes in their past, esspecially in ww2.

"as "Ethnic Cleansing", practiced by Serbs against those they deemed "subhuman"). "

I cant belive you are so naive. You are acting as the puppet on their string. Foreign media made Serbian crimes as big as you think. The trouth is that Croatians and Muslims did as much if not more crimes then the Serbs did. We have the most refugees, the most territory lost, etc. Serbian people was affraid to live in such a bosnia which resambled to NDH. What did you expect us to do?

I cant talk to you anymore about this, its pointless. Mabey you should read a bit more about Serbian history and then we can talk. You are too brainwashed by this western media which knows nothing.

I guess you also support the war in Iraq, huh?

[Marcus]

The war in Iraq and the former Yugoslavia (90's version) is off topic in this section, so let's get back on topic.

/Marcus

[Marcus]

A post by Michael Mills was moved to a new thread.

/Marcus

[HS]

As for the site, i only put the link here so that you can see the picts. I guess that there are a lot of innacurates at this site but i've read quite a few books about the ustashi crimes (foreign and Serbian) and saw the same pictures.
I didnt say that there were not crimes on all three sides in 1941-1945 but ... In croatia a tottal 3000 civilians killed by chetniks (a figure i got from a croatian site dealt by chetniks crimes in croatia) is not such a huge figure as 700.000.

As for Slovens, i think that they have no crimes in their past, esspecially in ww2.

"as "Ethnic Cleansing", practiced by Serbs against those they deemed "subhuman"). "

I cant belive you are so naive. You are acting as the puppet on their string. Foreign media made Serbian crimes as big as you think. The trouth is that Croatians and Muslims did as much if not more crimes then the Serbs did. We have the most refugees, the most territory lost, etc. Serbian people was affraid to live in such a bosnia which resambled to NDH. What did you expect us to do?

I cant talk to you anymore about this, its pointless. Mabey you should read a bit more about Serbian history and then we can talk. You are too brainwashed by this western media which knows nothing.

I guess you also support the war in Iraq, huh?

Serbishe guy ,

Problem with your assesment and views on this topic is that its nothing more but familiar PROPAGANDA pushed by usual pro Serb factors.
This 700,000 killed Serbs by Ustashe in WW2 Croatia has been discredited.

C. Michael McAdams ( a specialist in Croatian studies and is Director of the University of San Francisco's Regional Center) in his recent book Croatia: Myth and Reality says following:

"The exact number of war victims in Yugoslavia during World War II may never be known due to fifty years of intentional disinformation by the Yugoslavian and Serbian governments, Serbian exile groups, and others. However, it is likely that approximately one million people of all nationalities died of war-related causes in all of Yugoslavia during World War II and that as many as 125,000 Serbs died of war-related causes in Croatia during the War."

I advise you to look up his book so that some of this misconnceptions can become a bit more clear.

Check out following link for more information :
http://mirror.veus.hr/myth/wwtwo.html

[alsaco]

In fact the history of the wars, they were multiple, in the Balkans, between 1939 and 1947 remains to be written.

We have only propaganda papers on the subject. And yougoslav hisyorians are only beginning to express historical debates.
The fact that the Tito regime had to build up an official truth, and did not allow fre discussions on the period is certainly largely responsible, but the complexity of the matter is such that serious reflexions are necessary.

There is no clear study of the italian occupation, and of the effects of the 1943 capitulation. German reports on operations are obscured by the participation of local groups, which moved from one side to the other for particular and often local motives. Partizans, Tchetniks, and other local groups had no fixed composition, and some of them followed a person more than an objective. It appears that even in the names given to groups you can detect discrepancies not explicited, the whites being called greens by some commentators and vice versa.

I would certainly appreciate any discussion on the subject.
But please, not to promote one or another. Just to clarify facts, solve problems and try to explain tendancies. We in the West do in fact know nothing. We are ready to learn from our yougoslav collegues.

We however know that this period was full of hate, crime and atrocities. Therefore do not consider necessary to add salt on the wounds, but try to bring explanations permitting to heal and bring peace.

[Roberto]

In R.J. Rummel’s book Democide: Nazi Genocide and Mass Murder, Nazi general Lothar Rendulic is quoted as follows, after a book called Genocide in Satellite Croatia, 1941-1945: A Record of Racial and Religious Persecutions and Massacres, by Edmond Paris, translated by Lois Perkins, published by The American Institute for Balkan Affairs, Chicago, in 1961:

While German troops were still in several places in Croatia, the Croatians began a beastly persecution of the Orthodox (Serbs). At this time at least a half million people were killed. An unbelievable governing mentality was responsible, as I learned in August 1943 when I received the answer to a question of mine from a government functionary in the circle of the chief of state. When I said that I could not at all understand how it was possible, in spite of all the hatred, to kill half a million people, he answered: ‘Half a million is libelous. No more than 200,000 were killed.’ Against this type of thinking ... one can do nothing with arguments. During the period of my command, signs appeared of a new persecution of the Orthodox. That persecution caused me no end of trouble and I finally had to put a stop to it with energetic measures and threats of force.

[MaPen]

The picture of the "Ustashi" decapitating someone with an axe are indeed Karstwehr troops in the village of Krnice, Slovenia, on July 1944.

The poor guy on the picture is one of the two partisans Karstjäger captured, tortured and beheaded on that day. There is at least one more picture from that even I know of.

best

[LuftStuka]

Seams to me that the point of this thread was to provoke and spread propaganda. Now that it has backfired Serbisches-Freiwilliger
refuses to replay

Go figure


PS:This may sound ignorant but a bit confused inset Serbia a Republic not Kingdom? What Kingdom you talking about (in Serbisches-Freiwilliger's
Location bar it states Serbian Kingdom)? If you can elaborate would be great thx. I need educating

[Serbisches-Freiwilliger]

I was never afraid of answering, is just that im studying for the univeristy sign in exam (and i dont have as much money on my internet account as you do, so i can come here only a few times in a week).

But...

Serbishe guy ,

Problem with your assesment and views on this topic is that its nothing more but familiar PROPAGANDA pushed by usual pro Serb factors.
This 700,000 killed Serbs by Ustashe in WW2 Croatia has been discredited.

C. Michael McAdams ( a specialist in Croatian studies and is Director of the University of San Francisco's Regional Center) in his recent book Croatia: Myth and Reality says following:

-----"The exact number of war victims in Yugoslavia during World War II may never be known due to fifty years of intentional disinformation by the Yugoslavian and Serbian governments, Serbian exile groups, and others. However, it is likely that approximately one million people of all nationalities died of war-related causes in all of Yugoslavia during World War II and that as many as 125,000 Serbs died of war-related causes in Croatia during the War."

I advise you to look up his book so that some of this misconnceptions can become a bit more clear.

Check out following link for more information :
http://mirror.veus.hr/myth/wwtwo.html



Yes, yes i've read it a few years ago. Propaganda, thats all i can say about that. But whats interesting is that suddenly you foreigners know more about ustashi crimes than i do, even though i lost half of my family in Croatia. My great-grandfather was murdered in Bosnia by the ustashis in 1941. My family had to flee the area, just to survive. It was a villige neer Kulen Vakuf. Today, you have no more Serbs living there.
Thats my mothers side of the family. My fathers side family lived in a vilige in Croatia, Lika to be precised. I bear the last name as same as the name of the village. Anyway, the village was burned in 1941. by the ustashi, massacred, and my family fled (a little bit earlyer that is). It was a pure Serbian villige and it was burned to the ground. Nothing left.
And now you are telling me that my ancestors are lyers? That they are the agressors and not the victims?
I think im in this matter better then you.

I have a few books, but unfortunatly i dont have enough time to retype it here. You can clearly see the number of Serbs living in NDH, before the war. And then after the war. 1.000.000 people fled or died during the war.
Consult your Enciklopedia Britanica and see what do they say about the nuber of victims. Surely, they do not lie.



------In fact the history of the wars, they were multiple, in the Balkans, between 1939 and 1947 remains to be written.

We have only propaganda papers on the subject. And yougoslav hisyorians are only beginning to express historical debates.
The fact that the Tito regime had to build up an official truth, and did not allow fre discussions on the period is certainly largely responsible, but the complexity of the matter is such that serious reflexions are necessary.

There is no clear study of the italian occupation, and of the effects of the 1943 capitulation. German reports on operations are obscured by the participation of local groups, which moved from one side to the other for particular and often local motives. Partizans, Tchetniks, and other local groups had no fixed composition, and some of them followed a person more than an objective. It appears that even in the names given to groups you can detect discrepancies not explicited, the whites being called greens by some commentators and vice versa.

I would certainly appreciate any discussion on the subject.
But please, not to promote one or another. Just to clarify facts, solve problems and try to explain tendancies. We in the West do in fact know nothing. We are ready to learn from our yougoslav collegues.

We however know that this period was full of hate, crime and atrocities. Therefore do not consider necessary to add salt on the wounds, but try to bring explanations permitting to heal and bring peace.-----


I agree with this, more or less...

Oh, yes i would also like to mention something that would be interesting to our Italian friends on this forum. Am sure you can find books on this subject. Did you know that Croats expelled about 300.000 Italians from Istra and Damacia? Thats interesting you must admit. I'm sure you can find more about this. It just fell on my mind.


Ok, here are a few quotes for you pleasure:



In papers of security agency Reich for Heirich Himler (date 10. April 1942.) says:
"number of orthodox which the Croatians massacred and killed is about 300 000" (IV/D/4
department R SHA (Gestapo), PA/AA Burro RAM Kroatien 1941/42, paper 442-449)

Josp Hirshberger, Jew from Budapest, secretary of CK KP Hungary (communist party)
(date 14. october) sad this: (this man was a prisoner in jasenovac and managed to escape
with five other people) "Ustashi claims that about 200 000 Serbs, Jews and gypsy's were
killed in Gradina, in Mala and jablanica about 40000, in Ustica 40000 gypsys"
(Archives OS, NOP, k. 868, registration no. 24/2)

Herman Nojbaher sad this in autumn 1943. "if leader of the ustashi claim that million
Serbs were slaughtered, including children, women and old man, then it is a show off. Because
of the reports that we have received number of slaughtered is about three quarter of a
million"
(V. Kazimirovic "German general in Zagreb" Kragujevac - Beograd 1996., page 99)

In one report (date 6. December 1943.) fon Horstenau speeks of Luburic as a butcher and
great sadist, and says that by Luburics order in Stara Gradiska about 80000 people were
killed, Jasenovac 120000, and other camps 20000 people
(Archives VII, Na, London s.306079-80 and 306069-70)

My translation, so there could be errors. Check it out.



Oh, yes and:

---------Seams to me that the point of this thread was to provoke and spread propaganda. Now that it has backfired Serbisches-Freiwilliger
refuses to replay

Go figure


PS:This may sound ignorant but a bit confused inset Serbia a Republic not Kingdom? What Kingdom you talking about (in Serbisches-Freiwilliger's
Location bar it states Serbian Kingdom)? If you can elaborate would be great thx. I need educating---------


Serbia is a republic for the moment yes. You must understand first, that monarhy was overthrown against the will of the people in 1945.
So, im hoping, in a few years, there could be a referendum in Serbia, a vote, for - against monarhy. Today, many people support monarhy.
I hope you'll see it in a few years.

Im not here to post proplagada. Its not false, it may seem false due to my english, but i assure you its not.


If there anything that you are not clear with, please ask me (Ustashis, Chetniks, Serbian Voulunteer Corps, Slovenian Chetniks, Partisans...). I'll be more then happy to reply.

[Marcus]

Serbisches-Freiwilliger,

When replying, please use the forums quote feature, that makes the discussions a lot easier to follow, thanks.

Either click the when replying or do it manually:

Code: Select all

[quote="Serbisches-Freiwilliger"]text[/quote]

becomes

text

Code: Select all

[quote]text[/quote]

becomes

text

/Marcus

[HS]

I was never afraid of answering, is just that im studying for the univeristy sign in exam (and i dont have as much money on my internet account as you do, so i can come here only a few times in a week).

But...

Serbishe guy ,

Problem with your assesment and views on this topic is that its nothing more but familiar PROPAGANDA pushed by usual pro Serb factors.
This 700,000 killed Serbs by Ustashe in WW2 Croatia has been discredited.

C. Michael McAdams ( a specialist in Croatian studies and is Director of the University of San Francisco's Regional Center) in his recent book Croatia: Myth and Reality says following:

-----"The exact number of war victims in Yugoslavia during World War II may never be known due to fifty years of intentional disinformation by the Yugoslavian and Serbian governments, Serbian exile groups, and others. However, it is likely that approximately one million people of all nationalities died of war-related causes in all of Yugoslavia during World War II and that as many as 125,000 Serbs died of war-related causes in Croatia during the War."

I advise you to look up his book so that some of this misconnceptions can become a bit more clear.

Check out following link for more information :
http://mirror.veus.hr/myth/wwtwo.html



Yes, yes i've read it a few years ago. Propaganda, thats all i can say about that..
But whats interesting is that suddenly you foreigners know more about ustashi crimes than i do, even though i lost half of my family in Croatia. My great-grandfather was murdered in Bosnia by the ustashis in 1941. My family had to flee the area, just to survive. It was a villige neer Kulen Vakuf. Today, you have no more Serbs living there.
Thats my mothers side of the family. My fathers side family lived in a vilige in Croatia, Lika to be precised. I bear the last name as same as the name of the village. Anyway, the village was burned in 1941. by the ustashi, massacred, and my family fled (a little bit earlyer that is). It was a pure Serbian villige and it was burned to the ground. Nothing left.
And now you are telling me that my ancestors are lyers? That they are the agressors and not the victims?
I think im in this matter better then you.

I have a few books, but unfortunatly i dont have enough time to retype it here. You can clearly see the number of Serbs living in NDH, before the war. And then after the war. 1.000.000 people fled or died during the war.
Consult your Enciklopedia Britanica and see what do they say about the nuber of victims. Surely, they do not lie.



------In fact the history of the wars, they were multiple, in the Balkans, between 1939 and 1947 remains to be written.

We have only propaganda papers on the subject. And yougoslav hisyorians are only beginning to express historical debates.
The fact that the Tito regime had to build up an official truth, and did not allow fre discussions on the period is certainly largely responsible, but the complexity of the matter is such that serious reflexions are necessary.

There is no clear study of the italian occupation, and of the effects of the 1943 capitulation. German reports on operations are obscured by the participation of local groups, which moved from one side to the other for particular and often local motives. Partizans, Tchetniks, and other local groups had no fixed composition, and some of them followed a person more than an objective. It appears that even in the names given to groups you can detect discrepancies not explicited, the whites being called greens by some commentators and vice versa.

I would certainly appreciate any discussion on the subject.
But please, not to promote one or another. Just to clarify facts, solve problems and try to explain tendancies. We in the West do in fact know nothing. We are ready to learn from our yougoslav collegues.

We however know that this period was full of hate, crime and atrocities. Therefore do not consider necessary to add salt on the wounds, but try to bring explanations permitting to heal and bring peace.-----


I agree with this, more or less...

Oh, yes i would also like to mention something that would be interesting to our Italian friends on this forum. Am sure you can find books on this subject. Did you know that Croats expelled about 300.000 Italians from Istra and Damacia? Thats interesting you must admit. I'm sure you can find more about this. It just fell on my mind.


Ok, here are a few quotes for you pleasure:



In papers of security agency Reich for Heirich Himler (date 10. April 1942.) says:
"number of orthodox which the Croatians massacred and killed is about 300 000" (IV/D/4
department R SHA (Gestapo), PA/AA Burro RAM Kroatien 1941/42, paper 442-449)

Josp Hirshberger, Jew from Budapest, secretary of CK KP Hungary (communist party)
(date 14. october) sad this: (this man was a prisoner in jasenovac and managed to escape
with five other people) "Ustashi claims that about 200 000 Serbs, Jews and gypsy's were
killed in Gradina, in Mala and jablanica about 40000, in Ustica 40000 gypsys"
(Archives OS, NOP, k. 868, registration no. 24/2)

Herman Nojbaher sad this in autumn 1943. "if leader of the ustashi claim that million
Serbs were slaughtered, including children, women and old man, then it is a show off. Because
of the reports that we have received number of slaughtered is about three quarter of a
million"
(V. Kazimirovic "German general in Zagreb" Kragujevac - Beograd 1996., page 99)

In one report (date 6. December 1943.) fon Horstenau speeks of Luburic as a butcher and
great sadist, and says that by Luburics order in Stara Gradiska about 80000 people were
killed, Jasenovac 120000, and other camps 20000 people
(Archives VII, Na, London s.306079-80 and 306069-70)

My translation, so there could be errors. Check it out.



Oh, yes and:

---------Seams to me that the point of this thread was to provoke and spread propaganda. Now that it has backfired Serbisches-Freiwilliger
refuses to replay

Go figure


PS:This may sound ignorant but a bit confused inset Serbia a Republic not Kingdom? What Kingdom you talking about (in Serbisches-Freiwilliger's
Location bar it states Serbian Kingdom)? If you can elaborate would be great thx. I need educating---------


Serbia is a republic for the moment yes. You must understand first, that monarhy was overthrown against the will of the people in 1945.
So, im hoping, in a few years, there could be a referendum in Serbia, a vote, for - against monarhy. Today, many people support monarhy.
I hope you'll see it in a few years.

Im not here to post proplagada. Its not false, it may seem false due to my english, but i assure you its not.


If there anything that you are not clear with, please ask me (Ustashis, Chetniks, Serbian Voulunteer Corps, Slovenian Chetniks, Partisans...). I'll be more then happy to reply.

A very messy post indeed , the word IRONIC springs to mind when someone like you would dismiss work by American History professor , expert in that filed , as PROPAGANDA.Its ironic since you posted a link to a website (srpka-mreza) which is known as Serb propaganda tool , created to justify recent ethnic cleansing campaigns by the quazi fashist Serb government (Milosevic and co.) against non Serbs in Croatia and Bosnia.

As far as your own families personal experinces during the WW2 and the massacres that took place in Lika and Bosnia at the time , no doubt these events did took place.Serbs were massacred by Ustashe.However , around that same time or even prior to this your own Serbian chetniks were carrying out similar massacres in Eastern Bosnia and parts of Croatia.I'm sure there are plenty of Croats and Muslims who can tell their own personal family history to reflect these facts.

Number of Serbs living in NDH before the WW2 and number of dead totals in various Encyclopedias are mostly relying on old Yugo communist and pro Serb data which have been under review as unreliable.
Once again before you dismiss McAdams's book as propaganda you should read through this extract:
". In 1985, the Serbian scholar Bogoljub Kocovic published a major scholarly research work which put the figure for total demographic losses in all of Yugoslavia at 1,985,000 of which 971,000 were war-related. Of these 487,000 were Serbs killed anywhere in Yugoslavia by any side including Germans, Italians, Croatians, Albanians, Hungarians, Soviets, American bombing or by other Serbs. Kocovic concluded that some 125,000 Serbs and 124,000 Croatians died in Croatia during World War II. Kocovic also noted what many previous demographers had ignored. The first post-war census was taken in 1948 and "it is fully justified to take into account these post-war victims of communist terror," in reference to the thousands of Croatians slaughtered in late 1945 and 1946 in what have come to be called the Bleiburg Massacres. In 1989 The Yugoslav Victimological Society and the Zagreb Jewish Community published what is now considered the definitive work by Vladimir Zerjavic which set total war losses at 1,027,000 of which 530,000 were Serbs and 192,000 Croatians. 131,000 Serbs and 106,000 Croatians were listed as having died of all war-related causes in Croatia
"http://mirror.veus.hr/myth/victims.html

". Did you know that Croats expelled about 300.000 Italians from Istra and Damacia? "

This is an blatant and outright lie , during NDH , large portion of Dalmacija was under Italian control.
Italian population of these two areas were mostly expelled by partisans/communists after 1945.

Unfortunately , I can't take rest of your claims seriusly , since you have already pushed usual Cetnik/Serb propaganda in this topic.

[Michael Miller]

I don't dispute the genocide practiced by Croatia against Serbs.

My problem is with the website URL's posted by Serbisches Freiwilliger- If THOSE provide the proof, then there is no proof.

No the proof exists, only elsewhere.

Regards,
~ Mike Miller