I was never afraid of answering, is just that im studying for the univeristy sign in exam (and i dont have as much money on my internet account as you do, so i can come here only a few times in a week).
Serbishe guy ,
Problem with your assesment and views on this topic is that its nothing more but familiar PROPAGANDA pushed by usual pro Serb factors.
This 700,000 killed Serbs by Ustashe in WW2 Croatia has been discredited.
C. Michael McAdams ( a specialist in Croatian studies and is Director of the University of San Francisco's Regional Center) in his recent book Croatia: Myth and Reality says following:
-----"The exact number of war victims in Yugoslavia during World War II may never be known due to fifty years of intentional disinformation by the Yugoslavian and Serbian governments, Serbian exile groups, and others. However, it is likely that approximately one million people of all nationalities died of war-related causes in all of Yugoslavia during World War II and that as many as 125,000 Serbs died of war-related causes in Croatia during the War."
I advise you to look up his book so that some of this misconnceptions can become a bit more clear.
Check out following link for more information :
Yes, yes i've read it a few years ago. Propaganda, thats all i can say about that. But whats interesting is that suddenly you foreigners know more about ustashi crimes than i do, even though i lost half of my family in Croatia. My great-grandfather was murdered in Bosnia by the ustashis in 1941. My family had to flee the area, just to survive. It was a villige neer Kulen Vakuf. Today, you have no more Serbs living there.
Thats my mothers side of the family. My fathers side family lived in a vilige in Croatia, Lika to be precised. I bear the last name as same as the name of the village. Anyway, the village was burned in 1941. by the ustashi, massacred, and my family fled (a little bit earlyer that is). It was a pure Serbian villige and it was burned to the ground. Nothing left.
And now you are telling me that my ancestors are lyers? That they are the agressors and not the victims?
I think im in this matter better then you.
I have a few books, but unfortunatly i dont have enough time to retype it here. You can clearly see the number of Serbs living in NDH, before the war. And then after the war. 1.000.000 people fled or died during the war.
Consult your Enciklopedia Britanica and see what do they say about the nuber of victims. Surely, they do not lie.
------In fact the history of the wars, they were multiple, in the Balkans, between 1939 and 1947 remains to be written.
We have only propaganda papers on the subject. And yougoslav hisyorians are only beginning to express historical debates.
The fact that the Tito regime had to build up an official truth, and did not allow fre discussions on the period is certainly largely responsible, but the complexity of the matter is such that serious reflexions are necessary.
There is no clear study of the italian occupation, and of the effects of the 1943 capitulation. German reports on operations are obscured by the participation of local groups, which moved from one side to the other for particular and often local motives. Partizans, Tchetniks, and other local groups had no fixed composition, and some of them followed a person more than an objective. It appears that even in the names given to groups you can detect discrepancies not explicited, the whites being called greens by some commentators and vice versa.
I would certainly appreciate any discussion on the subject.
But please, not to promote one or another. Just to clarify facts, solve problems and try to explain tendancies. We in the West do in fact know nothing. We are ready to learn from our yougoslav collegues.
We however know that this period was full of hate, crime and atrocities. Therefore do not consider necessary to add salt on the wounds, but try to bring explanations permitting to heal and bring peace.-----
I agree with this, more or less...
Oh, yes i would also like to mention something that would be interesting to our Italian friends on this forum. Am sure you can find books on this subject. Did you know that Croats expelled about 300.000 Italians from Istra and Damacia? Thats interesting you must admit. I'm sure you can find more about this. It just fell on my mind.
Ok, here are a few quotes for you pleasure:
In papers of security agency Reich for Heirich Himler (date 10. April 1942.) says:
"number of orthodox which the Croatians massacred and killed is about 300 000" (IV/D/4
department R SHA (Gestapo), PA/AA Burro RAM Kroatien 1941/42, paper 442-449)
Josp Hirshberger, Jew from Budapest, secretary of CK KP Hungary (communist party)
(date 14. october) sad this: (this man was a prisoner in jasenovac and managed to escape
with five other people) "Ustashi claims that about 200 000 Serbs, Jews and gypsy's were
killed in Gradina, in Mala and jablanica about 40000, in Ustica 40000 gypsys"
(Archives OS, NOP, k. 868, registration no. 24/2)
Herman Nojbaher sad this in autumn 1943. "if leader of the ustashi claim that million
Serbs were slaughtered, including children, women and old man, then it is a show off. Because
of the reports that we have received number of slaughtered is about three quarter of a
(V. Kazimirovic "German general in Zagreb" Kragujevac - Beograd 1996., page 99)
In one report (date 6. December 1943.) fon Horstenau speeks of Luburic as a butcher and
great sadist, and says that by Luburics order in Stara Gradiska about 80000 people were
killed, Jasenovac 120000, and other camps 20000 people
(Archives VII, Na, London s.306079-80 and 306069-70)
My translation, so there could be errors. Check it out.
Oh, yes and:
---------Seams to me that the point of this thread was to provoke and spread propaganda. Now that it has backfired Serbisches-Freiwilliger
refuses to replay
PS:This may sound ignorant but a bit confused inset Serbia a Republic not Kingdom? What Kingdom you talking about (in Serbisches-Freiwilliger's
Location bar it states Serbian Kingdom)? If you can elaborate would be great thx. I need educating---------
Serbia is a republic for the moment yes. You must understand first, that monarhy was overthrown against the will of the people in 1945.
So, im hoping, in a few years, there could be a referendum in Serbia, a vote, for - against monarhy. Today, many people support monarhy.
I hope you'll see it in a few years.
Im not here to post proplagada. Its not false, it may seem false due to my english, but i assure you its not.
If there anything that you are not clear with, please ask me (Ustashis, Chetniks, Serbian Voulunteer Corps, Slovenian Chetniks, Partisans...). I'll be more then happy to reply.