Croatian Ustashi victims pictures

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Krasnaya Zvezda
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Post by Krasnaya Zvezda » 17 Apr 2003 15:26

viriato wrote: Yet the first country to try to get rid of the Jews was Serbia and not Croatia. And at the end of the war it seems that there were more Jews surviving in Croatia than in Serbia
I am trying to emphasize the difference here between the free will Croatia had and that as an independent country choose to be an active participant and creator of the holocaust, vs the Serbia that you mentione that was under German military administration without any say to stop or incite the holocaust. Most of the Jews in Serbia were deported by the end of September by the Germans. Anyhow, ask the Jews better do they see a difference here, I have no intention to get into clarifying the roles and defending sides and the last - arguing.

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LuftStuka
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Post by LuftStuka » 18 Apr 2003 17:39

What I still find interesting is that Krasnaya Zvezda your argument is based on assumption not facts you got any evidence that Croatian immediate plan was to kill all the Serb and Jews to make Hitler like them! Or is that your personal bias opinion? The Jew thing mentioned by viriato is interesting because I read that the founder of right wing movement that later developed into Ustasha movement was a Jew. Think his name was Franck or something.

PS: Krasnaya Zvezda you really believe the Croatia government had any choice in killing Jews the orders came form Hitler. The Italian army was in the costal aria and the rest of the country was littered with German soldiers. They had no choice like Serbia did not have any choice they had to do what the SS man wanted if they wanted to save there necks. Same as today week countries do what big boys tell them.
:idea:

PSS:It would not surprise me one little bit that there were more Jews killed in Serbia then in Croatia. Mainly because Serbia seams the most Arian of all nations in Europe. Anything not Serb must be killed and this is not just opinion of the Government but the people in general. The 90s war prove it and there is no disputing that! From what I read the Serb local populations in Croatian Bosnia and Kosove did not need any encouragement to bring out the axes and stared mutulating anything not Serb. There are even videos of that no need for manufacturing pictures.Interestingly enough took by Serbs them self as a trophies of some sorts they took pride in their handy work. How twisted do you have to be or is that just hate I wonder? Guess it just a Balkan thing.

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Post by Krasnaya Zvezda » 19 Apr 2003 12:54

LuftStuka,


I do not know what you mean with that Balkan style? The fact that Balkan shows frequent brutality is a mere consequences of being ethnically and religiously the most mixed part of europe. Nowhere in Europe we have an example where different ethnicity and religions have been tolerant to each other (Switzerland may be an exception) all the time. While you as Scandinavians were free to develop yourselves for centuries unopposed from any other foreign power that was religiously and culturally so much different than you, Balkans suffered 500 years of Turkish occupation, at the time of their fall they were much ahead culturally, religiously than most part of Europe. The Turks were stopped by the Poles at Wien and Europe forget about Balkans fearing the almighty Turkish army. Not really that far ago, 100 years ago, while parts of Balkans were still fighting for their national freedom you split your union with Norway ( same reasons I guess like in the Balkans now) , and 150 to 200 years ago you were at war with Denmark. Most of the Balkan states became independent just 10 years ago, unlike many counterparts in Europe. They never had their freedom like rest of the Europe before. Look at N. Irelands, Bask in Spain, problems in Belgium in the 80's, I mean who can expect anything different in the Balkans given the composition and unresolved problems there?


Going back to the topic, I guess you should read more. You probably confused Croats with the Serbs, as the Croats are the one who claimed that they are of pure aryan descent, you even hear (Slovene can confirm if you do not trust me) that they came from Iran, trying not to associate with Slavs themselves. Serbs never really claimed any superiority except that they are better soldiers. As far as NDH, you can read more on that, what happened during the WWII there was long before worked out in the theories of Starcevic who really compiled an encyclopedia why Serbs are more inferior than the Croats and he was adopted fully by the Ustashe. It did not happened overnight, there was big animosity against the Serbs in Croatia and multiple theories. The same misfortune never happened to the Croats in Serbia .

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sLOVEne
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Post by sLOVEne » 19 Apr 2003 17:59

Indeed Krasnaya Zvezda has a point, I have a Croatian colleague here in Brussels and he constantly “educates” me on how Croatians are not Slavic, but were an Asian tribe (originating from Iran and Afghanistan) that was then slavicised (if that’s a word) in the 7th century when they settled in Western Balkan Peninsula.

Some sources:

http://www.iranchamber.com/history/arti ... t_iran.php
http://www.netiran.com/Htdocs/Clippings ... XAR01.html
http://www.fas.org/irp/congress/1996_hr/s960523t.htm
archiver.rootsweb.com/th/read/CROATIA/2002-11/1036356153
http://www.geocities.com/irnationalsoci ... oatia.html


Also interesting is the Ustase Decree on the “Protection of Aryan Blood and the Honor of the Croatian People” http://www.pavelicpapers.com/documents/ ... a0002.html

Luftstuka, you certainly might have confused the Serbs with Croats (when dealing with ww2). The deputy leader in 1941, Mile Budak, once stated that in a speech of the Ustasa’s goal was to: to murder a third, expel a third, and convert to Catholicism a third of the Serbian population.

http://www.pavelicpapers.com/timeline/index.html
the above website also claims that the Ustase killed 600,000 Serbs, 30,000 Jews and 29,000 Roma.

mel43
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Post by mel43 » 20 Apr 2003 16:28

The exact number of war victims in Yugoslavia during World War II may never be known due to fifty years of intentional disinformation by the Yugoslavian and Serbian governments,
I can tell you that only now information is slowly coming out with documented records which were held by the Yugoslavian government on capture, sentencing of Croatian civilians of this time. The sentences served were imprisonment, hard labour, executions, some dying in prison due to lack of food, medication, not just men, women as well. They held records on all captured not only of the prisoner but also of family members, they knew everything about each family. You may even learn some of your family members were imprisoned as well. These documents state not only croatians but serbians as well. But yes there will be many that we will not know about.
But whats interesting is that suddenly you foreigners know more about ustashi crimes than i do, even though i lost half of my family in Croatia
You forget both sides lost family, my grandfather and all his brothers and their wifes were killed also by the Tito's Paritzans. You only know what has been told to you, like myself. My mother's family was taken to a serbian village until her father was caught and killed but my mother remembers good serbian people in this village who looked after her family. You find good and bad in all, regardless of what they call themselves. You should hope and pray none of us have to endure what they went through.
My fathers side family lived in a vilige in Croatia, Lika to be precised
Lika is a dominated Croatian area, 97% being croatian.

Here is a bit of information for you to read, this bit relates back in 1925........
We [the Serbs] are masters of your [Croat] lives and your possessions. You have nothing but two choices: either to stay in this country and be obedient, or to move out of our state. We want to dominate. We want to rule. We want to control your body, your soul, and your possessions, because we are the guarantors and the foundation of this great Homeland of ours ....by Srbadija. The official organ of the Novi Sad Regional Committee of the SRNAO. February 7, 1925...

If you want to talk about what happened during the war let's here both sides of the story.

While we're on the subject of Ustashi, could anyone tell me of any books to read about the Ustashi, Domobrans and Krizari, Im most interested in reading about their regiments especially in the Lika area.

Thank you

HS
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Post by HS » 22 Apr 2003 00:20

sLOVEne wrote:Indeed Krasnaya Zvezda has a point, I have a Croatian colleague here in Brussels and he constantly “educates” me on how Croatians are not Slavic, but were an Asian tribe (originating from Iran and Afghanistan) that was then slavicised (if that’s a word) in the 7th century when they settled in Western Balkan Peninsula.

Some sources:

http://www.iranchamber.com/history/arti ... t_iran.php
http://www.netiran.com/Htdocs/Clippings ... XAR01.html
http://www.fas.org/irp/congress/1996_hr/s960523t.htm
archiver.rootsweb.com/th/read/CROATIA/2002-11/1036356153
http://www.geocities.com/irnationalsoci ... oatia.html


Also interesting is the Ustase Decree on the “Protection of Aryan Blood and the Honor of the Croatian People” http://www.pavelicpapers.com/documents/ ... a0002.html

Luftstuka, you certainly might have confused the Serbs with Croats (when dealing with ww2). The deputy leader in 1941, Mile Budak, once stated that in a speech of the Ustasa’s goal was to: to murder a third, expel a third, and convert to Catholicism a third of the Serbian population.

http://www.pavelicpapers.com/timeline/index.html
the above website also claims that the Ustase killed 600,000 Serbs, 30,000 Jews and 29,000 Roma.
pavelicpapers.com is a Serb run ant-Croat propaganda website

HS
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Post by HS » 22 Apr 2003 00:31

Krasnaya Zvezda wrote:
viriato wrote: Yet the first country to try to get rid of the Jews was Serbia and not Croatia. And at the end of the war it seems that there were more Jews surviving in Croatia than in Serbia
I am trying to emphasize the difference here between the free will Croatia had and that as an independent country choose to be an active participant and creator of the holocaust, vs the Serbia that you mentione that was under German military administration without any say to stop or incite the holocaust. Most of the Jews in Serbia were deported by the end of September by the Germans. Anyhow, ask the Jews better do they see a difference here, I have no intention to get into clarifying the roles and defending sides and the last - arguing.
WW2 Serbian government participated with entusiasm in holocaust :
Croatia:Myth and Reality by McAdams
http://mirror.veus.hr/myth/wwtwo.html

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Post by michael mills » 22 Apr 2003 12:37

Viriato wrote:
Yet the first country to try to get rid of the Jews was Serbia and not Croatia. And at the end of the war it seems that there were more Jews surviving in Croatia than in Serbia.
Is that true?

The small number of Jews in Serbia (about 10,000) was exterminated during the war, but by the German Army, not by Serbs.

First the men were progressively shot during 1941, in the course of reprisal actions, in which Jews were selected as victims rather than Serbs, whom the German administration wished to placate. The women and children were placed in a camp near Belgrade, and there was talk of sending them down the Danube river and then by sea to a camp in the occupied Soviet Union. Eventually, they were killed in 1942, by the German civilian administration, not even by the SS.

It would not be surprising if the number of Jewish survivors was greater in Croatia, since the number of Jews there was far larger than in Serbia. In fact, the great majority of the Jews of Yugoslavia lived in Croatia, dating from the time when Croatia had been part of the Hungarian kingdom.

Most of the Jews of Croatia were killed in camps in the country, and by the forces of the Croatian Ustashi Government, not by the Germans. Only a minority of the Jews of Croatia was deported to Auschwitz.

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Roberto
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Post by Roberto » 22 Apr 2003 13:39

michael mills wrote: First the men were progressively shot during 1941, in the course of reprisal actions, in which Jews were selected as victims rather than Serbs, whom the German administration wished to placate.
Was that so?
Christopher R. Browning wrote:[…] With the first phase of the partisan war in Serbia at an end, the reprisal body count stood at about 15,000, of which some 4,500 – 5,000 were Jews and Gypsies.[…]


Source of quote: Christopher R. Browning, Germans and Serbs: The Emergence of Nazi Antipartisan Policies in 1941, in: A Mosaic of Victims. Non-Jews Persecuted and Murdered by the Nazis, edited by Michael Berenbaum, New York University Press, 1990.
michael mills wrote: The women and children were placed in a camp near Belgrade, and there was talk of sending them down the Danube river and then by sea to a camp in the occupied Soviet Union.
When did such “talk” take place?
michael mills wrote: Eventually, they were killed in 1942, by the German civilian administration, not even by the SS.
Translation from the letter written by SS-Major General Dr. Harald Turner, privy-councilor and chief of the German Administration in Serbia, to Karl Wolff, chief of Himmler's personal staff, on April 11, 1942:
[…] Already some months ago, I shot dead all the Jews I could get my hands on in this area, concentrated all the Jewish women and children in a camp and with the help of the SD got my hands on a "delousing van," that in about 14 days to 4 weeks will have brought about the definitive clearing out of the camp, which in any event since the arrival of Meyssner and the turning over of this camp to him, was continued by him.[…]
Source of quote:

http://www.holocaust-history.org/19420411-turner-wolff/

Krasnaya Zvezda
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Post by Krasnaya Zvezda » 22 Apr 2003 17:14

That site still does not claim the critical difference that I tried to emphasize that the Serbs themselves were creators of the holocaust. For anyone knowing the history it is clear that in that part of the world, neither Slovenia, neither Serbia, neither Bulgaria (who saved the Jews from Bulgaria but deported them from Macedonia), neither Albania (that was a sanctuary for the Jews, the most tolerant place in the Balkans), neither Hungary...can really measure up with NDH, state that actively encourage genocide and holocaust. Serbia was fully under German military administration. Many sources will comfirm that the partizan struggle was most popular among the Serbs so this is why Tito had to move from Zagreb into Serbia as he could not find supporters among cheering Croats for his anti-fascist fight.


Second, you claim that some sites are pro-Serb therefore invalid, yet you give a Croatian site. Credibility is uncomfimed. I can post from E. Britannica what they write on NDH if you want.

Third, you forgot I am Russian and I can read Cyrillic and understand Slavic languages as they are close to Russian. The post stamp on the site you quote , that is given as an evidence of the Serbian anti Semitism with the comment that Belgrade was claimed to be the first Judenfrei city says in Serbian ANTIMASONIC EXHIBITION, I do not know weather one can really take this stamp as an anti-Semitic evidence. What is the origin of this stamp and what does masons have to do with Jews?


Fourth, remember, I am talking about the Croatian state in WWII not the Croatian people now. I believe they feel what Pavelic and Ustashe have done was wrong. I believe also that they understand that the Serbs suffered in the only period Croatia had right to exercise its free will before 1991.
All the best.

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sLOVEne
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Post by sLOVEne » 22 Apr 2003 21:25

HS wrote:
sLOVEne wrote:Indeed Krasnaya Zvezda has a point, I have a Croatian colleague here in Brussels and he constantly “educates” me on how Croatians are not Slavic, but were an Asian tribe (originating from Iran and Afghanistan) that was then slavicised (if that’s a word) in the 7th century when they settled in Western Balkan Peninsula.

Some sources:

http://www.iranchamber.com/history/arti ... t_iran.php
http://www.netiran.com/Htdocs/Clippings ... XAR01.html
http://www.fas.org/irp/congress/1996_hr/s960523t.htm
archiver.rootsweb.com/th/read/CROATIA/2002-11/1036356153
http://www.geocities.com/irnationalsoci ... oatia.html


Also interesting is the Ustase Decree on the “Protection of Aryan Blood and the Honor of the Croatian People” http://www.pavelicpapers.com/documents/ ... a0002.html

Luftstuka, you certainly might have confused the Serbs with Croats (when dealing with ww2). The deputy leader in 1941, Mile Budak, once stated that in a speech of the Ustasa’s goal was to: to murder a third, expel a third, and convert to Catholicism a third of the Serbian population.

http://www.pavelicpapers.com/timeline/index.html
the above website also claims that the Ustase killed 600,000 Serbs, 30,000 Jews and 29,000 Roma.
pavelicpapers.com is a Serb run ant-Croat propaganda website
If you look at my post I primarily used the website (pavelicpapers.com) for you to take a look at the Ustase Decree on the “Protection of Aryan Blood and the Honor of the Croatian People”. As an end note I chose to just add what the website claimed about the number of killed Serbs in Croatia (I wasn’t arguing that its true, don’t worry).

Now talking about the number of dead, and using your “expert” website (http://mirror.veus.hr/myth/victims.html), they claim that the number will never be known, and that in the past “David Martin put the number at 500,000 in the New York Times; Serbian President Slobodan Milosevic at 750,000 in USA Today; Josif Djordjevich at 1,200,000 in the San Francisco Chronicle; Teddy Preuss at 1,500,000 in the Jerusalem Post; and, setting an all-time record, Peter Jennings' ABC News program set the figure at a record 2,000,000.” Krasnaya Zvezda in a previous post also said “as many as 350,000 to 450,000 victims were killed in Ustase massacres and in the notorious concentration camp at Jasenovac and this is the most accepted number, quoted even in E. Britannica.” So, looking at those figures, the website (pavelicpapers.com) wasn’t that bad with its propaganda (with its 600,000 figure).

Whilst your website (http://mirror.veus.hr/myth/victims.html) claims “that as many as 125,000 Serbs died of war-related causes in Croatia during the War”. So, your website is just as bad with its figures, if not worse, don’t you think that’s pretty low? Best for now, is to go with the number encyclopaedia’s state.

HS
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Post by HS » 23 Apr 2003 01:03

Krasnaya Zvezda wrote:
That site still does not claim the critical difference that I tried to emphasize that the Serbs themselves were creators of the holocaust. For anyone knowing the history it is clear that in that part of the world, neither Slovenia, neither Serbia, neither Bulgaria (who saved the Jews from Bulgaria but deported them from Macedonia), neither Albania (that was a sanctuary for the Jews, the most tolerant place in the Balkans), neither Hungary...can really measure up with NDH, state that actively encourage genocide and holocaust. Serbia was fully under German military administration. Many sources will comfirm that the partizan struggle was most popular among the Serbs so this is why Tito had to move from Zagreb into Serbia as he could not find supporters among cheering Croats for his anti-fascist fight.


Second, you claim that some sites are pro-Serb therefore invalid, yet you give a Croatian site. Credibility is uncomfimed. I can post from E. Britannica what they write on NDH if you want.

Third, you forgot I am Russian and I can read Cyrillic and understand Slavic languages as they are close to Russian. The post stamp on the site you quote , that is given as an evidence of the Serbian anti Semitism with the comment that Belgrade was claimed to be the first Judenfrei city says in Serbian ANTIMASONIC EXHIBITION, I do not know weather one can really take this stamp as an anti-Semitic evidence. What is the origin of this stamp and what does masons have to do with Jews?


Fourth, remember, I am talking about the Croatian state in WWII not the Croatian people now. I believe they feel what Pavelic and Ustashe have done was wrong. I believe also that they understand that the Serbs suffered in the only period Croatia had right to exercise its free will before 1991.
All the best.
Krasnaya Zvezda wrote:
That site still does not claim the critical difference that I tried to emphasize that the Serbs themselves were creators of the holocaust. For anyone knowing the history it is clear that in that part of the world, neither Slovenia, neither Serbia, neither Bulgaria (who saved the Jews from Bulgaria but deported them from Macedonia), neither Albania (that was a sanctuary for the Jews, the most tolerant place in the Balkans), neither Hungary...can really measure up with NDH, state that actively encourage genocide and holocaust. Serbia was fully under German military administration. Many sources will comfirm that the partizan struggle was most popular among the Serbs so this is why Tito had to move from Zagreb into Serbia as he could not find supporters among cheering Croats for his anti-fascist fight.
NDH and Ustashe actively encouraged genocide and holocaoust , while Serb WW2 state under occupation gave the Germans a hand in killing of Jews.I guess that is the difference , NDH was official German ally , so the Germans trusted the Ustashe in doing their dirty work for them while in Serbia the Germans did the killings helped along by Nedic , Ljotic and co.

"Nedic supported Hitler and met with him in 1943. This new government established even harsher racial laws than Prince Paul had enacted and immediately established three concentration camps for Jews, Gypsies and others. Nedic formed his own paramilitary storm troops known as the State Guard. The Guard was comprised of former members of the Cetniks which had existed as an all-Serbian para-military police force under Alexander and Paul to enforce loyally from non-Serbian members of the armed forces. When Yugoslavia disintegrated, one faction of cetniks swore allegiance to the new Serbian Nazi government. Another group remained under the pre-war leader Kosta Pecanac who openly collaborated with the Germans. A third Cetnik faction followed the Serbian Fascist Dimitrije Ljotic. Ljotic's units were primarily responsible for tracking down Jews, Gypsies and Partisans for execution or deportation to concentration camps"

Now , about Tito moving to Belgrad and finding more supporters among Serbs.
This is pure propaganda.The truth is that pre war Tito was mostly based in Zagreb ( early to mid 30's).Naturaly as the head of Communist Party Of Yugoslavia Tito moved between Zagreb and Belgrad ( capital) on regular basis.Obviously Tito and co had to move to Belgrad when NDH was proclaimed.
I see you have conveniently ignored following statement from MCAdams's book:

"On June 22, 1941 Croatian Partisans began what would come to be known as the War of Liberation in Yugoslavia. On July 13, 1943 a Democratic Republic of Croatia under the leadership of Andrija Hebrang was declared in those areas occupied by the Croatian Partisan forces. As the war progressed more and more Croatians, especially from Dalmatia, joined the Partisans. Serbs joined in great numbers late in the War as entire Cetnik units changed their allegiance"
Your sources on Serb partisan numbers probabaly come from same pro-Serb anti-Croat ideology.
Krasnaya Zvezda wrote:[
Second, you claim that some sites are pro-Serb therefore invalid, yet you give a Croatian site. Credibility is uncomfimed. I can post from E. Britannica what they write on NDH if you want.

Third, you forgot I am Russian and I can read Cyrillic and understand Slavic languages as they are close to Russian. The post stamp on the site you quote , that is given as an evidence of the Serbian anti Semitism with the comment that Belgrade was claimed to be the first Judenfrei city says in Serbian ANTIMASONIC EXHIBITION, I do not know weather one can really take this stamp as an anti-Semitic evidence. What is the origin of this stamp and what does masons have to do with Jews?


Fourth, remember, I am talking about the Croatian state in WWII not the Croatian people now. I believe they feel what Pavelic and Ustashe have done was wrong. I believe also that they understand that the Serbs suffered in the only period Croatia had right to exercise its free will before 1991.
All the best.[/quote]

After 50 odd years of communist pro-Serb disinformation and propaganda that originated out of blatantly Serbs dominated Yugoslavia and very little proper unbaised research being completed some of the usual statement references like E. BRITANNICA have been compromised.
Yes , the site I posted is Croat based , however the book in question was compiled by non-baised historical researcher (IMO).Can you blame the Croats for posting a more balanced description of the WW2 situation ?
Lastly on that stamp example , IMO it represents anti-semetic sentiments adopted by stamp author and Serb authorities of the day clearly , the fact that you can read cyrillic and it says ANTIMASONIC on the stamp is irrelevant.
You should ask an expert on these matters what antimasonic represents on that stamp ?

HS
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Post by HS » 23 Apr 2003 01:31

sLOVEne wrote:
HS wrote:
sLOVEne wrote:Indeed Krasnaya Zvezda has a point, I have a Croatian colleague here in Brussels and he constantly “educates” me on how Croatians are not Slavic, but were an Asian tribe (originating from Iran and Afghanistan) that was then slavicised (if that’s a word) in the 7th century when they settled in Western Balkan Peninsula.

Some sources:

http://www.iranchamber.com/history/arti ... t_iran.php
http://www.netiran.com/Htdocs/Clippings ... XAR01.html
http://www.fas.org/irp/congress/1996_hr/s960523t.htm
archiver.rootsweb.com/th/read/CROATIA/2002-11/1036356153
http://www.geocities.com/irnationalsoci ... oatia.html


Also interesting is the Ustase Decree on the “Protection of Aryan Blood and the Honor of the Croatian People” http://www.pavelicpapers.com/documents/ ... a0002.html

Luftstuka, you certainly might have confused the Serbs with Croats (when dealing with ww2). The deputy leader in 1941, Mile Budak, once stated that in a speech of the Ustasa’s goal was to: to murder a third, expel a third, and convert to Catholicism a third of the Serbian population.

http://www.pavelicpapers.com/timeline/index.html
the above website also claims that the Ustase killed 600,000 Serbs, 30,000 Jews and 29,000 Roma.
pavelicpapers.com is a Serb run ant-Croat propaganda website
If you look at my post I primarily used the website (pavelicpapers.com) for you to take a look at the Ustase Decree on the “Protection of Aryan Blood and the Honor of the Croatian People”. As an end note I chose to just add what the website claimed about the number of killed Serbs in Croatia (I wasn’t arguing that its true, don’t worry).

Now talking about the number of dead, and using your “expert” website (http://mirror.veus.hr/myth/victims.html), they claim that the number will never be known, and that in the past “David Martin put the number at 500,000 in the New York Times; Serbian President Slobodan Milosevic at 750,000 in USA Today; Josif Djordjevich at 1,200,000 in the San Francisco Chronicle; Teddy Preuss at 1,500,000 in the Jerusalem Post; and, setting an all-time record, Peter Jennings' ABC News program set the figure at a record 2,000,000.” Krasnaya Zvezda in a previous post also said “as many as 350,000 to 450,000 victims were killed in Ustase massacres and in the notorious concentration camp at Jasenovac and this is the most accepted number, quoted even in E. Britannica.” So, looking at those figures, the website (pavelicpapers.com) wasn’t that bad with its propaganda (with its 600,000 figure).

Whilst your website (http://mirror.veus.hr/myth/victims.html) claims “that as many as 125,000 Serbs died of war-related causes in Croatia during the War”. So, your website is just as bad with its figures, if not worse, don’t you think that’s pretty low? Best for now, is to go with the number encyclopaedia’s state.
Slovene ,

You have missed the whole point of this thread and the sentiment of the author of this thread ( Serbishe.....).
Unfortunately due to 50-60 years of manipulation of data , disinformation and propaganda coming from communist Yugoslav authorities whom were undoubtely pro-Serb in their stance and make up and whom continualy presented the Serbs as the only victims of German occupation and Serbs as only fighters against Germans and their allies the overall situation is still not completly clear.
The fact is that Serbs and the usual pro-Serb sources which manipulate the numbers of dead use same sort of methods over and over again to portray all Croats as genocidal Ustashe killers.
700,000 to 1,000,000 Serbs killed in Jasenovac is their main tool of propaganda.
Roberto has provided you with a link that explains the work of two researchers which show completly differnet set of numbers then the usual Serbs-good/Croats-bad histeria.
I suggest you read that and decide for yourself.

http://www.hr/darko/etf/bul.html

Krasnaya Zvezda
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Post by Krasnaya Zvezda » 23 Apr 2003 12:29

HS wrote:
NDH and Ustashe actively encouraged genocide and holocaoust , while Serb WW2 state under occupation gave the Germans a hand in killing of Jews.I guess that is the difference , NDH was official German ally , so the Germans trusted the Ustashe in doing their dirty work for them while in Serbia the Germans did the killings helped along by Nedic , Ljotic and co.
Italy was Germany ally we know how they treated the Jews, Hungary was, it is only towards the end of the war with reluctance that they agreed to fully cooperate with Germans on the holocaus . Bulgaria was a strong ally yet it kept refusing to deport the Jews. They were saved in Bulgaria. It is only in Croatia that this was accepted with great enthusiasm. Besides, the Germany never really cared about deporting the Serbs. The central issue in NDH was not the holocaust on the Jews as it was on the Serbs, this has nothing to do with the German ally. The NDH goal was to eradicate the Serbs and you have to also mention the truth that Germans had to intervene on several occasions (Italians too) to slow down the brutality. They really do not instigate Croatia on the holocaust of the Serbs. I do not remember the same goal to eradicate the Croats in Serbia?
"Nedic supported Hitler and met with him in 1943. This new government established even harsher racial laws than Prince Paul had enacted and immediately established three concentration camps for Jews, Gypsies and others. Nedic formed his own paramilitary storm troops known as the State Guard. The Guard was comprised of former members of the Cetniks which had existed as an all-Serbian para-military police force under Alexander and Paul to enforce loyally from non-Serbian members of the armed forces. When Yugoslavia disintegrated, one faction of cetniks swore allegiance to the new Serbian Nazi government. Another group remained under the pre-war leader Kosta Pecanac who openly collaborated with the Germans. A third Cetnik faction followed the Serbian Fascist Dimitrije Ljotic. Ljotic's units were primarily responsible for tracking down Jews, Gypsies and Partisans for execution or deportation to concentration camps"
I think the best sourse for evaluating the evildoers are the Jews themselves:

http://motlc.wiesenthal.com/text/x29/xr2983.html

It is clear from the text that the main word on the Jews in Serbia were the Germans? Why in Serbia the Germans and in Croatia the Croats? There is one line on Nedic, yet his contribution is not mentioned but to the reader of the text does not appear critical for the holocaust. It is also mentioned that there was an uprising in July in Sebia, the first in the territory of former Yu. Also, we all know that NDH was vastly supported by the Croatian population. I do not think we can put a sign of equality between the behavior of the Croatian state that was independent and Serbian under German rule that showed at least some signs of resistance. As you said it well in your first line: NDH and Ustashe actively encouraged genocide and holocaoust , while Serb WW2 state under occupation gave the Germans a hand in killing of Jews. This is a big difference!

Now , about Tito moving to Belgrad and finding more supporters among Serbs.
This is pure propaganda.The truth is that pre war Tito was mostly based in Zagreb ( early to mid 30's).Naturaly as the head of Communist Party Of Yugoslavia Tito moved between Zagreb and Belgrad ( capital) on regular basis.Obviously Tito and co had to move to Belgrad when NDH was proclaimed.
I see you have conveniently ignored following statement from MCAdams's book:

"On June 22, 1941 Croatian Partisans began what would come to be known as the War of Liberation in Yugoslavia. On July 13, 1943 a Democratic Republic of Croatia under the leadership of Andrija Hebrang was declared in those areas occupied by the Croatian Partisan forces. As the war progressed more and more Croatians, especially from Dalmatia, joined the Partisans. Serbs joined in great numbers late in the War as entire Cetnik units changed their allegiance"
Your sources on Serb partisan numbers probabaly come from same pro-Serb anti-Croat ideology
.

I did not quote any sources. I admit that this is hear say. But to me it seams logical that they greatest resistance occurs in the place where most atrocities occur. If people are so much against the system they should have rebel in the place and clean their own backyard. Croatia from all the states in the area was the place where killing of innocent civilians in the concentration capms occured at the greatest extent. Yet the most ferocious battles were fought in Bosnia and to a lesser extent in Sebia. Why is it that the resistance was much meager in Croatia? I do not have an answer to this and I do not have any speculations.
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After 50 odd years of communist pro-Serb disinformation and propaganda that originated out of blatantly Serbs dominated Yugoslavia and very little proper unbaised research being completed some of the usual statement references like E. BRITANNICA have been compromised.
Yes , the site I posted is Croat based , however the book in question was compiled by non-baised historical researcher (IMO).Can you blame the Croats for posting a more balanced description of the WW2 situation ?
Lastly on that stamp example , IMO it represents anti-semetic sentiments adopted by stamp author and Serb authorities of the day clearly , the fact that you can read cyrillic and it says ANTIMASONIC on the stamp is irrelevant.
You should ask an expert on these matters what antimasonic represents on that stamp ?
Well I still think E. Britannica is a valid source, that is what most of the world thinks. They have things on Russia also that I wish were more truthfull but I am biased of course about my own country.

The question about the stamp was directed to you , since you claim the site to be credible. You are the one quoting it, it is your responsibility to give us credible informations. The fact that the stamps says antimasonic is not irrelevant. I do not know what is the conection with the Jews? Maybe Slovene or anyone from that area can clarify this as he may have more info and to him it truly may seem irrelevant the fact that it says antimasonic exhibition.

Again, I tend to keep this discussion very brief. I will not engage and allow to get into the quagmire of Balkan problems although I find them fascinating.

It is the distance from the evil that everyone should do. There is no country that has not sinned. It is when the country is given power that one can see what it does. So far, no country in human history has lived up fully the ideal all the humans are stemming to achieve. The best is to recognize what is wrong. If Serbs have suffered in NDH that has to be recognized, the denial is the worse thing, brings more unhappines. Also, goes for the other side. USSR has done a lot of bad things, of course it was the major power, that is what all major powers have done in the past, I guess it is a human natrue, not recognizing it is the worst choice. All the best to you.

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sLOVEne
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Post by sLOVEne » 23 Apr 2003 20:05

Krasnaya Zvezda, this website might clarify it (about the antimasonic). I found this quote in there:

"The countries which are still ostensibly independent, but actually under the heel of Germany, must prove their conformity to the Nazi pattern by taking harsh measures against Masonry. In Hungary the dissolution of the lodges was unnecessary because they were never allowed to resume after Bela Kun was overthrown. Mason-baiting is one "principle" on which White Terrors and Red Terrors have always agreed. Rumania recently prohibited Freemasonry to prove its subservience to Germany. Bulgaria and Yugoslavia, inhabited by levelheaded and tolerant peasantry, were also obliged to enact the twin sets of laws -- anti-Semitic and anti-Masonic -- that demonstrate "friendship for Hitler"."

source: http://hometown.aol.com/bobby39629/myho ... itary.html

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