Croatian Ustashi victims pictures

Krasnaya Zvezda · Post by **Krasnaya Zvezda** » 24 Apr 2003 04:17

sLOVEne wrote:Krasnaya Zvezda, this website might clarify it (about the antimasonic). I found this quote in there:

"The countries which are still ostensibly independent, but actually under the heel of Germany, must prove their conformity to the Nazi pattern by taking harsh measures against Masonry. In Hungary the dissolution of the lodges was unnecessary because they were never allowed to resume after Bela Kun was overthrown. Mason-baiting is one "principle" on which White Terrors and Red Terrors have always agreed. Rumania recently prohibited Freemasonry to prove its subservience to Germany. Bulgaria and Yugoslavia, inhabited by levelheaded and tolerant peasantry, were also obliged to enact the twin sets of laws -- anti-Semitic and anti-Masonic -- that demonstrate "friendship for Hitler"."

source: http://hometown.aol.com/bobby39629/myho ... itary.html

Thanks Slovene, I learned new thing today, tha masonry was not tolerated in Third Reich. Well, it is not to say that if you are anti mason you are anti-semit and that from that stamp we can conclude that Serbia was anti semitic, but I get the point. All the best.

Janissary · Post by **Janissary** » 02 Jun 2003 01:48

All the supposed abominations, the skeletons and death's head, the coffins and the mysteries, are mere bogeys for children. But there is one dangerous element and that is the element I have copied from them. They form a sort of priestly nobility. They have developed and esoteric doctrine more merely formulated, but imparted through the symbols and mysteries in degrees of initiation. The hierarchical organization and the initiation through symbolic rites, that is to say, without bothering the brain by working on the imagination through magic and the symbols of a cult, all this has a dangerous element, and the element I have taken over. Don't you see that our party must be of this character...? An Order, the hierarchial Order of a secular priesthood."

-Adolf Hitler praising Freemasonry

Marcus · Post by **Marcus** » 02 Jun 2003 10:18

Janissary,

What are you trying to say with that post?

/Marcus

Katarina Lindstrom · Post by **Katarina Lindstrom** » 09 Jun 2003 01:35

The Partizans were founded in Croatia. I know it bothers certain people to realize that, but that is what happened. Of course nothing stays simple in the Balkans. The Cetniks got their start as monarchists. Every one knows that the Ustasa were Nazi supporters. What no one wants to talk about is that neither the Croats nor the Muslims felt any choice about the side they ended up in during the war. The problem was that there was Communism as a factor, and lest we forget, Communism was anti-religious. It is all very well to say all the awful things t hat Croats and Muslims did during WWII, but no one wants to face that there were awful things done by Serbs, Communist, monarchist and Nazi. There was a Serbian Nazi puppet in Serbia and Serbia was declared 'Jew free'. Germany itself was never 'Jew free' and that didn't happen in Croatia either and remember half of Bosnia was in the NDH at that time. For every set of attrocities done by Croats or by Muslims it is possible to find attrocities equally well documented, which were done by Serbs, Communist monarchist and Nazi supporting.
One could sit around throwing pictures and statitistics about attrocities around into the night and leave out what was done by the U.S. the British, and the French during the war. Attrocities should not happen, it is bad enough that men are on a battle field man to man, but in all wars of modern times there have been attrocities on all sides. I often wonder if war is about principles at all, or if after a time it gains a momentum of it's own and goes on regardless of right or wrong. If I go and kill your brother I am going to have to expect you will come and kill my brother because until you do it you don't feel like a man and then I have to go do the same thing back. Pretty soon it doesn't matter who was right or wrong in the first place. So it goes.
Katarina

Katarina Lindstrom · Post by **Katarina Lindstrom** » 11 Jun 2003 06:38

I've found the numbers in claims rather dodgey myself. It seems by the time you add up all the numbers, you wonder why anyone is still living in the Balkans! Seriously the real problem with understanding what happened there in WWII, is that there is NO objective history of the regioin. Even the Encyclopedia Brittanica cannot be considered as objective in regard to Balkans matters. The British favored the Serbs. The other thing to realize about the British is that they brought down the Ottoman Empire, that is what Lawrence of Arabia was doing in Hejaz back in the WWI days. While the British did not single-handedly destroy the Austr-Hungarian Empire, they certainly were not friendly to it and were not sorry to see it fall either! It is in the economic conditions created by the fall of the Austro-Hungarian Empire that one can find the origins of Naziism in the first place! I do not trust French sources on the Balkans all that much either because they favored one side. I would surmise, that histories written by Austrians or Germans might favor the Croats and Muslims over the Serbs. I don't know since unfortunately I do not read German.
One huge problem is that if people keep relying on sources which have a definate political slant, without taking that slant into account, they will be decieved by propaganda. Reading past propaganda to find the truth is a fine art!
First one finds all sources and notes their biases
then one finds which statements agree in each source, then if at all possible one verifies physical facts and numbers. This is not always possible.
then one keeps on looking
this is a very timeconsuming process because one must admit to one's own biases first.
Not everyone we agree with is telling the truth and not everyone we disagree with is lying.
Another thing, just because something is in a book doesn't make it the truth. Just because something is on the Internet doesn't make it the truth.

David Thompson · Post by **David Thompson** » 11 Jun 2003 07:29

Excellent commentary in your last post, Katarina!

Krilnik · Post by **Krilnik** » 04 Jul 2003 15:13

I read all kinds of things that were in no connection with true so I will try to answer on some of theme.
First,NDH was no more genocid than any other axis state,and what happened to serbs in period 1941-1945,could be easily explained fot those who know how kingdom SHS was create and what things were happened to Croats from serb side in time 1918-1939.
Then it really bothers me when i see that someone equalize Ustase with partizans and especially cetniks.I mean Ustase were regular army which hold towns and roads while parizans were group of dirty and retard peasants who only knew how to hide in the woods,blow up railroad track or kill anyone who is not on there side.And chetniks,thats some other story,they were band of few hundred people who were also hiding in the woods,kill civilians and who were destroyed in Neretva battle by partizans who were fleeing from Germans.And when someone hear for at least one heroic act from them than we can talk about them.
Then there was a question "Who killed 190 000 Croats?"I will answer to that.At least 90% of them were killed by partizans and what is more interesting after the war.I can tell you about Jazovka-pitch in which were thrown about 1000 wounded people who were taken from hospital in Zagreb,then I can tell you about Krasic where were massacre 1000 soldiers who surrendered.And not to talk about Bleiburg and krizni put where 150 000 Croats lost their lives and all of that and more took place when war was over!
And what really made me laugh was when someone wrote that serbs were better soldiers,ha-ha better than who?Serbs,the "great" soldiers lost all their wars so today they have to celebrate their defeats(Kosovo battle).
And maybe one of the greatest military power(in their time they certainly were)Otoman empire weren't just stoped on the Balkans but they were stoped by Croats on the Balkans!And when Turks headed to Wien(sadly only thing that people know about them,siege of Wien and Sobjesky) they had to go around through Hungary to get there,is that understood krasnaya zvijezda?

alibegoa · Post by **alibegoa** » 24 Nov 2003 12:19

for some numbers of croatian victims check:
http://www.us-israel.org/jsource/Holoca ... novac.html

Kralj Mattias · Post by **Kralj Mattias** » 16 Feb 2004 19:16

There are tons of webbpages out there who's only goal is to make Serbians look like victims and Croatians as monsters.

The two worst ones must be: http://www.balkan-archive.org.yu and
http://www.srpska-mreza.com.

Its funny that you find few pages who describes the Serbian crimes...

Benoit Douville · Post by **Benoit Douville** » 21 Feb 2004 22:01

Kralj Mattias,

I think you are right. We find a lot of information about the crimes commited by Croatia but few about Serbia.

Walter Gorlitz, a military official, in his book writes the following:

"Unfortunately, one of the first measures undertaken by the Catholic Ustasha regime was a terrible military venture of extermination of the Serbian-Orthodox parts of population which has come under the Croatian rule."

Karl Deschner, a writer, Catholic and a doctor of philosophy, in his book writes the following:

"The Serbs have become slaughterhouse material. In accordance with this doctrine the Ustasha started actions against Serbs, the people of the highest cultural level in the Balkans but not of the Catholic faith..."
"Catholics were urged from the church pulpits to persecute Orthodox Serbs and especially arduous in this were the Franciscans whose monasteries have for a long time served as meeting grounds for the Ustashi." "Furthermore it is understood that from the total of two million Orthodox population, almost 600,000 was killed."

What do you think about that, do you believe it? In my studying of Warcrimes, I found that the War between the Serbs and the Ustasha is the less objective of the entire World War II period.

Regards

Kralj Mattias · Post by **Kralj Mattias** » 22 Feb 2004 00:00

I'm not really an expert on the subject, you should ask Allen Milcic, he seems to know a lot about this subject

Personaly i find it kinda hard to belive that 600,000 orthodox serbs were killed under the Ustasa regime.
Not to say that there were not many orthodox Serbs killed by the Ustasa, because there were, i just think the nubmer 600,000 is a bit too high.

What does Karl Deschner mean by this; "Serbs, the people of the highest cultural level in the Balkans " ?

Veteran · Post by **Veteran** » 22 Feb 2004 12:53

Kralj Mattias wrote:I'm not really an expert on the subject, you should ask Allen Milcic, he seems to know a lot about this subject

Personaly i find it kinda hard to belive that 600,000 orthodox serbs were killed under the Ustasa regime.
Not to say that there were not many orthodox Serbs killed by the Ustasa, because there were, i just think the nubmer 600,000 is a bit too high.

What does Karl Deschner mean by this; "Serbs, the people of the highest cultural level in the Balkans " ?

The fact is that Ustasha regime made a planned genocide. Ist also a fact that this was the biggest crime against single population in the Balkans.
Do you think like Stalin said once: "If you kill 1 its a tragedy. If you kill 10.000.000 its only a statistic."??? Numbers are not important because the final number of killed will never be known. Its better to say: "Crime happened and new generations must do everything not to let it happen again - no matter if this is Jasenovac, Srebrenica, etc.

Regards,

Veteran.

Kralj Mattias · Post by **Kralj Mattias** » 22 Feb 2004 12:58

Veteran wrote:Numbers are not important because the final number of killed will never be known. Its better to say: "Crime happened and new generations must do everything not to let it happen again - no matter if this is Jasenovac, Srebrenica, etc.

Regards,

Veteran.

Good said

JUF · Post by **JUF** » 06 Jun 2004 15:28

Good Evening Gentlemen!

Since there are those of you here that wish to propel the same propaganda and lies carried out by Tito and his communist government for 95 years, I cannot sit here and read all that is written without commenting.

As someone stated, look very carefully and read very carefully when reading such websites as srpska-mreza and the such. The Greater-Serbian and Yugo-Communist propaganda-machines have been working since 1918 in this part of the world, and it seems today, with the death of Yugoslavia long gone, some choose to keep its spirit alive.

Someone mentioned 50,000 deaths at Bleiburg and the Death Marches (known as the Croatian Way of the Cross). The figure of 150,000apx has been for a long time seen as a more accurate figure. Although the then, Communist government of Yugoslavia (backed by its British allies) chose to squash or play down any mention of these events (Croatian Spring, etc).

Somone also chose to see Croat, Serb and Communist forces during this war as similar and to the same fighting spirit... The Ustase were a legal uniformed army. The partizans and Cetniks on the other hand would today be seen as irregulars, terrorists, bands, and pheasants.

I in no way say before you here that the actions of the Ustase were moral, and good. Their ideals of 1/3 to be killed, 1/3 to be deported, and 1/3 to be converted is testiment to the first Yugoslavia and the Croatian century long struggle to have Croatia for themselves, free from foreign invaders. I'm not saying it was right, but I can understand why this happened.

On one hand you have a people who long for a Greater Serbia stretching hundreds of kilometers from their own land (do Karlobaga), where not one King of theirs ever smelt Karlobags grass. On the other you have a people who want Croatia proper to prosper only for themselves 100% pure of anythign foreign and inferior.

The Croats have long ago admitted their wrongs and accept such things as Jasenovac as true and today (apart from afew pockets) respect those who had fallen there... but untill such atrocities as Bleiburg, Vukovar, and Yugoslavia I & II go unheard, the 150,000+ unarmed victims of this post-war brutality have fallen to deaf ears.

rade · Post by **rade** » 10 Jun 2004 03:12

Katarina Lindstrom wrote: The Partizans were founded in Croatia. I know it bothers certain people to realize that, but that is what happened. Of course nothing stays simple in the Balkans. The Cetniks got their start as monarchists. Every one knows that the Ustasa were Nazi supporters. What no one wants to talk about is that neither the Croats nor the Muslims felt any choice about the side they ended up in during the war. The problem was that there was Communism as a factor, and lest we forget, Communism was anti-religious. It is all very well to say all the awful things t hat Croats and Muslims did during WWII, but no one wants to face that there were awful things done by Serbs, Communist, monarchist and Nazi. There was a Serbian Nazi puppet in Serbia and Serbia was declared 'Jew free'. Germany itself was never 'Jew free' and that didn't happen in Croatia either and remember half of Bosnia was in the NDH at that time. For every set of attrocities done by Croats or by Muslims it is possible to find attrocities equally well documented, which were done by Serbs, Communist monarchist and Nazi supporting.
One could sit around throwing pictures and statitistics about attrocities around into the night and leave out what was done by the U.S. the British, and the French during the war. Attrocities should not happen, it is bad enough that men are on a battle field man to man, but in all wars of modern times there have been attrocities on all sides. I often wonder if war is about principles at all, or if after a time it gains a momentum of it's own and goes on regardless of right or wrong. If I go and kill your brother I am going to have to expect you will come and kill my brother because until you do it you don't feel like a man and then I have to go do the same thing back. Pretty soon it doesn't matter who was right or wrong in the first place. So it goes.
Katarina

Serbia was occupied territory under direct German military control and rule. Croatia was a faithful Nazi ally state. That is a world of difference. The Serbs were severely punished for opposing Hitler, the Croats were greatly awarded for their Nazi loyalty. Indiscriminate Croatian mass slaughter of Serb civilians gave both the Chetnik and Partizan resistance armies a sizeable number of desperate and virtually outlawed people of Serb ethnicity who joined their ranks. Serbs made up a majority of Partizan forces even in Croatia proper and the Croatian peoples support of the Ustashe began to waver only after the capitulation of Mussolini. But, don't forget that the fight against the Ustashe went on even after the capitulation of Nazi Germany. Right wing Croatians have always been proud of this fact, that they as they see it were the most faithful Nazi allies of WW2. And the Partizans were not founded in Croatia but in Moscow, by a communist directive as a reaction to the Chetnik uprising following the Nazi occupation...

Axis History Forum

Croatian Ustashi victims pictures

Cetniks, Ustasi, and Partizans

Re: Cetniks, Ustasi, and Partizans