Croatian Ustashi victims pictures

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Post by Spy » 14 Jun 2004 18:14

David Thompson wrote:Budak, Dr. Mile (?-7.6.1945) – Croatian Minister of Religion and Education Apr 1941; Croatian Foreign Minister 13 Oct 1943 {arrested and put on trial by a military tribunal of the Yugoslav 2nd Army at Zagreb; convicted and sentenced to death by hanging 6 Jun 1945 (NYT 26 Jun 1945:3:1); execution announced 7 Jun 1945 (LT 8 Jun 1945:4:g).}
Yes, I know this. As you can see he was sentenced to death by an yugo-communist trial - very democratic and fair. :|

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Post by David Thompson » 14 Jun 2004 19:01

Spy -- You asked:
Who and when proclaimed Dr. Mile Budak as a criminal?
When I provided details, you responded:
Yes, I know this. As you can see he was sentenced to death by an yugo-communist trial - very democratic and fair.

This is a research area of the forum -- a place where information is exchanged and historical issues discussed. If you already know the answer, or don't want an answer at all, don't ask the question.

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Post by Spy » 14 Jun 2004 20:23

Hey David I'm very thankful for your infos. :) But I was asking ninoo.
BTW Do you know if this is true what ninoo said about Mile Budak. I've heard this before, but only as a part of bad serbian/yugoslavian propaganda, and if it's true what are the sources? Thanks in advance. Sorry for my bad English.

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Post by David Thompson » 14 Jun 2004 22:10

Spy -- ninoo said:
The true and brave man like Budak, the man who proclaim Ustasa policy to kill, convert and thrown-out Serbs in public?
You asked:
BTW Do you know if this is true what ninoo said about Mile Budak. I've heard this before, but only as a part of bad serbian/yugoslavian propaganda, and if it's true what are the sources?
I don't know if it's true. There aren't many impartial historians of the Balkans, and few write in English. Most discussions I've seen turn on the subject into yelling matches within only a few exchanges. Here are three allegations, which are specific as to time and place, about things Dr. Budak supposedly said:
In a speech given in Gospic on June 6, 1941, Mile Budak, the Ustasha Minister of Education and Cults, explained the policy of genocide against the Orthodox Serbs as follows:

"One-third of the Serbs we shall kill, another we shall deport, and the last we shall force to embrace the Roman Catholic religion and thus melt them into Croats." Jasenovac, by Carl Savich
Mile Budak, Ustasha Minister of Education and Cults, at Vukovar on July 8, 1941:
"They [Serbs] only belong to the Orthodox Church, and it has not worked for us to assimilate them. They should, however, know that our solution is: bow down or get out."
The Yugoslav Auschwitz and the Vatican, by Vladimir Dedijer; p. 130
And another from Mile Budak, at Ivanac, August 3, 1941:

"One should remember that the Catholic Church, which is neither a terrorist organization nor led by imbeciles, undertook six crusades for the liberation of Christ's grave. And it even went so far as children undertaking crusades. If this was the case in the 11th and 12th centuries, we are sure that the Church also understands the Ustasha struggle."
The Yugoslav Auschwitz and the Vatican, by Vladimir Dedijer; p. 131
These allegations appear on the website "Croatian holocaust," at:

Croatian holocaust
http://jmgainor.homestead.com/files/PU/MDPC/CH/CH.htm

The website clearly has a point of view, but I cannot tell if the allegations about Dr. Budak's statements are true, false, or require further explanation.

Another website, which also has a point of view, has some other documents and statements attributed to Dr. Budak:

Mile Budak
http://www.pavelicpapers.com/documents/budak/

Perhaps our readers have more information on this fellow.
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Post by Spy » 14 Jun 2004 23:48

Hey David thanks for the infos and great picture :) . I think the infos aren't true, no one has it ever proved. And the sources aren't credible. I was the net for Carl Savich, and I have found following:
http://www.serbianna.com/columns/savich/008.shtml

Well, in this text wrote by him he is talking about the operation "Storm" (1995 - Croatia liberated 1/3 of it's territory that was occupied by the JNA and chetniks), and he's writing that this operation was a crime?! You can also find on this site other texts by him, it's so evident that he's just a serbian propagand tool. :cry:

And Vladimir Dedijer....I have 3 books from him.
"Biografija Josipa Broza Tita" or something like this, in this books he's talking about the war criminal Tito, but he's hiding Tito's genocide-crimes against the Croats and he writes that Tito is a "Hero", "liberator"...
So Vladimir Dedijer is also not credible... :|

About pavelicpapers.com we have talked in this topic:
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 7&start=15
They' are an "independent" project researching the history of the ustasa movement, or as Allen Milcic in this topic said an "independent propaganda project".

All I know about Mile Budak is that he was one of the best croatian novelist and a good patriot. Today in the Republic of Croatia several streets are named after him. In my opinion he can't be a criminal, and all imputiations are lies and anti-croatian propaganda.
Anyway thanks for the nice picture. 8)

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Post by ninoo » 15 Jun 2004 03:53

Hi,
In a speech given in Gospic on June 6, 1941, Mile Budak, the Ustasha Minister of Education and Cults, explained the policy of genocide against the Orthodox Serbs as follows:

"One-third of the Serbs we shall kill, another we shall deport, and the last we shall force to embrace the Roman Catholic religion and thus melt them into Croats." Jasenovac, by Carl Savich
Carl K. Savic quoted it from Edmond Paris's "Genocide in Satelitte Croatia" book. Yes, I also would like to quote that. But thanks to David, I could escape from duty to write it. :)
Or, if you didn't like David's quote from the Savic's Serbian propaganda site, how if you look it from a scientific article like this:
Mile Budak, an Ustasa leader, stated the Serb minority would be handled according to a mathematical formula: One-third would be exterminated, one-third forcibly converted to Catholicism, and one-third resettled outside Croatia. In reality, these neat fractions were blurred as Ustasa state policy tended toward the annihilation of all Serbs within its territory. Not only would the genocide meet the Ustasa's goal of an ethnically pure Croatian nation, but the Ustasa also believed that it would widen their small political power base by making all Croatians by virtue of their ethnicity complicit in the genocide.(2)

Source his quote from: 2) Jonathan Steinberg, "Types of Genocide? Croatians, Serbs, and Jews, 1941 - 1945," in David Cesarani, ed., The Final Solution: Origins and Implementation (London, 1994), 175-93; Edmund Paris, Genocide in Satellite Croatia (Chicago, 1956), 128; Yeshayahu Jelinek, "Nationalities and Minoities in the Independent State of Croatia," Nationalities Papers 8 (1980): 193-201; Damir Mirkovic, "Victims and Perpetrators in the Yugoslav Genocide, 1941-1945: Some Preliminary Observations," Holocaust and Genocide Studies 7 (1993): 317-32.
The article above come from Jonathan Grunz "German Counterinsurgency Policy In Independent Croatia, 1941-1944" at http://articles.findarticles.com/p/arti ... 61482/pg_1 As the caption said, Grunz is a Ph.D. candidate at the University of Chicago.


Spy said:
You can also find on this site other texts by him, it's so evident that he's just a serbian propagand tool.

Yes, it is true that Savic page is Serbian propaganda. BTW, at least he used some sources/facts that have credibility to support his stand. And that is how historian work their duty--aside from their viewpoint. After all, you could always said many versions about history if you could provide facts to support your claim. However, in Budak case there were some facts (like his speech) that could support claim that he is a war criminal.
Thus, if you didn't have any facts (hard evidence) to support your view, then your view only a dream, or, at worst, an attempt to denial a fact. [no hard feeling, Spy. I didn't have any intention to offend you]

BTW, it is a pitty to see this thread has become an attempt to attack/washed some people crimes in past. Yes, maybe they talk about "Right or wrong is my country/people". In one side, I agree with that slogan. But it must have more meaning than only like it written. Actually, I would prefer the slogan like this: "Right or wrong is my country/people. But if they wrong, I must have a courage to acknowledge it and try to improve it." If we could said and act like that, perhaps God will give us a better future.


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Post by Spy » 15 Jun 2004 08:19

Ok Ninoo. :)
It is possible that he said this, but there is no prove that he was activ in doing war-crimes?! I mean he was only the minister of education and religion (Ministar nastave i Bogoslužja). Actually he wasn't the commander of a concetration camp.
Serbs and Croats don't like each other. That's the consequence of 100 years of fascist serbian politic against the Croatian people (Remeber "Kraljevina Jugoslavia" 1918 - 1941 and the second "Jugoslavija" 1945 - 1990). Did you know that "Maks" Luburic's father (There is no doubt that Luburic was a war criminal) was killed by serbs in front of his eye's. I don't want to excuse such people like Vjekoslav Luburic, but people should know why he did something like this.
I know there were criminals within the Ustasha movement, but Mile Budak can't be one of them. Craotian people saw him ever like a good and fair Croat.
BTW I have some of his books like "Ognjište", that a very quality novels. :) and I also can't believe to Jonathan Grunz it's so clear that he's also writing anti-croatian propaganda. Look what I've found in the link you posted:

"Ideologically, the Ustasa were most influenced by the nineteenth-century Croatian nationalist Ante Starcevic, who described the Serbs as a "race of slaves, beasts worse than any."(1) In addition, Ustasa ideology was imbued with a frontier Roman Catholicism that further marked off the Catholic Croatians from the Orthodox Christian Serbs. While most Croatians resented the Serbs for their control of the interwar Yugoslav state, the Ustasa intended to put its ideology into practice when it came to power and destroy the Serbian minorities within Independent Croatia".


Hey, hey Jonatahn Grunz talks here about the father of our nation!
Starèeviæ did never said something like this! That's a lie.
I have about 8 books from Ante Starèeviæ, they're called "Djela Dr. Ante Starèeviæa". In one of them you can read this here:

"(...) Držeæi se toga naèela mi iskreno ljubimo i za brata držimo i Srba, i Nijemca, i Talijana, i Žida, i Cigana, i Luterova itd. svakoga tko radi za opæenito dobro svega naroda i cijele domovine; a plašimo se jednako i Hrvata i Srba itd. svakoga tko je proti onim skupnim svetinjama."

If just my English were better...but I'll try to explain it anyway. Starèeviæ said that we honest love our brothers the serbs, Jews, Germans, Italians, Gypsis....
If Jonathan Grunz didn't write such crap about Dr. Ante Starèeviæ, I could believe him, but it is very clear that he also writes anti-croatian propaganda.
Ninoo, in my opinion it is impossible to find independent and correct informations about Mile Budak. Everyone who wrote about him is a serb, Jew or a person who don't like the Croats. Sorry but this is the truth. :|

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Post by ninoo » 15 Jun 2004 13:16

Hi,

It is possible that he said this, but there is no prove that he was activ in doing war-crimes?! I mean he was only the minister of education and religion (Ministar nastave i Bogoslužja). Actually he wasn't the commander of a concetration camp.
There are two type of the murders: the initiator and the preperator. As an example, Hitler, Heydrich, Himmler, and Eichmann, never killed somebody with their’s own hand. But they were same with the hangman and the executioners that murdered people with their’s own. Even more worst because they killed people only by order—the coward desk killers who actually didn’t have any courage to kill people by their’s own hands (remember Himmler act when he saw an execution in Minsk).
I think the case of Budak is same with them. Or, if his title deceive you, then you must see his Nazi’s counterpart—Goebbels. Read his title: Minister Propaganda, Education, and Enlightment. Sound innocent, isn’t it? But, there will be no doubt that if the Allied captured him alive, he will be dumped as war criminal in Nuremberg. Like Hitler, Himmler, Heydrich, and many high-ranking Nazis, he never killed people by his own head. Amazingly, he killed people only by his own words, speech, policy. How? He persuaded people to follow his suggestion to hate every people who didn’t suit with Nazi criteria......and, at the end, killed them, murdered them, massacred them. and goebbels was also an novelists and scriptwriter :D
Hey, hey Jonatahn Grunz talks here about the father of our nation!
Starèeviæ did never said something like this! That's a lie.
Maybe you are right. But, I don’t sure 100% because I didn’t know him or his works. BTW, you could know him more than I because you have many access to know him. Thus, it is your job to prove whether your claim 100% true, or not. Or, perhaps 50-50. How?
Let’s take about Martin Luther case. For many Protestants (including mine), Luther always be a saintly. But, recently there are some evidence that he was 100% saintly human. Some historians found that some of his works contained anti-Semite. So, some of them extremely dumped him like Nazis and gladly when some Nazis, especially Julius Streicher, tried to explained or excuse their’s anti-Semite crimes as only continuing from Luther works. However, that is not true, at least not 100% true. Luther’s anti-Semite is not same with the Nazis’. When he write his anti-Semite suggestion, he didn’t see Jews like the Nazis see them. His looking about Jews is same with his view to Papacy and Moslems at the time: He looking them as anti-Christ that tried to destroyed his works to purified Christianity. So, only the Jews which didn’t like his teach—not every Jews—who became his target. And he write it during his blackest days, when everyone seem against him. Thus, we could say that maybe Luther have (or some, or not at all) responsible for the Nazi’s anti-Semite. It’s depend your view. But, of course if you really want to know exactly about the issue, you must try to take neutral position as much as possible and tried to learn it step by step, looking every for or against stand about the issue, try to know the context when the issue happen, etc....Then maybe you could see the issue with a new perspective, even if your first stand is true.
BTW, while in fact I’m pro-Croats during Balkan 1990’s War, I really sad when saw some, or many, of them didn’t have any courage to see and acknowledge that they have black pages in their’s past. For me personally, perhaps that it is one of reasons about Balkan problems that made the old proverb of this area come true: “Whatever happen to my grandpa in past will be befallen to me”. :(

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Post by ninoo » 15 Jun 2004 13:19

he never killed people by his own head.
:oops:
sorry, by his own hands.

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Post by ninoo » 15 Jun 2004 13:27

that he was 100% saintly human
Uups again...I mean he was not 100% saintly human :oops:

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Post by Spy » 15 Jun 2004 21:34

@ Ninoo

I bought just today a book called "Povijest NDH" (History of the Independ state of Croatia) wrote by Hrvoje Matkoviæ. The book was printed in Zagreb in the year 2002. It's very objective and provides a lot of informations, pictures and documents. I have tried to find something bad about Mile Budak ( I mean this: "One-third of the Serbs we shall kill, another we shall deport, and the last we shall force to embrace the Roman Catholic religion and thus melt them into Croats." ) But I didn't find anything bad about him!

I think he didn't never said something like this, according to Vladimir Dedijer Mile Budak said this In a speech given in Gospic on June 6, 1941.
But they aren't any proofes for that.

During WW2 in Croatia they was genocide against serb, Jews, Gypsis and after war against the Croats.
But I have a strong feeling that Mile Budak isn't responsible for that. Today in Croatia you can find in school books several parts from Mile Budak's novels, I don't think the ministry of education would put war-criminals in school books, right.

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Post by ninoo » 16 Jun 2004 02:31

Hi Spy,
I bought just today a book called "Povijest NDH" (History of the Independ state of Croatia) wrote by Hrvoje Matkoviæ. The book was printed in Zagreb in the year 2002. It's very objective and provides a lot of informations, pictures and documents. I have tried to find something bad about Mile Budak ( I mean this: "One-third of the Serbs we shall kill, another we shall deport, and the last we shall force to embrace the Roman Catholic religion and thus melt them into Croats." ) But I didn't find anything bad about him!
My suggestion is try to buy or borrow some books that have negative remarks about him (including his Gospic speech) and see if that books have notes about from where they got something bad about Budak. Preferably, if the notes came from first-hand accounts (like speech recording, contemporary newspaper, documents etc.). Then try to find those things from museum or archives. If the evidences are exists, try to examine and verify it by scientific standards. If they pass from the examination, then your view is wrong. But, if they didn't exist or didn't pass the examination, then maybe you right about your stand for Budak. (At least you could claim that the accusation against Budak is false because there is no hard evidence against him).
Today in Croatia you can find in school books several parts from Mile Budak's novels, I don't think the ministry of education would put war-criminals in school books, right.
Perhaps you right. BTW, in this real world, the border between a hero and a criminal is very thin. It's depend somebody viewpoint. As an example, for many people, Mao Tse tung is only criminal because he killed thousands or maybe millions of his own people (like during his Cultural Revolution). But in mainland of China, his teachings is still teach in schools. Maybe in Budak case, the reason of the policy to made his works available in schools is because Croatian's euphoria, found themselves free from pressure of 'Serbian' regime and try to expressed it by turn their attention with everything that became old regime enemy. There are many examples like this in other countries, where the people who could free themselves from old regime turn their attention to adore everything that before became taboo.
OR, maybe Budak works are very good and there are no tainted in it that related with his criminal activity in real world. There are also some examples in this case.
Anyway, it's up to you to try find the truth by doing unpleasants thing or still hold your believe without doing anything. After all, every people has right to hold his/her believe as long as it didn't harm other people. Or, you could follow the good examples from someone while didn't follow the bad one from the same person. 8)

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Post by Spy » 16 Jun 2004 09:48

ninoo wrote: Bless the people who like to help others.
That's right. :)

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Post by Marcus » 16 Jun 2004 21:02

A sidetrack was split off into a new thread entitled "Tito - war criminal?".

/Marcus

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Post by Marcus » 23 Oct 2007 08:47

A post was split off into a new thread: Andrea Artukovich: Architect of the genocide.

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