Horthy & Jews

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CB1
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Horthy & Jews

Postby CB1 » 30 Oct 2012 15:44

[Split from "Hungarian park to be named after Admiral Miklós Horthy"]

The Jewish laws were formulated in such a way that fitted the needs of Jewish people in the high society. I remember reading the recollections of J. F. Montgomery, I think in this book:
http://www.amazon.com/Discussing-Hitler-Advisors-Diplomacy-1934-1941/dp/9639241563/ref=sr_1_3?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1338940334&sr=1-3

He visited two prominent Jewish industrialists (perhaps Ferenc Chorin and Móric Kornfeld) just after the first Jewish Act was passed in 1938 and asked them how they felt about it. They told him that before the Parliament passed they had the chance to have it examined by their lawyers and it was OK.

This (or rather the effect of second JA of 1939) was to some extent portrayed in the film Sunshine (roll to 1:35:35):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=--DgEEmYTm4

These laws of course made the life of thousands of not so lucky Jews miserable, but Horthy's bridge partners were OK and could continue their business. And they were grateful. After Horthy was exiled, Ferenc Chorin footed the bill of his stay in Estoril, Portugal.

Bye,
Krisz

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CB1
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Re: Horthy & Jews

Postby CB1 » 11 Nov 2012 14:28

Hi,

In the meantime I found the book. So this is the source (page 179-180):
http://www.libri.hu/konyv/roosevelt-kovete-budapesten.html

JF Montgomery discusses the new law with Fülöp Weiss (1859 Pest - 1942 Zürich) and Viktor Bátor (1891 Komárom - 1967 New York), both bankers of Pesti Magyar Kereskedelmi Bank.

The date is 7APR1938. Weiss said that the law was elaborated with their consent and they fully agreed with it. Weiss also said that he was a Jew but would count as Christian as soon as it was passed so he could hardly wait.

Darányi and Imrédy walked Bátor through the points the day before and explained that it was imperative to pass this law to appease the anti-semites in the parliament and they hoped that this will do.

The law prescribed that 95 percent of newly hired people in the financial, legal and medical sectors must be Christian until a 80:20 ratio is reached.

As Jews were treated Christians if the converted before 1AUG1919 or served in WW1 most Jews were exempt from the effects. Pesti Magyar Kereskedelmi Bank had to retire 10 colleagues en each of the following 5 years and that was all.

Weiss said that although the law was drastc from a certain perspective, they were satisfied with it.

Both Weiss and Bátor confirmed that they would welcome - in fact push for - Imrédy to become prime minister.

Bye,
Krisz

PS: Bátor later left Hungary and made it to the USA. He even published a few books, like:
http://www.amazon.com/Vietnam-diplomatic-tragedy-origins-involvement/dp/B007QBF7KO/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1352640410&sr=1-1

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Re: Horthy & Jews

Postby Marcus Wendel » 24 Nov 2012 08:38

An off-topic post by Michael Mills discussing post-war legislation in other countries was removed.

/Marcus

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Re: Horthy & Jews

Postby Marcus Wendel » 25 Nov 2012 10:06

An additional off-topic post by Michael Mills discussing post-war legislation in other countries was removed.

/Marcus

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Re: Horthy & Jews

Postby michael mills » 25 Nov 2012 11:32

The law prescribed that 95 percent of newly hired people in the financial, legal and medical sectors must be Christian until a 80:20 ratio is reached.


That legislation is an example of "positive discrimination" and is by no means unusual or specifically anti-Jewish. It is a common feature of "affirmative action" programs, applied in cases where the professions and upper echelons of the economy have historically been dominated by one ethnic group and other ethnic groups have been under-represented.

It is not necessarily based on racial criteria, but rather on socio-economic considerations, as was the case in inter-war Hungary. The aim of the Hungarian legislation was to increase the representation of the majority ethnic Hungarian population in the professions, and in that respect was similar to other "affirmative actions" at that time and later.

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Re: Horthy & Jews

Postby CB1 » 26 Nov 2012 21:38

That legislation is an example of "positive discrimination" and is by no means unusual or specifically anti-Jewish. It is a common feature of "affirmative action" programs, applied in cases where the professions and upper echelons of the economy have historically been dominated by one ethnic group and other ethnic groups have been under-represented.

It is not necessarily based on racial criteria, but rather on socio-economic considerations, as was the case in inter-war Hungary. The aim of the Hungarian legislation was to increase the representation of the majority ethnic Hungarian population in the professions, and in that respect was similar to other "affirmative actions" at that time and later.


Hi,

I would not say it was "affirmative action". I think the aim was to show that the government is tough on Jews so that extremists were satisfied. Simultaneously, it granted conditions for Jews to count as non-Jews (service in WW1, baptism). Later that changed for the worse.

Bye,
Krisz

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Re: Horthy & Jews

Postby michael mills » 27 Nov 2012 02:10

It was not being all that tough on Jews. It only appeared to be so (which of course may have been one its aims, appearance being as important as objective reality in any action by a government).

The political aim was to achieve a ratio of 80% gentiles to 20% Jews in the free professions. Since Jews represented only about 5% of the population of Hungary, that allowed the representation of Jews in the free professions to be four times that of their representation in the general population.

So it cannot be said that Jews were being forced out of the free professions, since they were still to be permitted to be over-represented by a factor of four.

Certainly the number of Jews in the free professions was to be reduced, but that was because they had hitherto been grossly over-represented. The aim of the Hungarian Government was to increase the proportion of ethnic Hungarians in the free professions, by giving them preference in hiring and in admission to the universities.

That is why I said that the Hungarian legislation of the 1930s is similar to "affirmative action" legislation in other countries where the professions and higher levels of the economy have traditionally been dominated by ethnic minorities. The aim of such legislation is to increase the representation of the majority population through preferential hiring and access to training.

The tendency is to see only the the disbenefit to the population group affected by the legislation, namely the Jewish minority in Hungary, and accordingly to view the Hungarian legislation as simply a component of the historical phenomenon of anti-Jewish persecution in Europe, rather than to see it as a rectification of an ethnic imbalance in the structure of the Hungarian economy which had developed in the course of the 19th Century.

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Re: Horthy & Jews

Postby armenmagyar » 21 May 2013 02:59

As strange as it might seem, it might be very difficult to come up with an ethnic Hungarian whose ancestors were all Magyars. Hungary was the first multi-national country in Europe. It was made of a mixture of races and nationalities. Croatia was part of Hungary. Much of Slovakia was part of Hungary. There were many Germans (and some Austrians) and some Armenians as well. Don't forget gypsies. When WWI ended and Hungary was partitioned, many of the educated and elite of society returned to what remained Hungary proper. Many of them were Jewish (and they were loyal Hungarians). The laws under Horthy allowed the extremists to gain an upper hand for what I'm sure was hoped to be a little while only. During that period, most of the Hungarian Jews died. The remaining ones would for the most part, feel no loyalty to Hungary what so ever. Although the laws were written ostensibly to ensure that "Hungarians" occupied important jobs on a more even basis, they really were aimed against the Jewish part of the Hungarian population. If you were to look over the names of Hungarians, you would probably be surprised to discover how many there were of non-Hungarian background. Many also had at least some Jewish ancestry.

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Re: Horthy & Jews

Postby Ponury » 20 Jun 2013 16:06

How it used to say, SS Colonel Eichmann "Hungarians gave us their Jews to such" ....


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