Polish atrocities against Germans

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Chief Whip
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Polish atrocities against Germans

Post by Chief Whip » 28 Apr 2002 17:46

In the wake of the Versailler Vertrag, many Germans found themselves living in Polish territory and ruled by Poles. Poland was highly hostile to Germany and especially the German minority which found itself dislocated, something that spawned from even before W.W.I but would reach its peak after the first World War.

The first Polish atrocities against Germans took place during the what is called “dritten polnischen Aufstands” (the ‘third Polish uprise’) in Upper Silesia in May and June 1921. (1)

On the fifteenth of May 1927 an anti-German pogrom took place in Rybnik. (2)

Starting from April/May 1939 regularly assaults started taking place, the atrocities were no longer sporadic but the increasing hate-feelings of the Poles started to show. Several months before Germany invaded Poland, the news and radio services in Poland spread the message that; “daß im Kriegsfalle kein einheimischer Feind lebend entrinnen wird”. (3)

Translated:

In the case of war, no ethnical enemy (meaning the Germans living in Poland) will escape alive.”

Also before the outbreak of war, the Poles constructed two concentration camps where the German population was to be brought too after being arrested, and, if we listen to the Polish media, annihilated. One was situated at Polowanie, the other one at Niemcow. (4)

The outbreak of the war on 1.9.39 between Germany and Poland was to seal the fate for a lot of Germans. The hunt against them began immediately, as planned by the Polish authorities. The main centre of outbreak of these pogroms was the city of Bromberg, where German inhabitans were slaughtered like beasts. This day is known in German history as “Bromberger Blutsonntag” (5). Lodz, the Polish corridor and Ostpreußen were also the background of Polish deportations and atrocities.


Murdered, pregnant, German woman during the anti-German pogroms of September 1939. She was killed and buried. Even after her death, birth took place as can be seen from her dead child which did not yet left the womb entirely.

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Deportations started with lists of all German residents who were to be arrested and deported. These lists had been long prepared. Officially, the ground on which these people were arrested and deported concluded ‘espionage’ or ‘subversive activity’. The arrested civilians were brought to Eastern-Poland on foot-marches. Those, who could not follow, were struck dead. Of the 700 arrested Germans from Obornik, 231 were killed during the march (6). The perpetrators of these acts were Polish policemen and paramilitary youth-units.

The Ukrainian minority in Poland also suffered from these attacks by Poles. (7)

Poland now admits that these atrocities took place, and the government has come up with the number of 3.841 casualties. German sources, however, established a total of 5.490 deaths and missing people, with hints that the total number is likely to be over 6.000. (8)

1. “Die Geschichte der polnischen Nation 1918-1978”, Hans Roos, p. 180.
2. Alfred Bohmann, “Menschen und Grenzen”, p. 38.
3. Peter Aurich, “Der deutsch-polnische September 1939”, p. 48, Theodor Bierschenk, “Die deutsche Volksgruppe in Polen 1934-1939” p. 319
4. Zayas, Alfred M. de/Rabus, Walter: “Die Wehrmacht-Untersuchungsstelle” p. 249
5. Mühlfenzl, Rudolf, “Geflohen und vertrieben”, p. 36
6. Nawratil, Heinz, “Schwarzbuch der Vertreibung 1945-1948”, p. 43-52
7. Ibid. op. cit.: de Zayas
8. Zayas/Rabus, p. 244 (an estimated 4000-5000 casualties) op.cit.: Wehrmacht-Untersuchungsstelle + Schubert, Günter: ‘Das Unternehmen "Bromberger Blutsonntag" ‘, p. 199.

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Rob S., my dear fellow, I hope you learned something from this article and I would urge to ignore Polish children such as “HETMAN” who blabs about ‘respect’ while he should hold his mouth when it comes down to respect. He has already apologised on several occasions for his clearly naïve and utterly childish anti-German/lying behaviour, but he has still a lot to learn.

---

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Re: Polish atrocities against Germans

Post by Davey Boy » 29 Apr 2002 03:38

Chief Whip wrote:In the wake of the Versailler Vertrag, many Germans found themselves living in Polish territory and ruled by Poles. Poland was highly hostile to Germany and especially the German minority which found itself dislocated, something that spawned from even before W.W.I but would reach its peak after the first World War.


Indeed, and what were those Germans doing on land that was ethnically Polish ever since the formation of the Polish state? Have you ever asked yourself that question? They were put there by the Prussians who set out to forcibly Germanize all of western and northern Poland under their control.


The first Polish atrocities against Germans took place during the what is called “dritten polnischen Aufstands” (the ‘third Polish uprise’) in Upper Silesia in May and June 1921. (1)


Well, after many years of repression at the hands of the Prussian thugs, some Poles lost their cool, to put it mildly. You can't treat people like shit for generations and not expect some sort of reaction. As a result, both the Poles and Germans suffered because of idiotic Prussian policies.


Starting from April/May 1939 regularly assaults started taking place, the atrocities were no longer sporadic but the increasing hate-feelings of the Poles started to show. Several months before Germany invaded Poland, the news and radio services in Poland spread the message that; “daß im Kriegsfalle kein einheimischer Feind lebend entrinnen wird”. (3)

Translated:

In the case of war, no ethnical enemy (meaning the Germans living in Poland) will escape alive.”

Also before the outbreak of war, the Poles constructed two concentration camps where the German population was to be brought too after being arrested, and, if we listen to the Polish media, annihilated. One was situated at Polowanie, the other one at Niemcow. (4)


The high tensions between Poles and Germans meant that the ethnic German community was extremely pro-Nazi. That kind of thing was hard for the Poles to ignore, and yes, many went bananas after the Nazi invasion.

But having said that, I haven't read anything about plans to "annihilate" the Germans in camps. In fact, many etnnic Germans served in the Polish army and fought against the Nazis. The fact that they were accepted into the Polish army contradicts the general gist of your argument here. There was an article about one of these guys, called Alfred Reiter, in the Polish press recently. I can post it here but it's in Polish and I can't be shagged translating it.


The outbreak of the war on 1.9.39 between Germany and Poland was to seal the fate for a lot of Germans. The hunt against them began immediately, as planned by the Polish authorities. The main centre of outbreak of these pogroms was the city of Bromberg, where German inhabitans were slaughtered like beasts. This day is known in German history as “Bromberger Blutsonntag” (5). Lodz, the Polish corridor and Ostpreußen were also the background of Polish deportations and atrocities.


Yeh, well the Germans committed atrocities as soon as they crossed the border. These were planned way before the aggression and mostly targeted people who had no hand in any crimes against ethnic Germans, and who certainly weren't invloved in any partizan warfare. They included politicians, academics, doctors, scientists, journalists, and even their wives. Also, if you check the body count you'd see that the Germans put the Poles to absolute shame in that respect.


Murdered, pregnant, German woman during the anti-German pogroms of September 1939. She was killed and buried. Even after her death, birth took place as can be seen from her dead child which did not yet left the womb entirely.


I'm gonna pretend I'm Scott Smith for a second:"Hmm, to me it looks like she died as a result of still birth. That's the logical conclusion. After all, how do we know she was murdered?"


Deportations started with lists of all German residents who were to be arrested and deported. These lists had been long prepared. Officially, the ground on which these people were arrested and deported concluded ‘espionage’ or ‘subversive activity’. The arrested civilians were brought to Eastern-Poland on foot-marches. Those, who could not follow, were struck dead. Of the 700 arrested Germans from Obornik, 231 were killed during the march (6). The perpetrators of these acts were Polish policemen and paramilitary youth-units.

The Ukrainian minority in Poland also suffered from these attacks by Poles. (7)

Poland now admits that these atrocities took place, and the government has come up with the number of 3.841 casualties. German sources, however, established a total of 5.490 deaths and missing people, with hints that the total number is likely to be over 6.000. (8)


Over 6000? Quite frankly, I thought it was a lot more than that.

---

Rob S., my dear fellow, I hope you learned something from this article and I would urge to ignore Polish children such as “HETMAN” who blabs about ‘respect’ while he should hold his mouth when it comes down to respect. He has already apologised on several occasions for his clearly naïve and utterly childish anti-German/lying behaviour, but he has still a lot to learn.


Maybe I do have a lot to learn, but not nearly as much as you. I have accepted that the Poles committed crimes during WWII. You, on the other hand, obviously have a major problem in admitting that the Germans also acted like a bunch of savages on many occasions.

And if you're going to accuse me of lying, then I would appreciate it if you actually posted an example. Otherwise, it just looks like you're blowing gass instead of putting forward a decent argument.

Btw, nice nick Chief. I suspect you're someone I've already met though. :wink:
Last edited by Davey Boy on 29 Apr 2002 07:07, edited 2 times in total.

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Post by Davey Boy » 29 Apr 2002 06:50

And Mr Whip, I would also like to remind you of this:


Haut doch die Polen, dass sie am Leben verzagen. Ich habe alles Mitgefuehl fuer ihre Lage, aber wir koennen, wenn wir bestehn wollen, nichts andres thun, als sie ausrotten; der Wolf kann nicht dafuer, dass er von Gott geschaffen ist, wie er ist, und man schiesst ihn doch dafuer todt, wenn man kann.

Otto Von Bismarck



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Scott Smith
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Re: Polish atrocities against Germans

Post by Scott Smith » 29 Apr 2002 08:38

HETMAN wrote:I'm gonna pretend I'm Scott Smith for a second:"Hmm, to me it looks like she died as a result of still birth. That's the logical conclusion. After all, how do we know she was murdered?"

David :wink: has a good point. We would need to ask the same questions as with any other atrocity claim. :)

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Re: Polish atrocities against Germans

Post by Roberto » 29 Apr 2002 09:40

Scott Smith wrote:
HETMAN wrote:I'm gonna pretend I'm Scott Smith for a second:"Hmm, to me it looks like she died as a result of still birth. That's the logical conclusion. After all, how do we know she was murdered?"

David :wink: has a good point. We would need to ask the same questions as with any other atrocity claim. :)


What questions is the Reverend talking about? The reasonable ones that are asked by criminal justice authorities and historians investigating the event in question (e.g. origin of the photograph, corroboration of its contents by other evidence), or the nonsensical ones asked by propagandists with a political agenda hell-bent on denying events that don't fit into their ideological bubble?

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TRUTH IN ADVERTISING...

Post by Scott Smith » 29 Apr 2002 10:48

Medojurgen wrote:What questions is the Reverend talking about?

Now our Portuguese Tribune is just speaking Doubletalk.

How about we play a game? I'll post some images and captions and you match the real captions to the real images. It might be fun. And enlightening.

Or, do you need some kind of omniscient oracle to tell you what is true and what isn't in order to save the bother of asking questions?

All important questions have already been asked by the Good Guys, right?
:mrgreen:

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Post by Laurent » 29 Apr 2002 11:29

Poland now admits that these atrocities took place, and the government has come up with the number of 3.841 casualties. German sources, however, established a total of 5.490 deaths and missing people, with hints that the total number is likely to be over 6.000. (8)


What is the time considered for this number, 1939, whole WWII, before the war and September campain ?

Comparing this numbers with those cited on the site pointed by the other thread on Polish atrocities (58 000), is seems obvious that the latter is just nazi wartime propaganda.

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Post by viriato » 29 Apr 2002 11:36

To Mr. Hetman

You seem to forget that the history of Poland is not so clear-cut as you try us to think. In first place West Prussia was inhabitated by the slovincian people on the western part, and prussians on the easter part, the river Vistula dividing more or less the two peoples. No poles lived there. Moreover when the first german (and north french, these being easily forgotten) colonists arrived they encountered a sparsely populated country meaning that they occupied not the same lands of the slovincians and prussians but the forested regions.

On the contrary you have reason to say that most of Posen/Wielkopolska (excuse if the polish name is not entirely correct) was already populated by poles. Germans colonists only populated the forested and thinly populated margins as in West Prussia and the towns (Gnesen/Gniezno, Pose/Poznan...). Germans were always a minority although a sisable one in Posen/Wielkopolska.

Regarding Silesia and for what I know it was already populated by poles. But when the first polish prince/dukes invited the german colonists (again a lot of them were north and east french) they discovered that they were very useful as they advanced a lot local agiculture and commerce. So they continously atracted more colonists and in less than a century germans were already a majority in Silesia. By the way Silesia was never conquered by the germans, Germany having received Silesia from the Luxemburgers, kings of Bohemia and then also german emperors, who by marriage had previously took possesion of it.

Regarding pressecution of poles I don't know of any massacres commited by the germans before 1918, that would have been a cause of later ressentment. Perhaps you could enlightning me on this respect...

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Post by Davey Boy » 29 Apr 2002 12:09

Viriato,

You seem to forget that the history of Poland is not so clear-cut as you try us to think. In first place West Prussia was inhabitated by the slovincian people on the western part, and prussians on the easter part, the river Vistula dividing more or less the two peoples. No poles lived there. Moreover when the first german (and north french, these being easily forgotten) colonists arrived they encountered a sparsely populated country meaning that they occupied not the same lands of the slovincians and prussians but the forested regions.


I never implied Polish history was clear-cut. Quite the opposite is true, and I know that.

What do you mean by "no Poles lived there"? Who do you consider Poles anway? If you mean the Polanie of the Poznan region, the original Poles, then you could say no Poles ever lived in Warsaw or Krakow. And taking it that far is nonsesne. At some point in time, those Slovician people you mention became Poles, and so did many of those German and Flemish settlers. And there were also Scottish and English settlers in that area too, and they all became Poles. They were thoroughly assimilated and you won't recognize their descendants in today's Poland.

On the contrary you have reason to say that most of Posen/Wielkopolska (excuse if the polish name is not entirely correct) was already populated by poles. Germans colonists only populated the forested and thinly populated margins as in West Prussia and the towns (Gnesen/Gniezno, Pose/Poznan...). Germans were always a minority although a sisable one in Posen/Wielkopolska.


Please don't lecture me about Poznan. Ity's my home town.

Regarding Silesia and for what I know it was already populated by poles. But when the first polish prince/dukes invited the german colonists (again a lot of them were north and east french) they discovered that they were very useful as they advanced a lot local agiculture and commerce. So they continously atracted more colonists and in less than a century germans were already a majority in Silesia. By the way Silesia was never conquered by the germans, Germany having received Silesia from the Luxemburgers, kings of Bohemia and then also german emperors, who by marriage had previously took possesion of it.


Whatever. The point is that during Prussian rule, Poles were forced out of these areas, and more German settlers pumped in. These Germans, unlike many of the earlier ones, did not become Polonized. The Poles thus saw them as invaders, who were turning ethnically Polish land into Germany.

Regarding pressecution of poles I don't know of any massacres commited by the germans before 1918, that would have been a cause of later ressentment. Perhaps you could enlightning me on this respect...


No, there were no large scale massacres. But Poles were second-class citizens in their own land. People were brutalized and yes, even killed by the occupying Prussian army. Being Polish meant you had a hard time finding work and buying land. Your children would also be forced to speak German in school. Many Poles were forciby resettled into Russian occupied Poland, or to the Ruhr.

You try to live like that for a couple of generations and then not hate Germans. Of course, those who became good Germans were left alone, but why should anyone be forced to make that sort of a decision at gun point?

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Post by michael mills » 29 Apr 2002 14:18

Whatever. The point is that during Prussian rule, Poles were forced out of these areas, and more German settlers pumped in. These Germans, unlike many of the earlier ones, did not become Polonized. The Poles thus saw them as invaders, who were turning ethnically Polish land into Germany.


What "Hetman" forgets is that the Prussians themselves were not originally a Germanic people, but were a Baltic people similar to the Lithuanians who were germansied over several centuries in the Middle Ages. There is a famous "Simplicissimus" cartoon of 1906 showing German policemen chasing Polish children to school with the words "Deutsch muesst ihr lernen! Wir Preussen haben es ja auch lernen muessen!" ("You have to learn German. We Prussians also had to learn it").

Before the growth of nationalism in the 19th century, ethnic identity in the German-Polish borderlands was fairly fluid. A large part of the population must have been bilingual, changing their ethnic adherence from time to time according to circumstances. And the Prussian Government was not particularly anti-Polish, at least until the growth of POlish nationalism and separatism after the middle of the 19th century. What Prussian rulers from Frederick the Great onward were concerned to do was to make their kingdom stronger and more prosperous by fostering a more advanced material and technical civilisation, which at that time meant the introduction of German social structures, as opposed to the more backward and anarchic structures typical of the Polish state. However, they did not discriminate against the Poles as such, since the interest of the Hohenzollern dynasty in the 18th and early 19th centuries was the development of their domain, whatever the ethnicity of its population, rather than the propagation of Pan-Germanism. For example, they did not persecute the Catholic Church (unlike the Polish Government, which as late as the 18th century was still sporadically persecuting ethnic German Protestants).

When Frederick the Great seized Silesia from the Habsburgs in the 1740s, it was already ethnically German for the most part, although there was still a sizable Polish population. Although germanisation continued under Hohenzollern rule, that was merely the continuation of a process that had been underway for centuries. And Silesia had been legally part of the Holy Roman Empire for several centuries.

It seems to me that "Hetman" is projecting late 19th century Polish nationalism back into a period when it did not exist.

I wonder if he is a follower of the doctrines of Roman Dmowski, the anti-German, anti-Semitic founder of the National Democratic Party (Endecja).

The use of the name "hetman" for a Polish nationalist is paradoxical, since it is a Ukrainian term (of German origin) rather than a Polish one, denoting the leader of a band of cossacks. Paradoxical, since the Ukrainian Cossacks were sworn enemies of the Poles from the 17th century onward.

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Post by Dan » 29 Apr 2002 14:26

"However, they did not discriminate against the Poles as such, since the interest of the Hohenzollern dynasty in the 18th and early 19th centuries was the development of their domain, whatever the ethnicity of its population, rather than the propagation of Pan-Germanism. For example, they did not persecute the Catholic Church (unlike the Polish Government, which as late as the 18th century was still sporadically persecuting ethnic German Protestants)."

This is an important point, remember before Darwinism there wasn't any racism as we know it today, religion, and to a lesser degree culture, were considered much more important that race. There weren't, for instance, any laws against interracial marriage even in South Africa and the US in the 18th century, or anywhere else, I would imagine.

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Post by Davey Boy » 29 Apr 2002 14:28

Hello Michael,

The use of the name "hetman" for a Polish nationalist is paradoxical, since it is a Ukrainian term (of German origin) rather than a Polish one, denoting the leader of a band of cossacks. Paradoxical, since the Ukrainian Cossacks were sworn enemies of the Poles from the 17th century onward.


You just shot yourself in the foot with that last comment.

The Ukrainian Cossacks took the term Hetman from the Polish Commonwealth. Because early on, they were a part of the Polish army, and thus their leaders were knows as Hetmans.

Here are some famous POLISH Hetmans:

Jan Tarnowski (1488-1561, Grand Royal Hetman from 1527). Victor at Obertyn (1531) against the Moldavians and at Starodub (1535) against the Muscovites. He developed, among other things, headquarters services, horse artillery, field hospitals at Royal expense and a corps of sappers. He preached a doctrine of flexibility.

Jan Zamoyski (Grand Royal Hetman 1581-1605). He successfully defended Krakow (1587) against the Austrians, defeating them at Byczyna (1588). He defeated the Wallachians at Bukowa (1600) and captured the Swedish held towns of Wolmar, Felin and Bialy Kamien in the war for Livonia (1601-1602).

Jan Karol Chodkiewicz (1560-1621, Grand Lithuanian Hetman from 1605). Victor against the Swedes at Bialy Kamien (1604) and Kircholm (1605), and at Chocim (1621) against the Turks, where he died of illness.

Stanislaw Zolkewski (1547-1620, Grand Royal Hetman from 1613). Smashed a massive Muscovite army at Kluszyn (1609) which opened the road to Moscow, was killed at Cecora (1620) against the Turks. With Chodkiewicz he defeated a rebel army at Guzow (1607).

Stanislaw Koniecpolski (1591-1646, Royal Field Hetman from 1618 and Grand Royal Hetman from 1632). He was present at Cecora where he was captured. Victor against the Tatars at Martynow (1624) and Ochmatow (1644), he fought a successful campaign against a Cossack rebellion (1625) and halted Turkish invasion forces at Kamienic Podolski (1634 and 1635). With only weak forces he fought Gustav Adolphus to a stalemate in Prussia, defeating him at Trzcina (1629).


So take care when you're trying to teach me my own history.

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Post by Davey Boy » 29 Apr 2002 14:36

What "Hetman" forgets is that the Prussians themselves were not originally a Germanic people, but were a Baltic people similar to the Lithuanians who were germansied over several centuries in the Middle Ages. There is a famous "Simplicissimus" cartoon of 1906 showing German policemen chasing Polish children to school with the words "Deutsch muesst ihr lernen! Wir Preussen haben es ja auch lernen muessen!" ("You have to learn German. We Prussians also had to learn it").


That's debatable. Many Prussians were of German origin. Maybe even the majority. And that was a result of German settlers streaming in from the west to work the land for the Teutonic Knights. Sure, many were also of ancient Prussian, as well as of Slavic, stock.

But why are we debating this? If you're trying to say that Poles and Polish culture weren't repressed under Prussian rule then go and tell someone who'll believe in such fairy tales.

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Post by Davey Boy » 29 Apr 2002 14:45

Michael,

I'm still waiting for a reply. Tell me, why would the greatest Polish military commanders be known as Hetmans, if this was a term originally used by their sworn enemies? Is it because they had a DEEP SENSE OF IRONY you think? Huh?
Last edited by Davey Boy on 29 Apr 2002 16:25, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by michael mills » 29 Apr 2002 14:50

But why are we debating this? If you're trying to say that Poles and Polish culture weren't repressed under Prussian rule then go and tell someone who'll believe in such fairy tales.


Repressive measures were taken by the German Imperial Government in Posen Province particularly in the 1880s, during the "Kulturkampf", which was also directed against the Catholic Church. However, one of the measures taken to reduce the preponderance of the ethnic German population in Posen Province was to encourage large-scale migration of Poles to the Ruhr where rapid industrialisation was underway. Scores of thousands of ethnic Poles moved westward, and assimilated quite happily to the German Catholic culture of the Rhineland.

The number of Germans today of Polish origin, with Polish surnames, must number in the millions. Their ethnic Polish ancestors were not interested in propagating Polish nationalism, but rather with earning a decent living, which was more possible in the factories and coal-mines of the Ruhr than in the drab fields of Western Poland.

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